cry123

Glad everyone liked the photos. It was a really interesting day. Most interesting parts for me were: 1. Complete lack of treats. Dogs worked for the pleasure of herding the sheep and also for pats at the end from handler. I only ever saw a dog lose focus once and that was when his handler basically took over and shut him out of the process. The dog seemed to say "screw this", leapt out of the yard and didn't want to come back. For the rest of the dogs, they were totally attentive and torn between staring at their handler and at the sheep. Defiantely in our case with the kelpies and BC's, a pat is a enough. They dont need treats to know they have done well. 2. The distance work - I was impressed by how far away the dogs were when responding to commands. 3. Some handlers used 'right' and 'left' and some used 'come by', 'over' and other commands to get their dogs to go certain places. 4. I noticed that when the handlers said 'sit', very very rarely did the dog actually sit. Usually the dog would drop. I'm wondering if 'sit' is just a way to tell the dog to stop what it's doing and the handlers don't care if the dog sits or drops as long as it stops - but there was also the 'stop' command We generally use sit as a stop with the dog on the ground (so either a sit or a drop) and we use stop to stop on thier feet, or as a pause what they are doing type of thing. 5. One handler's 'speak' command seemed to be 'spooks' when he wanted the dog to bark and rush the last sheep into the pen so that he could close the gate. For the most part the dogs were not barky but did occasionally bark to get a sheep through the gate. I saw no nipping - there was one dog that got overexcited and accidentally slammed a sheep into the fence - he ended up being disqualified shortly after because he just wasn't making any progress with the sheep. 6. I wasn't sure if the sheep backing was always compulsory i.e. necessary to pass or if it's something that just happened every session. I got quite nervous for the dogs when they slipped from the sheep backs and ended up at the feet of the sheep I dont think it is compulsary but to be effective in packing the race and then unpacking they do need to back. 7. For me, the divide between dog intitiative and handler instruction wasn't entirely clear. To be honest, for the good dogs - it looks as if the dog was doing almost all of the hard work with just a little bit of guidance from the handler. For some sessions, the handlers were calling out a lot of instructions and I couldn't tell if the dog was actually 'disobeying' the instructions of 'showing initative' because it thought that it knew better. For instance, often the handler would tell the dog to sit and it would keep going. I think that sometime sthey would be disobeying. Sometimes they think they know better and other times they do actually know better. There is a fine line between these two. 8. Loved the Kelpies leaping over the yard fence to get in and out of the yard - so graceful and athletic. There were two sessions and we weren't entirely sure why they were different. The first was that the handler stood very far away and was not permitted to handle the dog or the sheep. In the second set of sessions, they actually walked around with the sheep, used their arms to push and shoo the sheep sometimes.

We do three sheep dog trialling and we do it with both broder collies and kelpies. We have some very good kelpies that do the three sheep trials. My OH won at Canberra last year at the Nationals with a kelpie. We are actually kelpie people at heart. My OH breeds kelpies that will do the three sheep work. You just have to have the right dogs. There are a lot of kelpies out there that give some kelpies a bad name!! lol Love trialling, my Oh loves doing ti with the kelpies, but he has been succesful with his border collies as well, but he is a kelpie man. I have just begun trialling but I have BC's.

We wish we where going, but work gets in the way!! lol We wont trial again until next year now......

We only travel our dogs in a ute, that is all we have!! (we have two utes) One of the utes, if they travel in are always tied in, and tied in properly (The right length and chain etc). They have to be, just stupidity if they are not. We have NEVER had a problem. Our other ute, a hilux, is fitted out with our dog cages. We do sheep dog trialling so we have a lot of dogs, both kelpies and BC's. Our ute has seven cages, each cage has its own water container. They are then covered with canvas. You would all be surprised at how COOL the canvas is. It has air vents and has really good air circulation. Our dogs travel really well. I do have some photos of our set up if you are interested, but I dont think it is really what you want. The whole back of our ute is cages. It works really well for us.

