Rex

How can you be sure the dog learns exactly those two things? What happens if the dog never realises that attempting to get to another dog has 100% failure rate because the dog is always so worked up at that point that it can't learn very much at all and just reacts to the frustration of not being able to reach its target? And then let's say the dog is like that dog I grew up with and associates the unpleasant experience of being whipped around with the sight of other dogs it wants to get at. Say the dog never learns that this is self-inflicted because at the time of the correction it is wholly focused on the object of its fear/distress and is not even consciously aware of what it is doing and what you are telling it to do. Mixing pain and fear is, IMO, a recipe for disaster. Stringing a dog up until it passes out? That's a pretty violent thing to do to an animal. I'd rather PTS. All I can tell you is my experience with a dog exhibiting civil aggression towards strangers and other dogs with the corrections beginning with treat training (positive reinforcement) costing me $600 worth of methods that failed and a trainer who concluded that my dog was basically a head case, untrainable???. With the fortune of having a Police K9 trainer who specialises in GSD's and trains in aggression test the dog and conclude that he was a perfect candidate for Police/security work with a good hard temperament and steady nerve, things dramactically changed when learning how best to handle this issue. What I can tell you based on the K9 trainer's methods which does include some of the William Koehler leash correction techniques, it's transformed my dog from a situation where he wanted to attack/bite everyone, into a civilised gentleman that responds to voice commands on or off leash over a 3 month period of intensive training. Just having returned home from a walk and thinking about this thread on the way, I took a route along a series of backfences where my dog being previously an aggressive fence fighter to dogs barking on the other side, I unleashed him through that section around a 1 km long. As the dog's rushed at their back fences barking furiously which was about 5 or 6 houses in that stretch, my dog didn't venture more than a leash distance from heel with "leave it" commands. At the last house of barking dogs, he looked in the direction of the house with alertness, but remained at heel, no commands, I didnt say anything except "good boy" and a pat & rub as we passed by. I conclude that the leash training and correction methods for my dog works???. My wife achieved the same thing with our 6 year old Golden Retriever who was a life long cronic leash puller and corrected the problem in two walking sessions with command's & leash corrections. Her command to him is "loose leash" and he backs into heel immediately???.

when do you think any correction should be applied, when your dogs already flipping out or before he gets to that uncontrollable stage. Who were you quoting above, Nekhbet? I can't find it. Me, that's why I replied. I'd told Rex that punishing my dog with an "almighty leash correction" as recommended hadn't stopped his aggressive behaviour, and Rex told me that I should have choked him out as a correction instead. No you didn't Staranais, you said that no form of physical punishment will stop your dog when it's in the zone or something to that effect and I pointed out that the physical effect of choking out will definitely stop it.

What happens in a situation without a clicker and treat say for instance the dog slipped past you at the gate whilst focusing on a dog walking past on the street when the dog has learned to obey a click and reward???.

That's what I was taught in the timing of the correction. When the dog has already reached the end of the leash and is fired up in aggression, it's too late to try and admininster any jerking leash corrections, in fact it makes thing worse by agitating the dog to fire up harder and more aggressively. The exercise at that point is blown and fluffed up, missed the que. All I could do at that point was drag the dog away briskly in the opposite direction, then praise him when he caught up focused back upon me. Having said that, GSD's are not predatory in aggression "get'em at all costs", they react more to the closeness of the threat. Once distance has been achieved between you and what the dog perceives as a threat, they give it up in belief I guess that the threatening situation has been resolved.

I have never tried it and hope that I don't need to. It was a procedure told to me by a Police K9 trainer breaking in a dog with severe handler aggression, and I have read about this method also, Leerburg, Koehler etc.

Tried that method with my GSD, $600 worth of dog whispering that didn't work, useless in fact with dog/stranger aggression. A business customer of ours we learned was a Police K9 trainer, was interested in our dog, and spent time with us teaching his methods of correction which worked instantly with drastic improvements. 3 months prior, my wife wouldn't walk our GSD after being pulled off her feet and bruising her leg badly nick naming him "the devil dog". Now, he walks calmly past dogs and strangers on a loose leash, a 12 year old child could handle him.

quote name='Staranais' date='18th Jul 2009 - 09:37 PM' post='3839659'] For the record, I also had no success giving almighty leash corrections for aggression to my dog (and neither did trainers I consulted). Like Deelee, once my staffy was "in the zone" he simply couldn't care less about any type of physical punishment (and yes, I'm sorry to say we tried some very harsh corrections over the years). If anything, a hard correction razzed him up for the fight even more. Which I guess makes sense, when you think about it - would a staffy that gave up when pain was administered be any use in a dog fight (or fighting rats or bulls, as his more distant ancestors were bred to do?) Oh yes there is a physical application that will remove any dog from the "zone" which is stringing them up with a choke collar and cutting off their oxygen supply until they pass out which is a procedure used in aggression, especially handler aggression. As severe as this procedure sounds, the alternative measure in these cases of severe aggression is being PTS, where the former method corrects the dog and enables the dog to live it's life.

