Agility Dogs

I need to preface this by saying that we don't compete in obedience, but I do have an expectation that if I tell my dogs to do something (sit, stand, lie down) they continue to do it until they are released - regardless of whether they can see me or not. I teach oos stays as an extension of a usual stay and teach it in the same way as I build duration (ie: once I've achieved distance). So......once I can walk 10m away from my dog I'll walk 10m away and then step out of site - immediately returning to reward. Then I'll stay out of site for 5 seconds, then 10 and so on. If the dog breaks the stay they get put back on the 'stay' spot and I decrease the criteria for a couple of reps then ramp it back up again. We do this in the back yard at home and on some walking tracks that we frequently use. When I'm happy with them in either of these environments I'll use it elsewhere with more distraction. I find it really handy for when I need to get something out of the container at training and I don't want to take them back to their crate. My 5 year old girl will stay where she is put for up to 10 minutes. I put her on a stay and raced to the car at the end of a training day. I got caught up on the trip, but when I got back she was still there in her down. She then proceeded to try and get me to play - it wasn't that she was tired......... I've never pushed my boy past about 2 mins. My puppy is at the 30 second stage, but we are working at building more time. It's not really a focus though. FTR - my criteria for a stay is that feet don't move at all once they are on the stay. Any departure from this and they are replaced on their spot.

ROFL - if you ask my Xena that is what they were made for. I've resigned myself to the fact that I've let her go too far and short of pulling her out of the ring for 6 or 9 months I'll now be managing them for the rest of her career (not the end of the world and its not stopping us from getting some great results). We've had two moments that have meant that the rules are somewhat enforced - she didn't hit the down RAMP (as opposed to contact) on a dog walk one day - far more fun to jump........Then she did the same on an A Frame. Needless to say my puppy has amazing contacts and will not be allowed to break criteria in the ring....EVER.

REWARD, REWARD, REWARD, REWARD. In ADAA trials drop on the table is part of the course - no drop, no get off table and continue. The dogs need to see value in dropping on the table. Remember - these aren't dogs that have been doing agility for any length of time so this is more a shaping exercise than anything else.

On that note HRW is on her back from our Vet after her checkup. She is 'Wiry and Flexible - perfect'. Oh and dead cute into the bargain. (Sorry to hijack my own thread, but it was for good reason!) :cool:

I am just LOVING training my 14 month old BC puppy at the moment. I fumbled through training my older two dogs with a mixture of corrections (to varying degrees and using various techniques), manual positioning, luring and finally a little bit of shaping. They are now both fantastic at what they do and I'm very proud. BUT my puppy is a revelation. I think it is because she learned to learn from day one with me (and I suspect a little at her Breeder's as well - she was a 'problem solver' according to her breeder). Now when we are learning new things she is immediately switched on and offers behaviours as soon as she realises it is a new game. What amazes me is that with the other two I find they are working to achieve the reward - primary and almost only motivation. With Wikki she seems to be working to solve the problem and is then wrapped to receive the reward at the end of the process. (Reward rate with Wikki has also been much higher than it was with the other two in the early stages.) She still has a long way to go before she is a reliable agility dog, but the trip is so much more enjoyable this time around. Not that it wasn't with the other two, but I'm marvelling at how the little dog learns and how the different approach i've adopted has made such a difference. I'm already excited about my next pup - just to see if I can improve on this journey! (I know every pup will be different and the challenges will be different, but for me the discovery of their learning styles is enthralling.) Has anyone else sat back and looked at the way their training has changed or am I just weird? FTR - I'm not talking about behavioural modification, I'm not comparing positive to correction based training, I'm talking about YOUR ability to get the most out of your dogs and how it has changed over time and why.

I think you need to trust your breeder more, and if you can't trust them, maybe they aren't the breeder for you. The breeder has spent seven or eight weeks with the puppies, seen them every day in a ton of different situations and has likely done temperament testing etc on them (especially if they are a serious sports breeder). They will also have had an extensive chat with you about what you want and expect. I would trust them to pick the right puppy for you given all their experience and time with the pups over the impression you build (even if you go and see them a few times). To add in my 2 cents worth in here... trusting the breeder is one thing if they have proven that they know what their doing with assessing puppies (like if they compete in some sort of sport) but realistically there are some breeders that really have no idea. I have spoken to soo many breeders who have absolutely no idea on temperment and will place a pup in any old home. My current bitch is from such a breeder, she let me pick what ever I wanted first before she simply gave the rest of the puppy buyers have their pick... thankfully I ended up with Ella and not some pet home who wanted a calm friendly dog who would cope in the backyard with a half hour walk! Picking the right breeder is probably as important as picking the right puppy. To the OP - have you considered looking interstate for a good breeder? The right breeder/puppy isn't always in your state. Agree with this too. Both my dogs breeders have a good number of dogs titled in agility, this is why I trusted them. There were a number of breeders I didn't trust and didn't ask to pick a dog for me........

