Brad Griggs

I would suggest taking the time to research the topic, sitting down and writing out a plan to address the issue, and implementing it before the breaking of the drop becomes a learnt behaviour. If you are not using a release command for you skills then I can tell you that this can happen very quiclkly, and if it becomes classically conditioned it becomes a seriously hard to break pattern.

My previous post on this subject was edited for an as yet to be understood reason by the administration. If you are looking for a collar that ticks all the boxes, is relsilient and also high in features, waterproof, easier to use and adjust on the fly, then call the person that is supposedly the sole victorian distributor of these products. Forell Dog Products 0418348804 THIS IS NOT MY BUSINESS AND I DO NOT PROFIT FROM YOU CONTACTING THIS BUSINESS. DO NOT MENTION MY NAME REGARDING YOUR ENQUIRY AND I WOULD ENCOURAGE YOU TO CALL THIS NUMBER IN ORDER TO GET SOME FREE EXPERT ADVICE WHETHER OR NOT YOU CHOOSE TO BUY FROM THEM OR NOT!!! INFORMATION IS NOT USUALLY REALLY FREE, HOWEVER THESE PPL WILL TAKE THE TIME TO TALK TO YOU. ASK FOR TONIA.

KUDOS ALPHA.....YET ANOTHER GREAT POST...LOVED IT. This thread is awesome to read guys! Brad

GREAT POST BY UNDERDOG...SUMS THE WHOLE THING UP BEAUTIFULY REALLY...NICE WORK.

WOW! THIS POST IS FANTASTIC! INOFFENSIVE, FACTUAL, INFORMATIVE...The type of post I would have been proud writing myself!!! I only differ in opinion on a couple of points here: 1- As I have eluded to in my controversial first post (hic!) both of these aims are achievable, however the amount of trainers out there that have the understanding of psychology, drive development, behavioural management, communication skills and of sufficient experience to be able to achieve the 'total' outcome you discuss in this post are few and far between. They are out there however. I could cite numeorus reasons for this, and the types of background experience that more often produces this type of trainer, however I had best leave that to another post. 2- In order to achieve to a very high level in any type of competitive dogsport it is imperative to start with a dog that has the necessary genetic predispositions to perform the functions required of him. A tradesman is only as good as his tools after all (although some can do more with a hammer and a handsaw than others can do with power tools! ha ha ha). 3-"If you really want to train a high scoring dog, you need to use methods that the top triallers use, and you will rarely see them on display at a club, because the top triallers never expect their dogs to ever learn anything new in that enviroment."----I would go one step further and say that you should seek to attain the KNOWLEDGE that top triallers have, and then seek to form an UNDERSTANDING of how that knowledge applies. This way you will not only understand any problems you encounter, or how one aspect of performance affects other positively or negatively, and be able to apply it to a broad range of dogs with very different temperaments. 4- SIDE NOTE...Get involved and hands on with the dogs of friends and family, and even take on helping somebody out who is having problems with their dog at your club or dog park. There is no substitute for hands on experience, not even institutional learning. Even if they are training a dog in a different sport, or with a different end goal, the knowledge you gain will be invaluable and you will forever be thankful for the hard earnt knowledge and understanding you will gain. ONCE AGAIN TIGGY, AN EXCELLENT POST, I LOVED IT.

Great post Kavic! I envy your ability to be so succinct;) I would like to add though that whilst learning about clicker training you should also do some research about the use of positive and negative punishment before you begin. This will give you a more thorough understanding of the basics of operant conditioning (learning) and will add balance to your training. Invariably puppies require some form of punishment at some stage, so it is best to learn how to guage what is appropriate and under what circumstances, etc. If you are seeking a well produced, balanced, scientifically sound, highly educational dvd to help in your learning then you should seriously consider looking into the Canine Training Systems range, in particular the Ivan Balabanov series. The Australian distributor for this range is Forell Dog Products, and they can be reached via [email protected], or call Tonia direct on 0422636489. Hope this is helpful.