I think it can only be undesirable when people dont understand the traits. So many working bred dogs end up in the pound etc or people dont know how to handle them. (The barking, digging etc all boredom traits) but if you use these traits for good, like you have Gaylek, I think they make the most fantastic pets. Even though we have working dogs to do sheep dog trialling with, we wouldnt have anything other then a BC or a kelpie.

Jim Marshall in Scone. He is awesome, a very good friend of ours. He also knows lots of other people, but both his wife, Noreen, and him are great great people. There are a lot of people that do sheep dog trialling in Scone, not neccasilry herding, put you will be able to get some help. You should be able to get his number off the white pages. I do have his number, but I am not looking to give it out here!!

We have working border collies and keplies, (we do three sheep dog trialling as well as farm work) Not all border collies will have the herding instinct. We have just given a working bred border collie (both his mother and father are top dogs a long history of working dogs in the family, with some of the best lines in the country) away to a friend of ours. He simply didnt really want to be a working dog. He was over 12 months old, and so far has been given every opportunity to bring out his working instinct but sadly, he was just too casual and wanted to be a pet! He is not the first BC that we have given away as a family pet. We have kids so all of our dogs can easily fall into the "family pet" category, (and to be honest if they dont then they dont stay at our house). There is also different levels of herding instinct, some show a little bit and others show a lot. As mentioned above: barking, digging, chasing birds, chasing cars, chasing kids on bikes etc, chasing other dogs can all be signs of the herding intinct not being utilised.

Vickie is spot on. Much easier to learn to work a dog on sheep with a trained dog. There is far too much involved to explain in post! But you do use the rake to guide the dog around the sheep, usually in a round yard. Also use it to block the dog from crossing between you and the sheep. I would suggest that they look to get some lessons off Greg Prince. He is wonderful and is super helpful. A great guy with huge amounts of knowledge. He is based in Dubbo, NSW, but he does travel around the country doing schools.

I havent used these pastes in regards to dogs,but I have used similar things with horses. The thing with them is that they only work if the animals is lacking in these vitamins. Ohterwise it will have no effect!! The best thing that I have found to work in horses is a product called Mag-E. Nit sure if there is a similar product for dogs, but i would look into this.

What about just using a stick? A stick might work - I have been a bit slack and put it in the "too hard basket" lately but if I ever hope to 3 sheep trial him I will have to have a teach it. I haven't found in the driving that I have been doing for herding that it is a problem as I can arc him back. We have used arcing them back to give ground in three sheep trials one a few of ours that dont reverse. With have an Open dog who hates the reverse. The only way she will get off her sheep is to arc off them, so you can still trial without the reverse. It makes easier though. I reember watching my husband work this dog, and he had delivered the sheep and was walking back up the ground towards the first winding peg. She was in front of the sheep and they where walking onto her, and he just kept asking her to arc and went up the ground that way.

What about just using a stick?

We try to teach the reverse in a race if possible, we look to have a sheep in a headbale at the end of the race. We have the dog on a long rope, we will ask them to walk in, so they walk towards the sheep and then we ask them to back off (or whatever your reverse command is) and then with a garden rake well either tap it infront of them or push them gentle so that they step backwards. We keep them on the rope so that they are always looking forward, and cant turn away. If you dont have a race we still do the same method, even with out sheep. Have them on the rope. Ask them to walk in then use the rake to push them backwards as you say the reverse command. (Not sure if that made sense, it is easier to talk about it in person or demonstrate!! )

Well we dont do herding but for interests sake we teach them to balance and recall first (as well as a stop), then we teach them thier sides, usually done in a round yard and similar and then from there we will teach then to cast, which is an extension of thier sides. Then we teach them to drive, once they have thier sides well established, you should be able to ask them to move left or right as little or as much as needed. Then it is just about refining the commands and teaching them to walk in and reverse, etc etc.

Do you mean thier sides? (as in circling left and right around the sheep?)

Greg lives in Dubbo, in NSW, but he will do clinics anywhere. He regualry does clinics in Victoria, SA and Qld. I think he needs 12-15 people to run a school.

