Brad Griggs

I would suggest taking the time to research the topic, sitting down and writing out a plan to address the issue, and implementing it before the breaking of the drop becomes a learnt behaviour. If you are not using a release command for you skills then I can tell you that this can happen very quiclkly, and if it becomes classically conditioned it becomes a seriously hard to break pattern.

My previous post on this subject was edited for an as yet to be understood reason by the administration. If you are looking for a collar that ticks all the boxes, is relsilient and also high in features, waterproof, easier to use and adjust on the fly, then call the person that is supposedly the sole victorian distributor of these products. Forell Dog Products 0418348804 THIS IS NOT MY BUSINESS AND I DO NOT PROFIT FROM YOU CONTACTING THIS BUSINESS. DO NOT MENTION MY NAME REGARDING YOUR ENQUIRY AND I WOULD ENCOURAGE YOU TO CALL THIS NUMBER IN ORDER TO GET SOME FREE EXPERT ADVICE WHETHER OR NOT YOU CHOOSE TO BUY FROM THEM OR NOT!!! INFORMATION IS NOT USUALLY REALLY FREE, HOWEVER THESE PPL WILL TAKE THE TIME TO TALK TO YOU. ASK FOR TONIA.

KUDOS ALPHA.....YET ANOTHER GREAT POST...LOVED IT. This thread is awesome to read guys! Brad

GREAT POST BY UNDERDOG...SUMS THE WHOLE THING UP BEAUTIFULY REALLY...NICE WORK.

WOW! THIS POST IS FANTASTIC! INOFFENSIVE, FACTUAL, INFORMATIVE...The type of post I would have been proud writing myself!!! I only differ in opinion on a couple of points here: 1- As I have eluded to in my controversial first post (hic!) both of these aims are achievable, however the amount of trainers out there that have the understanding of psychology, drive development, behavioural management, communication skills and of sufficient experience to be able to achieve the 'total' outcome you discuss in this post are few and far between. They are out there however. I could cite numeorus reasons for this, and the types of background experience that more often produces this type of trainer, however I had best leave that to another post. 2- In order to achieve to a very high level in any type of competitive dogsport it is imperative to start with a dog that has the necessary genetic predispositions to perform the functions required of him. A tradesman is only as good as his tools after all (although some can do more with a hammer and a handsaw than others can do with power tools! ha ha ha). 3-"If you really want to train a high scoring dog, you need to use methods that the top triallers use, and you will rarely see them on display at a club, because the top triallers never expect their dogs to ever learn anything new in that enviroment."----I would go one step further and say that you should seek to attain the KNOWLEDGE that top triallers have, and then seek to form an UNDERSTANDING of how that knowledge applies. This way you will not only understand any problems you encounter, or how one aspect of performance affects other positively or negatively, and be able to apply it to a broad range of dogs with very different temperaments. 4- SIDE NOTE...Get involved and hands on with the dogs of friends and family, and even take on helping somebody out who is having problems with their dog at your club or dog park. There is no substitute for hands on experience, not even institutional learning. Even if they are training a dog in a different sport, or with a different end goal, the knowledge you gain will be invaluable and you will forever be thankful for the hard earnt knowledge and understanding you will gain. ONCE AGAIN TIGGY, AN EXCELLENT POST, I LOVED IT.

Great post Kavic! I envy your ability to be so succinct;) I would like to add though that whilst learning about clicker training you should also do some research about the use of positive and negative punishment before you begin. This will give you a more thorough understanding of the basics of operant conditioning (learning) and will add balance to your training. Invariably puppies require some form of punishment at some stage, so it is best to learn how to guage what is appropriate and under what circumstances, etc. If you are seeking a well produced, balanced, scientifically sound, highly educational dvd to help in your learning then you should seriously consider looking into the Canine Training Systems range, in particular the Ivan Balabanov series. The Australian distributor for this range is Forell Dog Products, and they can be reached via [email protected], or call Tonia direct on 0422636489. Hope this is helpful.

