raineth

I really, really think the best thing you can do at this stage (before you get to see Steve) is to avoid putting her in a situation where she will display behaviour you don't want. There is no shame in crossing the road, or turning back and going a different way when you see a dog ahead :) Every time she does that behaviour it will get more ingrained and make your job a lot harder.

Sorry Persephone, i forgot to answer this. Yes we have tried thunder shirts with some success, I also find a dog backpack works similarly for her, perhaps even better actually. Haven't tried adaptil though... BC Crazy, it's good to hear the massage is helping Stella :) Yesterday I did a few repetitions of Jazz up and settle down. I thought it went quite well really, although I didn't time it. She does drop immediately upon me asking her, but it takes a little longer to get her fully lying on her side relaxing. I am wondering how useful this is going to be for us in a 'real world' setting though. Her shape, size and thin coat means that I just can't ask her to lay down just anywhere. I can just imagine her trying to feel relaxed as she lays down on wet grass at 6 in the morning when we have our walks :laugh:

Can't tell you much about arousal but I have the same problem with my Greys (but I don't think to the same extent) one in particular and with the young dogs at work. I use massage (Greys are very responsive to massage) when or if I see them in the nanosecond it takes them to load up if I can place my hands on their neck and start a slow massage it definately helps. I also move slowly myself and the feeling I try emulate is the same way you feel when you are just about to fall asleep. I practise this in times of no arousal and I use the word settle so they become conditioned to the word meaning calm down. Having said this I haven't done it off lead in the big wide world just in small areas (back yard) or on lead. I only let mine off lead in certain places and by themselves as I are also concerned with injury I've seen too many dogs hurt themselves and others through running around in that state. Thanks m-j :) it's really interesting to hear your experiences with over-arousal. I will definitely give that relaxing massage a go. I have actually noticed that stroking her neck can help her when her arousal starts to climb. Did you follow any specific massage protocol? I have the book Control Unleashed and I know it has a bit on massage in there that I could use to guide me.

hmm no, is it a bit like the one Ian Dunbar talks about, he calls it 'Jazz up and settle down'? Sounds like it. Anyway, it's a good way to settle a dog down quickly who is easily excited, you can use it for times when you need it. At other times, you can just enjoy the crazies! That's good to know. I only just came upon the 'Jazz up and settle down' exercise so I haven't actually started it yet. Her crazies can be quite fun as you say, just need to get them a little more under control in some situations :)

very interesting Hankdog :) yeah that makes sense, similar to people with ASD when there senses are understimulated will often engage in behaviour that most other people would find too intense. hmm no, is it a bit like the one Ian Dunbar talks about, he calls it 'Jazz up and settle down'?

By over-arousal I mean she gets to the point where she loses impulse control, has lots of trouble focusing and just wants to do lots of zoomies. As you say Perse, quite a lot of dogs get after-bath zoomies, But Del goes like that from lots of things! Like she can only play with Digby for a little bit before she gets so over-excited that she just zoomies instead. It also happens if we play with her. It's not such a big deal when we're at home. But it is a problem if we are on a walk, and I can never let her off lead because of it either. If she was let offlead and something made her get overly aroused, well so many things could go wrong. She has also hurt herself by running into things or off things because she makes poor decisions when she is in that state. She is a very emotional dog, it's like she feels all emotions very, very strongly and gets overwhelmed by them. It makes her a lovely dog in many ways, as she is very loving. I still wouldn't mind her just being a little more relaxed and less on a hair-trigger to crazy land especially when out and about.

I have mentioned it to the vet, but I haven't actually made an appointment specifically about it, and I probably need to, as they don't seem concerned when I mentioned it to them when she was having her vacs for training club. I should say that she does spend a lot of time being 'good', just sleeping or lazing on her bed. So she isn't 'cracker' (our pet term for it) all day, or anything. But yeah, when she is like that you could possibly liken it to ADHD. She is always so much worse in winter because of the cold (I do walk her with her rug on but it only helps a little bit) and we spend most of the walk using techniques and training to keep her focused etc and stopping her from tipping over the edge into cracker land. BAT stands for behavioural Adjustment Training and uses negative reinforcement and keeping dogs under threshold. CC stand for counter conditioning, which is just conditioning a different emotional response to something. :)

It seems to me my girl dog, Delta, has a bit of a problem with arousal. There are lots of things that trigger her into an over-aroused state, such as being cold, being wet, windy weather, prey items... The list goes on really. She even gets into a state of high arousal when she sees Digby is wet. Her arousal can make her super excited, or frustrated, or just 'wild'. Arousal is not something I understand particularly well. I would be really interested to hear anyone's opinions on it, including things about managing it, why it happens, other resources, whether you've known a dog that seems to get overly aroused very easily... Anything really :) Currently I have incorporated BAT, CC, Sophia Yin exercises and impulse control exercises into our training. These have resulted in improvements... But I feel as though they have only made improvements in specific situations and I guess I am hoping there might be some things I could do that would have more of a global effect?