']Hey there guys. I agree alpha, it is entirely possible, and it is actually totally possible to achieve results very very quickly. I do, however, lean towards a different methodology. Pulling has its roots in instinctive behaviour, and indicates a lack of clear understanding on behalf of the dog regarding the concept of the walk. The concept as we wish the dog to understand it is "The boss is going on a walk and I'm allowed to come along, so long as I dont impede the boss' movement and dont allow the leash to get tight". MOST OFTEN it is the case in a pulling dog that there is also a lack of clarity regarding hierachy also, and this is generally expressed in other areas of the relationship. I will assume that you are not training on a check chain. There are 2 distinct areas of responsibility here: YOURS- To guarantee that you are thoroughly consistent in your application of behavioural boundaries, appropriate reward and also consequence. Your job is to praise calmly when the dog is by your left side, even if accidentally so initially, and to apply positive correction via multiple tiny pops or fast vibration BEFORE the leash goes tight. DOG- To maintain sufficient vigilance of his masters location and position in order that he can be totally sure that he does not allow the leash to be tight. If the pops or vibrations you are using do not encourage the dog to cease being within about 8 inches of the end of the leash in a timely fashion, then the intensity of the stimulation should be increased until the desired effect is achieved. This is not about delivering pain but it is about delivering the minimum level of MOMENTARY DISCOMFORT at the exact time the dog is transgressing in order to make the behaviour unenjoyable and less likely to occur again in frequency and/or intensity. You may well find that initially the level of correction you need to use is greater than expected due to the fact that you have allowed the dog to become desensitised to the sensation of a tight collar - at the moment he probably just sees collar pressure as a normal part of a fun walk. If your dog is almost at the end of his leash, as you deliver the pops or vibration (whichever provides a better result for you) you should immediately turn a full 180 degrees to your right and accelerate quickly out of the turn, back the way you came. You must turn the full 180 from the direction the dog is ATTEMPTING to pull in in order to totally remove any reward for the pulling behaviour. As you turn the leash should be in your right hand, and you can encourage the dog ro follow through the turn by tapping your left hand on your left leg if desired but only after the pops. A possible contingency of actually allowing the dog to lean into the collar as previously suggested is that, for a dog that is a chronic puller, it is likely to produce an opposition reflex in the dog which will trigger the dog to pull harder, thus being counterproductive. That method can work, however it requires great consistency from the handler to work, and does little to make the behaviour less likely to happen again in all but the softest temperaments, especially under stress or distraction. When the dog is no longer pulling after you have corrected him and completed the 180 degree including acceleration he will invariably either be at, or have to pass by, your left hand side. At the point his shoulder is roughly at your shinbone give him CALM PRAISE AND A CALM PAT ALONG WITH A KIND EXPRESSION. If he maintains the position for another step or 2 praise again in the same way. Do not praise unless or until he is in the desired approximate position. Over time you can make him do more steps before he earns more praise. During your day to day interactions it is also advisable to do the majority of treating or praising on your left side at least 70% of the time, and to attempt to use your left hand for the praise you deliver. This method creates a clear picture for the dog that there is great joy in being at the left hand side, and that pulling on the leash is not only going to produce an undesirable outcome, but will actually produce the total opposite outcome to the instinctive goals that drive him to pull. As for sniffing, because the dog does not have to strictly stay on your left hand side (merely strongly favours what that position offers him) he is free to sniff, so long as you choose to stop and let him. THIS IS BECAUSE THE LEASH IS NOT TIGHT, AND HE IS NOT FAILING IN HIS RESPONSIBILITIES. You can also very easily pair a command (formal or informal) to his sniffing if you like. If you choose to walk off whilst he is sniffing though he must follow you before the leash gets tight....necessary for true consistency in the dogs mind. This method tends to produce a dog that is far more attentive to you, dividing his attention between you and the wider world, in order to attain that which he wants, and also to avoid that which he finds unenjoyable (and less rewarding). In a short period of time, if you are thoroughly consistent in praise and punishment being correctly applied and timed, you will notice that the occassions when you do need to deliver the pops or vibration to the dog for almost making the leash go tight occur far less often and that the amount and/or intensity of the punishment is significantly less. All of this can be achieved with an absolute minimum of stress to you and your k9 buddy, and will serve to create an even happier attitude in the dog than ever. I could have written a lot more in a lot deeper detail, but I feel that what is here should get you through. Remember - learning occurs when outcome and expectation differ! Hope it helps in some way. Brad