For me it would depend entirely on who was doing the picking. ;) Howie was picked for me. I had never seen him before he arrived in his little crate at the airport. Snap. Both CK and Wikki were more or less picked for me by the breeders. CK was pointed out of a litter as 'the one who is available', Wikki had already been 'tagged' as a performance dog and her breeder decided she was OK for me. Both of them have turned out to be exactly what I asked for. I really don't know what I'm looking for in a pup so I'm happy to outline what the dog is for, what characteristics I want and let a trusted breeder judge their puppies.

This - especially if you are happy with the club and the instructors. I've worked really hard so that I can leave mine in a crate and train the other one on the field without them screaming like Banshees. They do make a little noise when they first see the other one come out, but a crate cover quickly fixes that. ;-) When we first took them to training my girl used to escape my wife and come running to find me. (She was in an on lead class!!) Now she will work for anyone - we are even going to play pairs shortly with my two dogs on the one team. Like anything it can be trained with patience and time.

Has worked perfectly for me - so far so good!

I sent my breeder a list - for agility, not obedience, but much the same I should imagine. Confidence. (Attitude optional - unfortunately I think she missed this bit. ) Conformation. Drive. Everything else was desirable, but not essential. I'm sure others will have more extensive lists and fill in gaps I've missed, but that was pretty much it for me.

I have been hassled to get some more video of Woo by various people so I thought I'd share last night's effort. This is her see saw work in progress. I love my Woo!

My boy does it whenever he gets something stuck in his stupid Border Collie coat - which is quite often. Then when I take it out he jumps up all over me as if to say thank you. One night we were playing in the back yard and he pulled up looking lame during a game of tug. It turned out that a slug had attached itself to the feathering on his front let. I took the slug off and he attached himself to my side and just wouldn't move. It took 3 months to get him to tug again!! The girls couldn't care less about anything and just keep on going no matter what. Sometimes you have to protect them from themselves.

or the other alternative - fighting, and not being able to escape Learned this one the hard way. Nothing serious, but puppy did end up with a hole in her nose. All 3 are now crated seperately. I would be going for seperate wire crates. Easier to clean and more secure. I love my soft crates for trials, but they are all in metal crates at home.

agree... the average dog owner does not know nor understand the true definition of neutralization...even some trainers i know have the lines blurred between truly neutral and excellent stimulus and command control of their dog. I don't know of many obedience schools that teach true neutral socialisation maybe because it is seen as a "working dog" thing rather than a average pet owner thing....I am all for teaching owners that "I" am the centre and most exciting thing in my dogs life but how many ppl really get it right...there can be a fine line between getting the dog to focus on your every word and incorrect socialisation if they misunderstand even the slightest.... Most people with performance dogs struggle to deal with criteria IMO. Last week I was told I was splitting hairs because I asked someone if they were happy with their dog lifting one foot when they were on a stay. (Stupid BC ready to go lifting one foot.) Trying to get even people who are happy to get around an agility course or teach a dog to do a clean flyball run to understand the value of clear criteria is hard enough. Let alone trying to do it with 'average' pet owners. (Although that said, some of our best students started out as average pet owners. Personally, I was a very below average owner and have just caught the bug.

I had this problem with my two to begin with. I was clueless, the dogs didn't know their names at 4 months of age, but they did like 'people time'. (yes, two puppies ). We sadly had to put one to sleep at 7 months, but between 4 and 7 months we started training the dogs daily, seperating them at every opportunity and by the time Rex was PTS we had actually sorted his behavioural issues. Then we created a similar (although not nearly as bad) problem when our next dog came into the house. He was trained from day 1, but was still more strongly bonded to our other dog than he was to us. Again, it took work, but he now (he is 5, but hey....) has a lot more value on me than he does our other dog. It can be done, even from the point that you are describing, but it takes work and a lot of it. 3 hours a day should be plenty though - just needs to be time well spent. FTR, my current pup was not allowed to interact with the other two until she was at a stage I was happy with. No such problems this time around. ETA - Susan Garrett's Ruff Love is a great book to help with this kind of thing.

Very cool. Maybe its just the Winpara genes we've been lucky with!!

but if they started to become more dog focused and didn't give a toss about me then I'd do things differently. Your dogs will never not give a toss about you, but why take the risk and have to fix it? ;)

No puppy that I bring into my home will be run with my adult dogs either.

Absolutely essential. Nothing annoys me more than turning up somewhere that is 'dog friendly' and 'fully fenced' to find out that there is not a fence that would keep ANY dog in, let along my 3. Let manicured gardens with full sprinkler systems and lighting systems in place that are expected to still be there when we have left.