If the collar helps her a bit that is good. Seriously though, as others have said the most important thing you can do until you see Steve is to not put her in those situations where she may react. If you have visitors out her in another room or a crate if you have one. If you want to still take her for walks, make sure to do it when few people are around, and when you see people cross the street. There are two reasons it is very important to avoid confronting her with the things that worry her until you see Steve. The first is that every time she has an aggressive response she is making that behaviour more ingrained. It is like practicing. If you practice anything, you get better at it, right? She is practicing being aggressive, more practice will only make her better at responding to things that worry her with aggressive behaviour. Second, when she growls, it is a warning that she may bite, and it's not nice for people to be bitten by your dog. Also if she bites, she will probably learn it was a very effective thing to do, and will be more likely to do it again when she is afraid, and you will have an even bigger problem on your hands. It is so good that you are doing something to help her by going to see Steve. He will be able to guide you on how exactly to help her, you just need to wait it out at the moment. I wish you and her a lot of success :)

I agree with you BC Crazy and Hankdog, that Stella may well improve yet, especially as she has such a committed and switched-on owner. We animals and humans are designed to be flexible, to adapt to our environments. This means that change is always possible :) As Hankdog says, sure she might not ever be a sunshine and lollypops kind of girl, but to say she wont improve anymore... I wouldn't take it as gospel. My Digby was in an almost opposite situation to Stella, in that he had been through a dreadful environment, but in the behaviourist's opinion, did not have genetically-based problems (all environmental from original owners). The improvements he's made are phenomenal! I wish I could really show people what he was like, and what he is like now. It would give you hope. Truly, the behaviourist described him as a dog that had completely given up when he met him; He is so far from that dog now :) I know that's not exactly like Stella's case, but it shows that big improvements are possible :)

In my old suburb there were lots of Staffords and GSDs. In my new suburb Labradors are by far the most prevalent and there are a few mini schnauzers and small mini-foxie types.

This is one of Digby's favourite things to do (yeah, he's an exciting kinda guy) but because he is just so very big he can cause pretty massive damage to people's lawns, not to mention my physical wellbeing. So I decided to train him to do an alternative behaviour (turn and face me), but he still occasionally gets a few kicks in before turning.

Yes it's great to have a trainer like that. It's really invaluable to have someone else's perspective on things. Del and I got to club, we don't see anyone specifically for her reactivity, but just occasionally the trainers will share an observation with me from what they can see that's helped to keep us on the right track.

i was honestly so shocked and proud and amazed at how awesome his response was that I didn't freak out at all while it was happening and even told the other owner it was okay when he apologised profusely, instead of going off at him (which has been my reaction in the past when Justice has flipped out over being rushed or attacked like that). Justice's reaction was more than reasonable and I don't have any kind of problem with him having growled or trying to defend himself when the dog went for his face. It was completely appropriate to the situation and I would never try to train that out of him. He needs to feel free to warn other dogs and stand up for himself, so long as it's controlled and appropriate. :) Isn't that great, now when these situations occur they are less stressful for both of you :) It's really amazing hey? Under such full on circumstances, he (and you!) really kept it together And sorry, my question about how far do we take our training sounded really awful when I re-read it. It just made think how all dogs react under some certain circumstances and I wonder how I'll go working that out with Delta, when we (hopefully) get there!

Thanks Snook, I am proud of her :) But yikes! That incident sounds so scary! Justice conducted himself wonderfully with your help But gees my blood pressure rose just reading that :/ I think under such circumstances, him reacting a little was very understandable. I suppose it makes me wonder how far do we go with our training? Under some circumstances, reacting would be quite normal, and it sounds as though, that might have been one of those situations. I think the fact he didn't go over threshold speaks volumes :) What a good boy :)

I thought I'd seek ideas from dog-savvy people on Dol. I wouldn't say that I'm so worried that it warrants them cancelling their trip. That would be an over-reaction. I like to plan ahead and look after my dog, and didn't realize it was such a dumb question. Thanks to all who offered ideas. The day was a roaring success. I locked doors and made the backyard off-limits for some of the day. We supervised the kids playing in the front yard after lunch. And then I popped him in the laundry (put a baby-gate on it) for a little while too, and the kids had a bit of time playing in the backyard. He was quite happy in the laundry as he could see us. And I gave him a treat-filled Kong. Whilst I didn't use the crate today, he was happy to spend short periods in there yesterday, so I may invest in one. The 8 year old girl was nervous, but quite fascinated by Bruno. She asked if she could pat him, which is a huge step for her. I took her outside and showed her how to get him to sit, drop and stay. He is always very gentle in the way that he takes treats too, so that gave her a bit of confidence. He was so good, and calmer than normal (phew!) Our friends commented that he was one of the best-behaved dogs they'd met, - he's only done basic obedience though, so maybe they just haven't met many dogs! :laugh: He's back inside now, snuggled on the favourite couch with me. Happy happy joy joy. How good is that! I'm so pleased that the day worked out so well for everyone :)