If the dog is young, as he appears to bein the photo on your profile, then it is very possible that what you are seeing is normal behaviour; part of a young dog feeling out his place in the social order of the pack and probing the boundaries. The behaviour in question must be vieed in context of the overall social interaction you are witnessing, and also in context of the overall relationship between the two dogs (and also yourself!). There may be an element of co-dominace involved, as there often is between 2 dogs that are prt of the same household. If you have any real concern I suggest you have an experienced professional or a friend who has a learned opinion you trust have a look at the situation and give you some guidance. If you are not dealing with the problem in a manner consistent with getting the outcome you desire then you are very possibly making the issue worse by inadvertantly sending the wrong message. If you are using books to gain further understanding that is a fantastic and positive step, however I would suggest reading at least 2 separte books in order to have a little more background knowwledge. Best of luck with it all, and if I can be of any further help let me know. Brad

Allow me quantify my statement and say that it referred to the QUALITY of the training Grey. Sorry for your financial loss, just as I am sorry for my friends that lost jobs that they loved and were passionate about. I hope thatyou find a bargain priced top quality solution to your current predicament. Consider contacting the NDTF and trying to search for your favourite instructors. Failing success with that avenue you may wish to consider my post about what to look for 2nd time around. Best of luck and let me know if I can be of any help as I may know of somebody in your area that fits the bill (no pun intended).

Thanks very much for the bouying post Staranais;) As I often hear, the road to disaster is paved with good intentions! Take Care, Brad

If you think I may be of any help to you out to get started drop me a line and we can chat about where you think I may be of use. Im not really looking to work for a club again, but if our outlooks are similar I would be happy to help you get things off the ground, at least in part.

To what level or expertise did you train 1000's of dogs? Training for the dogs and their handlers has taken the form of classes, private lessons, boarding and training, behavioural modification, sales of dogs, personal dog ownership, working for and with breeders and also consulting to private companies. Thus the level of training is dictated by the individual dog and the handlers needs and wants. This has varied from leash walking courses to advanced level very highly proofed off leash obedience, complex skills and hand signals. Whilst I choose not to compete in VCA trials for personal reasons, I have been involved in the training of sporting dogs. I have also worked with scent detection dogs and handlers in a problem solving and training capacity. Im not bragging, Im not the best trainer in the world by any means, but I am proud of the runs that I have on the board. Hope that answer covers it to your satisfaction lablover:) Have a brilliant week. Brad

I think that the question is very interesting. In my humble opinion I think that for a person to really 'get it' they need to have the knowledge to identify what they see and what they do. The easiest way for them to do this is to have a framework of reference, and a formal education such as an NDTF course offers this. The next step is turning that knowledge into understanding, which no course can really do for you. It is hard earnt, no way around it.

By the way, be sure to refrain anything that the dog may view as REINFORCEMENT, including a smile, kind look or nice voice when the dog makes the mistake. Also consider using markers for the behaviour so that the dog can make the connection to the undesirable behaviour in a contiguous fashion, and therefore has a chance to find a way around the lack of success.

