bedazzledx2

Yeah it does...just not for a while! Lately we've had really low entries and sometime there are not even three dogs on a pass so have to have stand in dogs anyway. Its the Judges decision and when its a big class, its a great way of splitting the stays. I love it as the qualifying dogs at least have a chance without a non qualifying dog potentially mucking them up. Personally I never do stays unless I'm on a qualifying score.

Shame about the COP very nice work otherwise Thats one drowned rat handler though!!!!

The command matters not!!! Dogs don't speak English so what matters is how you train it and what you reward. The command to 'stay' is probably superfluous but I still use it The concept for the dog should be to maintain position. And that is the problem with a lot of dogs. They think I'm not breaking my stay if I lie down, I'm still staying! My next dog I think I will teach maintaining a position, not maintaining a stay. Much like ness is doing with Kenzie, if she says sit, it means sit there until released. Not sure how I'll go with that though, hard to break old habits using stay commands I have done a bit with Ruby already, and she is getting the idea.

Nor do the top level Obedience competitors (speaking for WA) Interestingly the top level agility trainers don't use physical corrections

Sadly poor training exists with both positive and correction based training. For myself I have found good, well planned, consistent positive training is fast and effective. I have well trained dogs who have not been trained with corrections. If you want to get technical I have used NRM's but less so the more I learn. I have found that if you have to use a NRM more than twice in training session you have overfaced the dog and need to look to your teaching. The fallout from corrections depends on your training philosophy....I do a lot of splitting rather than lumping and a ton of shaping. In order for this to work the dog has to feel very confident in offering behaviours and many correction trained dogs find that difficult. The upshot of well done positive training is you get a dog who 'owns' the behaviour and is not afraid to learn new ones. The more they learn the faster they learn the next thing and it becomes great fun for everyone. Your timing becomes critical as you are not looking for what to correct but what to reward.

Sounds like a really good plan RM . Keep us updated.

Wow! Aren't they just georgeous!!!! Congratulations to all ;)

:D :D I've already mentioned a few, the possibility of the correction actually impeding learning (and I realise that everyone believes that they would never be so unclear with a correction, yet I see it over and over...), the suggestion that it is maybe not always faster (and how would you know anyway? How would one test that objectively? If you can suggest a way that doesn't require an enormous, tightly controlled sample I would genuinely love to know!) So if we don't know if it's actually any faster or that it has benefited learning, and it isn't necessary in the example under discussion, I would make a decision not to based on that alone. I know for certain that we can get a very high level of handler attention amidst distraction using positive reinforcement, and that it is not a long, slow road. We also need to consider the handler. The minute they walk out the door they haven't got you coaching them any more. Positive reinforcement carries a much lower risk than corrections; you can't "over-reward", you can mistime a reward but it usually doesn't cause any anxiety or uncertainty, a reward won't shut a soft dog down, even a poorly timed reward provides useful classical conditioning, food is associated with the parasympathetic nervous system (calming processes), corrections are associated with the sympathetic nervous system (fight or flight processes) - remember we are talking about dog owners here and not professionals. Sometimes the effects of corrections cannot be seen immediately. They might be effective in stopping the unwanted behaviour, but increase other unwanted behaviours. There is always a response to corrections. On the flip-side, reward has behavioural benefits beyond the immediate behaviour. I am also of the opinion that a training relationship strongly weighted towards reward leads to a stronger personal relationship. I can't prove that, but it is the relationship that I would prefer to have. I think it's ugly to be correcting your dog when it isn't necessary. I don't like being around people who do that to other people, either. My rugby coach doesn't mind giving us (as a team) a spray when warranted, but the respect he has earned comes from his ability to make every player (as an individual) feel like they are worth something to him and the team. A note on reliability - it has been amply demonstrated to me through observing good trainers, having done it myself, and thousands of lab experiments that +R can lead to extraordinarily high levels of reliability. So can corrections. +R is generally a little slower in achieving a moderate level of reliability than reward and correction together, but ultimately both end up in the same place in the same time if taken to high levels. There are exceptions, the cat-chaser for example where we can punish something very specific and controlled set-ups would prove very difficult, but the example under discussion is not one of these exceptions. It's a really big topic, debated for many years. Skinner came to the conclusion (based on the empirical data available to him) that punishment was unreliable and unpredictable. Since then we've learned that this is not the case, and I think the positive training movement conveniently ignores the weight and breadth of available evidence on this topic. Still, people seem to attribute almost mystical properties to whatever "method" they prefer. I've never seen very mild corrections work for anything other than very mild distractions for long, turn the volume of the distraction up and the dog continues his unwanted behaviours. At this point you have a choice: - continue with low level distractions, then build up slowly, using more mild corrections - continue with low level distractions, then build up slowly, using reward - increase the correction It's not up to me to convince you which you should choose, but my choice is to build up slowly with reward wherever I can.