']Hey there guys. I agree alpha, it is entirely possible, and it is actually totally possible to achieve results very very quickly. I do, however, lean towards a different methodology. Pulling has its roots in instinctive behaviour, and indicates a lack of clear understanding on behalf of the dog regarding the concept of the walk. The concept as we wish the dog to understand it is "The boss is going on a walk and I'm allowed to come along, so long as I dont impede the boss' movement and dont allow the leash to get tight". MOST OFTEN it is the case in a pulling dog that there is also a lack of clarity regarding hierachy also, and this is generally expressed in other areas of the relationship. I will assume that you are not training on a check chain. There are 2 distinct areas of responsibility here: YOURS- To guarantee that you are thoroughly consistent in your application of behavioural boundaries, appropriate reward and also consequence. Your job is to praise calmly when the dog is by your left side, even if accidentally so initially, and to apply positive correction via multiple tiny pops or fast vibration BEFORE the leash goes tight. DOG- To maintain sufficient vigilance of his masters location and position in order that he can be totally sure that he does not allow the leash to be tight. If the pops or vibrations you are using do not encourage the dog to cease being within about 8 inches of the end of the leash in a timely fashion, then the intensity of the stimulation should be increased until the desired effect is achieved. This is not about delivering pain but it is about delivering the minimum level of MOMENTARY DISCOMFORT at the exact time the dog is transgressing in order to make the behaviour unenjoyable and less likely to occur again in frequency and/or intensity. You may well find that initially the level of correction you need to use is greater than expected due to the fact that you have allowed the dog to become desensitised to the sensation of a tight collar - at the moment he probably just sees collar pressure as a normal part of a fun walk. If your dog is almost at the end of his leash, as you deliver the pops or vibration (whichever provides a better result for you) you should immediately turn a full 180 degrees to your right and accelerate quickly out of the turn, back the way you came. You must turn the full 180 from the direction the dog is ATTEMPTING to pull in in order to totally remove any reward for the pulling behaviour. As you turn the leash should be in your right hand, and you can encourage the dog ro follow through the turn by tapping your left hand on your left leg if desired but only after the pops. A possible contingency of actually allowing the dog to lean into the collar as previously suggested is that, for a dog that is a chronic puller, it is likely to produce an opposition reflex in the dog which will trigger the dog to pull harder, thus being counterproductive. That method can work, however it requires great consistency from the handler to work, and does little to make the behaviour less likely to happen again in all but the softest temperaments, especially under stress or distraction. When the dog is no longer pulling after you have corrected him and completed the 180 degree including acceleration he will invariably either be at, or have to pass by, your left hand side. At the point his shoulder is roughly at your shinbone give him CALM PRAISE AND A CALM PAT ALONG WITH A KIND EXPRESSION. If he maintains the position for another step or 2 praise again in the same way. Do not praise unless or until he is in the desired approximate position. Over time you can make him do more steps before he earns more praise. During your day to day interactions it is also advisable to do the majority of treating or praising on your left side at least 70% of the time, and to attempt to use your left hand for the praise you deliver. This method creates a clear picture for the dog that there is great joy in being at the left hand side, and that pulling on the leash is not only going to produce an undesirable outcome, but will actually produce the total opposite outcome to the instinctive goals that drive him to pull. As for sniffing, because the dog does not have to strictly stay on your left hand side (merely strongly favours what that position offers him) he is free to sniff, so long as you choose to stop and let him. THIS IS BECAUSE THE LEASH IS NOT TIGHT, AND HE IS NOT FAILING IN HIS RESPONSIBILITIES. You can also very easily pair a command (formal or informal) to his sniffing if you like. If you choose to walk off whilst he is sniffing though he must follow you before the leash gets tight....necessary for true consistency in the dogs mind. This method tends to produce a dog that is far more attentive to you, dividing his attention between you and the wider world, in order to attain that which he wants, and also to avoid that which he finds unenjoyable (and less rewarding). In a short period of time, if you are thoroughly consistent in praise and punishment being correctly applied and timed, you will notice that the occassions when you do need to deliver the pops or vibration to the dog for almost making the leash go tight occur far less often and that the amount and/or intensity of the punishment is significantly less. All of this can be achieved with an absolute minimum of stress to you and your k9 buddy, and will serve to create an even happier attitude in the dog than ever. I could have written a lot more in a lot deeper detail, but I feel that what is here should get you through. Remember - learning occurs when outcome and expectation differ! Hope it helps in some way. Brad