I honestly think that answer from Jules was great, as were a couple of others. Here are some other tips off the top of my head...apologies if anybody else has covered this ground, or if the post is considered too long. I will go out on a limb and put $10 on the fact that the dog was probably trained to drop from a seated position, and that dropping from a sit is a common part of your training routine. A major contingency of training the drop in this fashion is the exact problem that you are now encountering. If you still seek a solution for this problem I would recommend the following modifications to your current training regime: 1- NO MORE DROPS FROM A SIT. At least for about a month or so. About a week or so from the trial introduce them again, but in a totally random fashion that does not allow the dog to ascertain a pattern in any way. 2- PROOF THE DROP AND THE SIT SEPARATELY, followed by a release upon success. Dont rush it, dont try and take big leaps, reward the inch by inch progresses. 3- IMPLY THE STAY COMMAND WITH THE SIT AND DROP COMMANDS. The dog will not forget what the stay command means, and the performance will be stronger in the sit and drop positions. 4- When you do go back to using the stay command in training be sure to proof the stay command in other positions. Remind yourself that the CONCEPT you are trying to teach your dog is that stay means 'maintain your current position and location, to the exlusion of any other behaviours, until such time as I give you a different command, or I tell you that your stay is finished'. 5- Try using a triangular box or frame under the dogs front legs for about 100-200 repetitions to block the dropping behaviour from happening. 6- When training the sit or the drop, if you are using food, be sure to return to the dog to treat. 7- If you are comfortable using compulsion the proofing phase that you are in with your dog now would be an appropriate time to apply positive punishment. 8- Check if the problem behaviour is environmentally specific by testing the dog. Do this by using the same routine in a very different environment but without too much distraction. There are a million of possibilities, but 99% of the time the first 3 or 4 ideas I have shared fixes the issue. Hope this helps you out! Brad

As I have mentioned in other posts regarding dvd's on training, the Canine Training Systems productions are by far the best produced and most science based media I have seen to date. Many of the presenters and titles have won acclaim and awards, and they are absolute standouts in the opinion of many many professional trainers. The Aussie distributors are Forell Dog Products, and they can be reached on 0422 636 489. Hope this helps.

Cheers Kavik:) I agree that these forums are about discussion, but if my post gets a couple of people talking about what they consider important, even if they disagree with what I wrote, then I would consider that to be stimulating discussion. Some people place far more importance on the social aspect and the enjoyment they take from working with their dogs, and this is not wrong or right, it's just their take on things. The points I made in my debut post were, as stated, for the people that were left with doubt about where they head next. I'm really happy for anyone that finds it of use, and just assumed that those that found it of little or no value to their situation would simply scroll past it and not give it a second thought. Thanks for the input Kavik, I appreciate the tips and will certainly take them on board and use them in future. Brad

Nicely put Wayrod. I personally am upset for the Melbourne dog training and owning world that ADT has closed, for both personal and professional reasons, and also for the clients and the staff affected. I have quite a few buddies that worked for ADT, some that have really helped me in many ways throughout the years. I agree that the NDTF is a great organisation, and my email clearly shows my respect for them. Whilst I cannot comment on the other posts you mentioned as I have not come across any yet, I have not yet attempted to promote myself in such a way, and have only sought to provide some knowledge and insight to people who now have to start again at other clubs and find somewhere that they feel comfortable training. I use my real name, I have tried rigourously to communicate in a clear fashion that gets across the exact point that I have made, and have not attempted to do anything other than to be of service to those affected by my objective and free advice. Hope that was a response you find complete and to satisfaction Wayrod, and thanks for bringing these concerns to my attention. Have a great night mate. Brad