Del went a little backwards for a while after we moved house. It took her about 10 days to settle in. The area we've moved to has a lot of dogs in front yards and that has be very confronting for her. But we've sussed most of them out now, and I still have many other destinations to walk with very few dogs in front yards. I'm not surprised she's scared, honestly some of them are like ninjas, you have no idea they're there until they are barking inches from your face! We had two dogs run out at us from a front yard the other day, and although she was stressed, she did her automatic sit and made no attempts to actually engage with them and they were right next to her. I was very pleased with her :) She is continuing to improve at a pretty steady pace and that's all I can ask for really :) I know a lot of you have trainers guiding you, but I also know that there are quite a few people who just read, so I thought I'd mention Dr Sophia Yin's DVDs for reactive and hyperactive dogs. I am working my way through them, and they really focus on handler technique. It is very enlightening, and very useful as most other information on reactive dogs focusses a lot on the method, but not so much on handler technique. And I am seeing that even very nuanced technique and body language can make quite a big difference. Although I have a long way to go I have noticed an improvement in the way Del is responding to me. So I think they are worth having a look at for anyone who thinks that their handling skills could use some honing :)

Snook, great update It's really fantastic to hear such an excellent success story :) BC Crazy, how is Stella and Sonny going now? Did you find out why he was sore? that calls for a celebration I think! Sounds like he's really building up those good habits, you must be so happy :) How has he been since?

I have been very lucky, and had no aggression incidents. Neither are resource guarders, and they are both very tolerant in their own way. Del doesn't complain if Digby sits on her, and Digby doesn't complain when Del is being a bit pushy.

I think just from what you have written that it is something at the groomers. You fed Blackhawk for several months and had no flare-ups. Then poodle goes to the groomer and has a big flare-up. This takes a long time to settle down, but does settle down. Then he goes to the groomer again, and again, he has a big flare-up. That to me sounds like pretty good evidence that it is something he is coming into contact with at the groomers. The only other thing to wonder is whether the groomer might be giving hima food treat while he is there? Also, does he get any treats or raw meat or anything that co-incident with a flare-up?

Oh I just love her so much!!!!

Wow! It's like he knew what he had to do :laugh: way to go Gussy you clever boy! Sounds like it opened there eyes a little :)

I can do all that too without taking away my dogs' dinner. What triggers food guarding? The belief that someone might take their food. So therefore actually taking their food might not be a great idea, you might be confirming for them that they need to guard their food, even if you do give it back to them :)

Yep, I used to do this too. Take the dogs home, tie them up and wash the poor things with a hose and sunlight soap :laugh: I also used to walk peoples dogs for them, I wouldn't have been more than 12. I had a regular GSD, Dally, Keeshonds etc. There is NO way I'd allow my daughter to do that. Times have certainly changed! :laugh: I think that's a part of it too. Most suburbs don't have that safety barrier of community that I remember from when I was young. Not saying things were fine and dandy then, but we knew our neighbours and they knew us. Everyone looked out for each other a bit and I think the lack of that makes it harder. Another thing too that is lost sight of, I think, is that (although I am a lot older than most DOLers) when I was growing up more married women were at home and there were many more so-called blue collar jobs whereby men were home a lot earlier (that is if they weren't in the pub ). There were fewer rules and regulations and, most importantly, I think in terms of people's perception of what was dangerous, there was no instanteous media coverage of all the dangers that might lurk in quiet streets. People lived close to where they worked and where children went to school. So very very different from today. I still find it hard to comprehend how parents wouldn't know and, thereby by assumption, allow, their children to go around knocking on people's doors asking if they can walk their dogs. well I reckon the kid with the business card's parents must have definitely known. It doesn't surprise me at all really. I knew the family he came from, they have two dogs that never got walked so they have no idea of what can go wrong when walking a dog as they never do it. As for my own dog washing story, I have absolutely no recollection of whether we asked permission to do it.

My suggestion is that whatever breed of puppy you get, get one from a breeder that has cats. My first GD puppy was raised with 3 cats who stood up for themselves if necessary, and even though we didn't have cats, he never really saw cats as prey and I'm pretty sure it was due to this early exposure. When we met cats on walks he could actually say hello to them (if they were interested of course, mostly they weren't). So I think you'll be giving yourself a head-start if you get a puppy that's already had experience with cats.