If the dog is young, as he appears to bein the photo on your profile, then it is very possible that what you are seeing is normal behaviour; part of a young dog feeling out his place in the social order of the pack and probing the boundaries. The behaviour in question must be vieed in context of the overall social interaction you are witnessing, and also in context of the overall relationship between the two dogs (and also yourself!). There may be an element of co-dominace involved, as there often is between 2 dogs that are prt of the same household. If you have any real concern I suggest you have an experienced professional or a friend who has a learned opinion you trust have a look at the situation and give you some guidance. If you are not dealing with the problem in a manner consistent with getting the outcome you desire then you are very possibly making the issue worse by inadvertantly sending the wrong message. If you are using books to gain further understanding that is a fantastic and positive step, however I would suggest reading at least 2 separte books in order to have a little more background knowwledge. Best of luck with it all, and if I can be of any further help let me know. Brad

Allow me quantify my statement and say that it referred to the QUALITY of the training Grey. Sorry for your financial loss, just as I am sorry for my friends that lost jobs that they loved and were passionate about. I hope thatyou find a bargain priced top quality solution to your current predicament. Consider contacting the NDTF and trying to search for your favourite instructors. Failing success with that avenue you may wish to consider my post about what to look for 2nd time around. Best of luck and let me know if I can be of any help as I may know of somebody in your area that fits the bill (no pun intended).

Thanks very much for the bouying post Staranais;) As I often hear, the road to disaster is paved with good intentions! Take Care, Brad

If you think I may be of any help to you out to get started drop me a line and we can chat about where you think I may be of use. Im not really looking to work for a club again, but if our outlooks are similar I would be happy to help you get things off the ground, at least in part.

To what level or expertise did you train 1000's of dogs? Training for the dogs and their handlers has taken the form of classes, private lessons, boarding and training, behavioural modification, sales of dogs, personal dog ownership, working for and with breeders and also consulting to private companies. Thus the level of training is dictated by the individual dog and the handlers needs and wants. This has varied from leash walking courses to advanced level very highly proofed off leash obedience, complex skills and hand signals. Whilst I choose not to compete in VCA trials for personal reasons, I have been involved in the training of sporting dogs. I have also worked with scent detection dogs and handlers in a problem solving and training capacity. Im not bragging, Im not the best trainer in the world by any means, but I am proud of the runs that I have on the board. Hope that answer covers it to your satisfaction lablover:) Have a brilliant week. Brad

I think that the question is very interesting. In my humble opinion I think that for a person to really 'get it' they need to have the knowledge to identify what they see and what they do. The easiest way for them to do this is to have a framework of reference, and a formal education such as an NDTF course offers this. The next step is turning that knowledge into understanding, which no course can really do for you. It is hard earnt, no way around it.

By the way, be sure to refrain anything that the dog may view as REINFORCEMENT, including a smile, kind look or nice voice when the dog makes the mistake. Also consider using markers for the behaviour so that the dog can make the connection to the undesirable behaviour in a contiguous fashion, and therefore has a chance to find a way around the lack of success.

I honestly think that answer from Jules was great, as were a couple of others. Here are some other tips off the top of my head...apologies if anybody else has covered this ground, or if the post is considered too long. I will go out on a limb and put $10 on the fact that the dog was probably trained to drop from a seated position, and that dropping from a sit is a common part of your training routine. A major contingency of training the drop in this fashion is the exact problem that you are now encountering. If you still seek a solution for this problem I would recommend the following modifications to your current training regime: 1- NO MORE DROPS FROM A SIT. At least for about a month or so. About a week or so from the trial introduce them again, but in a totally random fashion that does not allow the dog to ascertain a pattern in any way. 2- PROOF THE DROP AND THE SIT SEPARATELY, followed by a release upon success. Dont rush it, dont try and take big leaps, reward the inch by inch progresses. 3- IMPLY THE STAY COMMAND WITH THE SIT AND DROP COMMANDS. The dog will not forget what the stay command means, and the performance will be stronger in the sit and drop positions. 4- When you do go back to using the stay command in training be sure to proof the stay command in other positions. Remind yourself that the CONCEPT you are trying to teach your dog is that stay means 'maintain your current position and location, to the exlusion of any other behaviours, until such time as I give you a different command, or I tell you that your stay is finished'. 5- Try using a triangular box or frame under the dogs front legs for about 100-200 repetitions to block the dropping behaviour from happening. 6- When training the sit or the drop, if you are using food, be sure to return to the dog to treat. 7- If you are comfortable using compulsion the proofing phase that you are in with your dog now would be an appropriate time to apply positive punishment. 8- Check if the problem behaviour is environmentally specific by testing the dog. Do this by using the same routine in a very different environment but without too much distraction. There are a million of possibilities, but 99% of the time the first 3 or 4 ideas I have shared fixes the issue. Hope this helps you out! Brad