Pretty fair question Jules, so I shall endeavour to answer it fully. I LOOOOVVVEEEEEEE the idea of a bunch of likeminded people with open minds and a passion for dogs being open to learning from eachother, challenge each other to refine their ideas and evolve their thinking, working towards the common goal of becoming more informed, having better understanding, and supporting each other throughout that process. Already it has been posted that I have 'ruffled many feathers', and although I have made apologies via posting and a PM or two, I'm not yet sure if I am up to dealing with the politics of it all. Also, I think that I clearly have a utopian view of what the k9 community could (should?) be like, and I'm not too sure if others care to have those types of dialogs at all, let alone with me. I'm enjoying checking out some of the wonderful posts on here and getting a feel for the place, and after my disasterous debut this morning I may test the waters, make a few posts, and see how my opinions and input are recieved. I guess in short Jules my answer is I would very much like to hang around on here, however I don't enjoy conflict and if I put noses out of joint by sharing an honest opinion or offering advice that upsets other people then I would prefer not to be the cause of any unease or tension. Hope that answer works for you Jules! Have a great night, Brad

FOR THOSE THAT ARE AFFECTED BY THE ADT CLOSURE If you are a dog owner that has been left with questions about where to head with your dog training now that ADT has closed its doors, I have endeavoured to list some basic points for your consideration in another chat thread listed below: http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...73438&st=15 It is my hope that it gives a little practical and impartial guidance to people that are searching for a new trainer or obedience club. If you are trying to make an informed decision then I would recommend giving it look. Hope that it helps a few of you out! Warm regards to all, Brad

Cheers Kavic, I really appreciate the input! I did see the introductions forum, but as mentioned I only wished to post on the ADT related topic to offer help, not to advertise or make myself known. Had I had the goal to promote myself then that would definitely have been my course of action. I too think a small link in the sig would be okay, although can't see how that is different to a single typed link. The phone number thing I now get, as mentioned in the apology. Posting the same post in 2 closely related threads where it has relevance and may help someone...it may be an ettiquite thing but I dont see that as wrong. I will be careful not to do the same thing again if possible. Cheers again for the input, have a great week! Brad

Okay guys it appears for the most part I have gotten off on the wrong foot. For this I am sincerely sorry, especially as I went to great lengths to make clear that I did not wish to ruffle any feathers. To address the statement that I have made the same post 'in a few forums' let me say this is incorrect. I made the same post in the 2 ADT related forums that I could find, to the best of my recollection. Considering the fact that it was relevant to both threads I dont consider that to be unreasonable, although I may have broken some type of forum ettiquite unintentionally. If this is the case once again I apologise sincerely, but as stated it is my first post and I am a new member, so I would hope for some level of understanding on the matter. Whilst I await clarification from Troy regarding exactly what I did wrong, I am guessing after reading my edited post that it was the addition of my phone number and email address to the post. Many people have banners that they sign off with that show an email address, and so I figured that this would be a non issue. As for the phone number I offered it so that people could contact me for ADVICE, and I did this because clearly there are people that are very lost and feeling like they do not know how to make smart choices regarding the training of their dog. Again, if this is not allowed and I broke the rules I APOLOGISE UNRESERVEDLY. I should have taken more time to read the posting rules before I posted, and will not make the same mistake again. I almost did not join up and post because I have heard a million horror stories about bad politics affecting people on this and other similar sites, and I understand that the written word is very easily misconstrued as there is no ability for people to read your body language or read your intentions. I would certainly appreciate hearing from anybody at any time in the future should I in some way break ettiquite or the rules, and that way I can take immediate steps to make ammends. It would appear that I have not had a very successful debut on DOL!!! Having said all this, I felt good about taking the time to give people some advice that I myself would want to be given. I would hope that more experienced posters and users of these forums would accept my sincere apology and not bear any grudge towards me for the mistake/s I have made, and rather would look to see the good side of what I did. What did I do??? I listed objective facts devoid of personal opinion, simply to try and help some people who seemed to need some help. I put my full name as my user name in an attempt to show people that my posting was genuine in its aim to help, and I think that goes to show a lot. So in closing, if I have offended any of the DOL please accept an unreserved total apology, and my undertaking that I shall endeavour not to make the same mistake twice. If you found value in what I wrote, and in some way it has allowed you to make an informed decision about chosing a dog trainer or training club, then thanks for taking the time to read my post and I am really happy that you got what I was attempting to say. Warm Regards to all users, Brad Griggs