I had a station bred kelpie that we used to say was ADHD and for the first few years drove us mental!!! She lived to a ripe old age of 16 and bless her, was still annoying (in a nice doddery way) till the day she died! The others would go to bed but she was up late and finding things to do. She was the reason I got hooked on obedience and agility trying to find an outlet for her abundant energy. Oh if I knew then what I know today!!! I would have her again in a heartbeat! Not the dog for everyone but when you tap all that energy in a positive way what she could achieve would be breathtaking! It may be that giving Jane LOTS to do will help. Mental exercise can be quite exausting and this is a dog that may benefit from a program of training, exercise and crate training along with self control games. Does she play tuggy? I had a cat on the infuser but didn't notice such a dramatic effect....valium worked best for him From what I understand it mimics the scent of a lactating bitch so she may well be psychologically hooked on it. Ah the joy of living in the country far far away from the experts!!! Certainly would be great to have a chat to someone who might shed some light on the situation! I even tried the dog loving doctors at work but they are still trying to get their heads around artificial pheromones so weren't much good. Please don't misunderstand me, Jane is great behaviour wise now. I think thats why I was so surprised at the change in her behaviour when the dap was turned off for 10 hours. It was so extreme!!

Have pm'd you.

Woo Hoo!!! Congratulations!!! The last leg is always the hardest!

I can hear you screaming from here!!!! :laugh: Fair enough for the not sitting in the wet...I wouldn't want to either and maybe she has a sensitive tush!! Any time a dog baulks at a jump my first reaction is to check if she is sore. If she has had no problems up to now it wouldn't hurt to consult a vet/physio.

Posting a huge brag for Ptolomy as she doesn't have internet access at the moment. What a Royal she had with her Toller kids!!!! Not only winning the obedience with Cider and Scoota last Sunday, today Scoota took out both Masters Gamblers and Masters Snooker!!!! Go the obedience dogs!!!!

Sorry, I replied befor reading the rest of the thread!!! Oooops! I know you can buy tiny squeakers from the dog shop which you can hide in your hand and lots of people also use a squeaky mouse so I think it would be fine. A loud one would be a definate no no! I don't show but I would being giving daggers to anybody who took a squeaker in the lineup! But that's just me no not the lineup i'd find that rude too lol just her class (normally we are on our own) though i think she is getting better with the bait i used her biscuits this morning and no lead and i got her to free stack oh yeah. just the attention i get when she sees a squeaky toy in my hand (without squeaking) is amazing he chest lifts up her head and ears are all alert she carries herself better lol better keep practicing

It might be allowed but it could also get you killed by the competition

Woo Hoo..it worked! OK first use something like Windows picture manager to get your file below 200kb and then put it where its easy to find...I use the desktop. Then just below this window on the right is a little box with Choose file and a green UPLOAD button.... Press choose file and find your picture....then go to the left corner where it says Attachments and a drop down box that says Manage Current Attachments. Your file should be there. Then go to the right and press the green UPLOAD button. Success!!! (hopefully!)