I agree. Greg is the best person to see if you want to learn about 3 sheep training or just basic training for any dog starting stock work. My initial reaction to the herding clinic was why bring out someone from overseas when there are so many good sheep dog trainers here? Is it that people are not prepared to help with dogs that are competing in herding rather than 3 sheep events? I went to a training day some years ago and was disappointed to hear some of the experienced people referring to pet Border Collies as fluffies. I had hoped things would have improved by now. They didn't have much good to say about Kelpies either but I don't worry about that. I know that Greg will help anyone and isnt restricted at 3 sheep triallers. His clinics are for "stock dog handlers", which covers everyone. He will help anyone and will not criticse thier dogs in a negative way at all. It is not his style.

Yes I taught them around obstacles as well but once they transfered the cue to stock then that was it with both of them - that is what they look for, lol. Mind you if I persisted I am sure I could get past that but I am not really worried about it, I only used items at home to develop the concept due to lack of stock. And typing this has given me a light bulb moment - I could kick start inside flanks the same way.... Although somtimes when you teach commands "dry" (as in not on sheep) they can loose some of thier natural work. They tend to respond solely to you and not react to the sheep. Which for us it has been a bad thing. We do do some work without sheep, mainly stops and reverse etc, but we really do try to do as much work as possible on sheep.

You really need to attend a clinic with Greg Prince. Apart from being one of the best handlers in Australia, he and his wife Jan are the nicest people!!

We have working border collies (we do three sheep dog trialling) and white in the breed is not uncommon at all. It can be a good thing, and also can be popular. For working BC's they just need to be strong, because they are white (or ones with a lot of white) tend to draw the sheep to them (and quiten the sheep right down) so they need to have the strength to be able to move them. We breed a litter both mother and father where the "normal" black and white border collie marked. However several of the pups had a lot of white on them, and one of the pups was almost pure white, it was just that 3 or 4 generations ago was a white dog.

I am not quite sure what you mean, but our ute has the tray with the three sides that drop down, and you can take the sides off. The ute dosent come standard with the tray, we had to pay extra to get this tray. The standard ones are the ones the same as the car, with just the back that drops down. Our canvas attaches tot he tray with hook thingy's and rubber band thingy's (not sure about the terminology!)

I find the canvas great. It is dry, warm in winter, cool in summer. Our Canvas is secure, yes you can get into the canvas part, but the cages can lock up. With our sides and back we have eyelits in the corners, so we can have them unzipped, and then put poles in them to make a little awening. It works well! (not sure if that makes sense!) I agree with what Black dog was saying as well.

That is a great setup mikelli! My OH would like that

We brought our Hilux new in November 2007. It is the BEST car. It tows our caravan and horse float like a dream!!!! It isnt a turbo either. It is a fantastic car. We havent had an ounce of trouble with it and is super comfy. It is also our "family" car so we go everywhere in. I love it. One of my good friends brought the same one as mine a couple of months earlier then i did and hers is just as great. I cant comment on the older ones though.

Ok I just got a few pictures of ours. It is similar to what Lucy's mama is talking about. There are a few things we would change, but this is the first one we have built ourselves and thier are a few teething problems, but overall it is good. The dogs love it and they stay cool and happy. (i hope these photos work!!)

We have a Hilux, which we have set up fpr our dogs. It is a little diferent to what you want, but we have a lot of dogs and do a lot of travelling. My husband and i do three sheep dog trialling, so we travelling with lots of dogs We have a crate on the back which is set up with seven cages, two at either sides and three across the back. The cages are all mesh and with have a top roof section which use for storage (it will carry dog food, water, feed bowls, pooper scooper etc etc) It is light enough that my OH and I can get it on and off very easily. It is bolted to the tray. The cage is then covered with canvas. The panels on the sides can zip up and roll up, our they can stay down. We also have vents at the front which are always open. The canvas does stay really quite cool. I live in a very hot area, and 90% of the time we travel with the back rolled up and the front vents open. This allows the breeze to flow through and it keeps them cool with constant fresh air. We also have those half pot plant holder things fron bunnings (half circle things, flat one one side!) tied in each cage so that they always have water. We really like or set up and so far it works well. I could take some photos later if you would like. I am not sure if i have explaned myself very well!!! Our cage cost us $500 (but was done by a friend) and the canvas was $650.