Hey there all. When considering which tug to choose for training many factors come into play. For puppies especially the material you choose must be appetitive to the dogs tactile sense, and must offer grip satisfaction. In more simple terms, put your mouth on the toy and see how it feels! It should be soft, easy for smaller puppy teeth to get into, not too large for the dogs mouth but large enough that the pup is not tempted to chew on the tug. Usually for a pup a puppy chamois or well washed hessian bag is a starting point, and once the drive and full mouth grip are set a tug is the next step. Correct presentation and reinforcement of first grip at this stage is paramount. The gradual building of the drive and grip very often needs to be started with the bag or cham especially in any breed that does not have a prepotent genetic background that favours full mouth grips and carrys. Sorry for the quick post, hope it was a little helpful, but must get out the door as I have a client waiting. Warm Regards, Brad

Hey there, I personally refuse to buy any Leerburg material for ethical reasons. I attended a Bernhard Flinks seminar some years back, and Flinks, who features in about 4-5 dvd's in Ed Frawley's range, claimed that at no time has he ever recieved any money for his appearances. He also made clear that what you see is Frawleys interpretation of Flink's methodolgy, and that he considers the videos to be poor interpretations at that. Add to this the fact that Frawley uses his forums to slander and vilify people that do not let him have his own way, and this makes him nothing more than a bully and a loudmouth. There is actually a website dedicated specifically to how borderline clinically nuts the guy is, and debunks some of his spurious claims towards others and regarding certain events. It is worth a look to put things in perspective. Do a little research and what you will find will surely be eye opening, and this cannot help but make you aware of his massively lacking integrity and credibility...something that would discourage me from supporting him by buying his products. Warm Regards, Brad