Testing....if it works I'll tell you how I did it ;) The cropped files or the ones with you in the frame too? Ummm, lets go with the uncropped and I can see how bad I looked in the ring. I can always crop them again. Thanks. On thier way RS just below where you type there is a box that says Attcahements and you browse for a file thorugh there. Nope, I can't see it! Maybe I turned it off in my settings or something Can I be a complete pest and ask if someone can please throw up a quick screenshot of what their attachments bit looks like? Seriously, it's driving me bonkers cos I can't see it!!

Hows about teaching the dog an appropriate response to a distraction before the need ever arises for a correction? Too simple? Ok get out the prong collar

2 out of 3 Italian greyhound puppies are still in the Midland Gate (WA) pet shop. Poor little things look quite stressed. $900 and first vaccination is all I could find out.

I would check with a few vets in your area. Some areas seem to be particularly prone to Parvo and the vets will know if your area is the case. Speak with your vet and find out if they have had any parvo cases there lately .... especially if that is where you are going for puppy classes. My breeder isn't too keen for me to take my puppy to the vet puppy classes and recommended an alternative. I did check with my vet though and they haven't had a case of parvo for 18 months.

I also hated the Salsa clip and yes Pax it would actually DQ in competition here. We are not allowed to dress the dogs in anything other than a pretty collar for a start. I haven't looked beyond the first few seconds of it as its something I really don't like. I judge DWD and some of the routines are stunning and always they are respectful to the dog. Agree with you about clicker and trick training...its actually really good for novice trainers to learn timing and observation. I started to train tricks when I first started with clicker training, trick traing adds no pressure to the handler, doesn't matter if you stuff it up, it's all just fun training. IMO, to the dog, all taught behaviors are just tricks. how can the dog tell the difference between shaking hands and drop, just behaviors on cue. and all tricks. I don't like the dancing salsa clip of the Goldie, it spends way too much time on it's hind legs. It is a poor example of dancing with dogs and does the sport no justice. If it was in a competition here (from the little bit I know) I think it would score badly. Did not like it and felt really sad for the dog.

Well my obedience champions wouldn't either!!! They wouldn't know what the sound meant as they have never been corrected with a choke chain. The sound of the fridge door has meaning...... :cool: Oh, so fashion forward Jed! :p We did a test at obedience training once, with the dog heeling off-lead but the handler held the chain and made the zip noise to see if the dogs would correct their position. Some dogs did but not mine - not well trained enough? Probably.

Me too. Dogs hate being laughed at but love being laughed with....big difference!!! Most things I teach my dogs are 'tricks' in the big scheme of things. Dogs don't really understand 'don't' but have no problem learning alternative behaviours which can be sit, stand, turn etc which really are all tricks and very useful ones too. I think some people think it's undignified, making the dog do something "cute" just for humans to laugh at them. I can understand that since I wouldn't teach a trick that I felt made my dog look undignified. We just do the dignified kind of tricks.

No, I'm a bit anal about what I feed my guys and the pigs ears you buy in the pet shops have been treated, bleached, irradiated etc so its not something I ever give them. I saw the pigs ears at the butcher and thought it would be a good alternative but I haven't tried them. I worry about them being swallowed after becoming a chewed blob of cartilage...thats what mine would do! Lots of people feed pigs ears so I'm sure its just me!!!! (Bedazzled - Do get any of the pigs ears and dry them out yourself for the dogs? Oscar loves a good pigs ear.)

I keep getting error messages when I try to look at this link. No matter, I've seen it before and basically if your a fan of CM and/or a choke chain training system then you'll like it. I'm not, but that's just me. It's a double collar system to keep the choke chain high on the dog's neck just under the jaw as that's the most effective place for the dog to feel it. If you are going to train this way then you really do need guidance from someone who has a lot of training skills and ideally is flexible enough to know lots of ways to teach your dog.