I don't see anyone saying that your dog should never be socialised with other dogs, when I get my new puppy she will be around other dogs all the time but the key for me is that the focus will be on teaching her that they aren't something overly exciting, valuable or rewarding. No puppy that I bring into my home will be run with my adult dogs either. Why do you keep typing what I'm thinking? My puppy was crated and kept seperate from my two older dogs until she was about 6 months old. During that time she met hundreds of other dogs, but always on my terms. From the age of 4 months (she came to live with us at 3 months) she could work around other dogs without having to run off and visit. Now at 14 months she loves nothing more than to play with other dogs and is very appropriate in how she does it. I don't think you need to constantly run your dogs with other dogs for them to be well socialised. It's all about blanace and making sure that they are able to achieve the criteria you set them - whatever that may be. For some (like me) that will mean the absolute ability to either ignore or come away from any other excitement that might be going on around them, for others it might be that they will (eventually?) come when they are called at the dog park. For others it might just mean that they don't try and eat other dogs when you walk past them in the street. At the end of the day, if you are happy with your dog's abilities then as long as you aren't annoying/impacting on others then it doesn't matter to anyone else. To me dog/dog socialisation is only about 5% of what socialising a dog is about. Of FAR more importance is their general ability to cope with siutations they are likely to find themselves in.

I have seen this. Dogs, who are an only dog, gets sooo excited when they get to play with another dog they they do not know when to stop. What you say makes sense, but is quite foreign to me. I have a multi dog house hold. When I did have just the one dog it was a dog who is so disinterested in other dogs they may as well not exist. I would definitely have to rethink if we were an only dog household with my current pup though. She is a social butterfly. Fortunately she learned her manners very early on and has had them reinforced since joining our pack.

LOL. I wouldn't mind at all, except I can't remember them for sure!! We are all for the people just want to have fun brigade. We've actually taken the club from almost exclusively BC's from two or three well known kennels that run at a national standard to ALL types of breeds. A lot of our members have no intention of ever trialling, but are respectful to those of us who do. Bottom line though is that no one has any fun when hyped up dogs are getting in other hyped up/intense dogs faces and being told off for their efforts - this is what has motivated us to make the changes. (FTR, I have quick BC's and am very serious about trialling/training, but was the one who drove a lot of the change through the club. You can achieve a balance of both, just takes a bit of work IMO.) I won't have worded these properly, but from memory I do know: Sit Stay/start line stay with minimal distraction. Handler focus/recall with minimal distractions. (ie: other dogs working on the field if not in close proximity.) Circle work - left and right. Ability to drive to a toy or bait plate independent of handler. (And then come back.) Drop on table (ADAA requires a drop, but it also demonstrates they've done some work that they would not have come in with) Ability to sit quietly while other dogs are working. (Really aimed at encouraging crating rather than tying out, but we don't care which, as long as the dog is safe and relatively quiet). Perch/Pivot Box work. Need to be able to put front feet on pivot box and follow the owner around in a circle in both direction. Demonstrate a trick The key ones are sit stay, recall and circle work (essentially heeling on either side). If a dog can't do these then it won't get to come and play on the 'busy' night. For the moment they will be training on the same night as our instructors who have dogs that can cope with situtaions that might arise or can at least call their dogs away from those situations. The tricky bit will be the change over from the current state to the new world. Some people may have to make the choice to go back and do a bit more work in the earlier class or we may have to help them make that decision.

I think it depends on what you mean by socialisation, but using my definition - NO, you cannot socialise your dog enough. To me this means getting them into new situations and helping them understand how to react appropriately if they need that help. People, surfaces, noises, spaces, wheelchairs, skateboards, shopping trolleys, traffic lights, dogs, you name it, I want them to be able to cope with it, but keep me at the centre of their world. There is also a reason that Dogs are at the bottom of the list. I don't want them interested in other dogs unless I let them go and play and this is only ever with other dogs I know and trust. I've seen too many 'friendly' dogs go from friendly to not quite so friendly in the blink of an eye. My dogs just need to be able to work around other dogs and know that they are not nearly as cool as whatever it is we happen to be doing.

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I would say in general, the 2 main reasons for dogs doing zoomies in agility relate to: reward system issues connection/communication issues A couple of things to think about... typically in agility, we don't spend anywhere near the time we need to building a reward system. If we provide our dogs with the highest value reward we can, agility becomes solely about a chance to earn that reward. If we don't provide it, we get one of three things...lack of effort, distraction/zoomies or a case where the obstacles themselves become the reward. I think communication/ staying in touch with our dogs is not focussed on enough either. Too often we ask the dog to do something but are not clear about what comes next. This leads to either dogs slowing down & asking questions or dogs who choose to make their own minds up about what will come next. We are in the middle of redesigning our club's training courses with exactly this in mind. Our beginners will go from an intensive 8 week all inclusive over view that assumes this stuff is in place before the dog starts to a relationship building experience for dog and handler. At the end of that dogs and handlers will be assessed and if they pass 6 strict criteria they will be invited to come and train with the 'big' dogs on another night. Focus is totally about handler/dog relationship with NO equipment at all. (except where it is needed for a couple of exercises.)