Hello to all members My name is Brad Griggs, and I operate K9 Services International. I am a PROFESSIONAL dog trainer and canine behaviourist with close to a decade of experience, qualified by the National Dog Trainers Federation. I actually joined DOL specifically to post on this thread, as I think that it is a very interesting discussion and feel that I am in a position to help those affected by ADT's recent closure. If I ruffle feathers or offend I sincerely apologise, as my intentions with this post are good. So here goes: Firstly, ADT was founded 24 years ago by Boyd Hooper. Since inception it has stood for highly proofed, reliable obedience taught in a way that offers the least amount of potential problems for handlers. Its philosophy is science based, and it offered far more than any club ever has in terms of value for money and commitment to excellence. I have spoke to Boyd personally and he is greatly saddened by the closure and the effect it has had on people, however it was a business decision - PURE AND SIMPLE. SO, a lot of people on here seem to be lost regarding where to turn for training from this point forward, which is certainly understandable. Here are a few points that you should consider when making a decision on who to trust to train you to train your dog. Firstly, the trainer you choose should be QUALIFIED!!! The NDTF qualification and education system represents the most complete and scientifically respected trainer qualification available in Australia. RSPCA, Customs, Police and Military acknowledge this fact, and this is evidenced by the fact that some of their personnel are graduates of NDTF courses. So basically if you are seeking an informed person to give you up to date, scientifically based training advice an NDTF qualified trainer is the place to START...certainly there are some wonderful, knowledgable, praiseworthy trainers around with great understanding of their craft that have not completed an NDTF course, however they are in the minority. EXPERIENCE COUNTS...a PROFESSIONAL trainer, in the simplest terms to explain, basically means that your trainer makes their living by training dogs. For sake of example I personally have literally trained 1000's of dogs, and it is my job, my hobby, my passion. Most of my friends are professional trainers, and we are passionate about what we do. Whilst the NDTF course is a great start it is widely understood in the dog training community that NDTF graduates are equipped with the skills to START their learning. An open minded HIGHLY EXPERIENCED trainer is able to access and apply a great many tools to facilitate the best possible outcome when training both you and your dog. Whilst an individual trainer or club may have a preference towards certain training methodologies, they choose their methodology based on their belief that it offers the greater amount of benefit to the widest range of dogs, with the least amount of contingencies (disadvantage or potential problems). YES, there are some fantastic and passionate amateur trainers out there too, however they tend to be fewer in numbers. CONSIDER YOUR AIMS...if you wish to compete in VCA obedience trials or any other specialised area, then the obedience style that you choose should lead you towards that end goal. For most people and most dogs a LIFESTYLE ORIENTED TRAINING STYLE makes the most sense, and provides the style of obedience that best lends itself towards creating an easily livable, highly enjoyable K9 companion. There is little point training in a curriculum that is based on what is required to pass obedience titles if you have zero desire to ever compete with your dog, just as the converse is true. Both of these goals are not mutually exclusive, though the amount of trainers out there that have the understanding and experience necessary to provide you and your dog with the knowledge, methodology and approach required to bring the two goals together in the end is considerably small. AN OPEN MIND...if the club or trainer that you are considering dealing with only accepts dogs of a certain age, denies training to aggressive or problem dogs, 'fails' handlers or dogs (failing in competition excluded), does not allow the use of certain training equipment OR only allows one type of training equipment (check chain, halti, etc), then there is a reasonably high chance that the trainer or club in question is not open minded, and often these clubs produce dogs and handlers that are unsatisfied with their results. THIS IS A GENERALISATION AND NOT A DEFINITIVE STATEMENT, however the fact remains that there are more clubs and trainers out there that fall short of the mark that fit these model than there that contradict it. ADT was a fantastic example of a club that allowed the use of check chains, halti's, flat collars, slip collars, etc, and a club that took on even the most problematic dogs; this was because they understood that dogs and people all have different preferences, all dogs deserve access to being well trained, and the club had the knowledge base and open outlook to accomodate these problems and differences of opinion. TO FEED OR NOT TO FEED...Food can be a truly wonderful training tool for dogs, but the club or trainer that you are dealing with should clearly display the ability to teach handlers how to avoid food becoming necessary for correct performance. A well trained dog and handler should not have to rely on the use of food for established obedience skills, and incorrect use of food can actually become problematic in the training of the dog and handler. PUNISHMENT...without commenting on styles of punishment or their appropriateness, it is understood by the world's foremost science based dog trainers, including behavioural neuroscientist Dr. Stuart Hilliard, that some form of punishment is necessary to produce the best training outcomes for handlers and their dogs. Whether punishing by withholding food, or by a verbal reprimand, leash correction, etc, some punishment must be used in the later stages of training and proofing. Any trainer or club that claims that dogs do not learn through punishment does not understand basic training psychology as accepted by the scientific world and/or bases their opinion on long ago debunked research. Often times clubs or trainers that hold this belief produce extremely limited outcomes, and generally only allow certain dogs to train. These clubs DO produce some really great success stories with certain types of dogs, but routinely accept only dogs that lend themselves well to their training methodology. Generally speaking these clubs are not suitable for dogs with dominant personalities and aggression problems. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR....this pretty much speaks for itself. LAST BUT NOT LEAST.....It is EXTREMELY important that you feel comfortable at the club or with the trainer that you deal with. If you are happy it gives your dog the best chance of having a happy training experience. Training is bound to be difficult or less enjoyable at times, especially when working through problems or difficulties, but it should be an enjoyable experience overall. So there you go guys, I really do hope that this helps put things in perspective for you all. A short post on a complicated subject true, but I think it covers the basics (more or less). Again I would like to state that in no way am I trying to ruffle feathers, instead I am trying to provide access to objective information from a highly experienced professional viewpoint. Basically, its all stuff that I think most people would want to know, indeed need to know. I have not included my personal opinions, rather have tried to provide information to any interested readers that allows them to make their own INFORMED decisions, whatever that decision may be. BE GOOD TO YOUR DOGS GUYS, THEY DESERVE IT Best of luck in all your doggy endeavours! Brad Griggs