When my dog sees another dog and displays aggressive behaviour that is fear driven, IMO it is not as simple as being "serious disobedience". Assuming that one heavy handed method would work to perfection with all dogs who display aggression is simply short sighted, IMO. Lets assume that the dog is obedience trained at low level distraction, understands and responds to commands. Until basic obediance has been achieved, the dog hasn't graduated to high level distractions and shouldn't be exposed to them at that stage. The leash correction is administered for disobeying the "leave it" command and from experience of knowing what the dog will do, when it will lunge for example, the moment the dog see's the other dog and becomes alert to it at a distance you firmly command "leave it". The moment the short leash tightens and dog thrusts forwards, the slack is dropped and turn back in the opposite direction and keep walking with another "leave it" command. The dog comes to the end of the leash as you have picked up momentum in the opposite direction along with a harsh yank, the forward motion of the dog with the intent of getting the other dog unsuccessfully comes to a sharp ending. The dog once heavily distracted forgets it's on the leash and the shock of coming to dead stop and suddenly whipped around in the oppposite direction, it learns two things. Firstly no matter how hard he/she trys to get another dog, the attempt has a 100% failure rate and secondly the sudden stop and whip around is an unpleasant experience that the dog learns was self inflicted. The dog doesn't realise that the handler did anything and when the dog catches back up into a heel position, you praise and pat the dog for heeling beside you where he/she is supposed to be. The dog learns the comfort zone and how pleasant it is to walk by your side and follow your every move. When the situation arises where the dog attempts to bolt out the gate seeing another dog across the road, on a "leave it" command the dog will turn about off leash and come back.

I agree with gathering up the slack of the leash, but not to throw it at the dog, but to drop the slack as the dog is about to take an aggressive lunge with a "leave it" command, about turn and administer an almighty Bill Koehler style leash correction. The dog needs to learn quickly that the thought of administering discomfort upon others will cause some discomfort for him/her self. My GSD was a liability by 18 months of age, a complete nightmare with stranger/dog aggression on leash wanting lunge at and bite everyone which no positive reinforcement training made the slightest difference. After 4 or 5 good leash corrections, he knows what comes next after a "leave it" command if he doesn't stay by my side. He would love to have a lunge, my God would he, but on the "leave it" command he looks up straight at me now for another "leave it" command, and walks past the stranger/dog like a perfect gentleman. I believe that aggression behaviour is a serious disobediance fault that requires a serious correction which does work to perfection especially with dogs of hard temperaments.

It's interesting that several GSD breeders/trainers have told me that desexing a male GSD only reduces male to male dog aggression in the presence of a bitch in season and otherwise has no effect. They have also mentioned that male GSD's of hard nerve and stranger aggressive when desexed have become skittish and handler aggressive/fear biters with unpredictability???.

That sounds a bit strange to me???, needs a little more clarification what the dog is doing in what circumstances???. My GSD male just over 2 years old and entire, is from a bloodline of hard temperaments solid nerve with high civil aggression that is required in protection work, but with his family and friend base is a big softy, absolutely not the slightest hint of handler aggression even in full defence drive, I could put my hand in his mouth, take food from him, man handle him with totally loyalty in that regard. Handler/family aggression in a GSD is not a common trait and is major reason why GSD's are better than other breeds in working roles that require aggression and the ability to attack/defend for their owner/handler devotion and trust. Perhaps a training issue where the dog believes he is the leader of the household pack growling to ascert his aurthority???

GSD's are good at everything lol!!!! and do well in agility. We were advised not to jump them until 12 months of age when their bones and joints are developed and with our boy, we began light jumps at 14 months. At just over 2 years old now, jumps are something he loves and has done well. We need now that he jumps on command to learn trialling him properly.

I am not aware of any head hunting prescribed breeds in Adelaide with a general rule that providing the dog doesn't get into mischief and create the wrong attention, it should be fine. None the less, the worst that can happen is a dangerous dog notice being applied which means a leash and muzzle in a public place and a warning sign on your gate. They don't impound dogs in S.A. unless they have caused some serious problems. An Amstaff cross is not a prescribed breed and if it's a good dog, most authorities will accept that.

The BSL is essentially a legislation that discourages or prevents the ownership of specific breeds that possess the potential of extreme strength and courage with the ability to fight that is considered unsuitable for the general population to handle such breeds safely and effectively. The breeds listed by the BSL consist of the Fila Brasiliero, Dogo Argintino, Japanese Tosa, Presa Canario and the American Pit Bull Terrier. None of these breeds are recognised or supported by the Australian National Kennel Club (ANKC) Australia's major canine controlling body. Anti BSL campaigners are primarily connected with or owners of backyard bred extracts of the American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT) that the BSL legislation effected the ownership and breeding practices of these animals to eventually create extinction which they object. Anti BSL has little importance other than to legalise the breeding and ownership of the APBT and mixtures of ultimately motivated and driven by self interest. The BSL legislation does not affect the future of any breeds recognised and supported by the ANKC.

I'm training my 8mth old GSD using this method and I couldn't agree more. I constantly watch her for good behaviour ie. click and treat when she looks at me instead of the dog barking along the fenceline. I now find that when she see's a dog waiting for her (within their yard), she will look at me (because "good" things happen when she looks at me ). If she starts pulling I might put her in a sit and CALMLY put her through a few excersises (sit, stand, drop in the one position), and when I have her full attention we'll start CALMLY walking again. I would look at it as a 15 minute training session, instead of a 15 minute walk being extended because she's pulling on the lead. Remember she's still only a baby. By the way Shellectra, after your girls earlier health problems, she's turned out a lovely LH Shepherd This is a good example that Gsdog2 has given us how her GSD girl responds to treat training where my GSD boy didn't at all, same breed entirely different temperament. How I wish that mine did at 8 months of age, but with a hard bloodline police/security dog background compared with pet/show breedings they respond to completely different techniques.

The "positive only" (so to speak) organisations/groups generally push/recommend the use of the head collars and they are often promoted as a "kinder, gentler" training tool. Or if not openly promoted that way, it is insinuated - merely by their expressions of disapproval of other collars for the 'danger' of mis-use, but omitting the mention of any danger of mis-use of the head collar. IMO, if you say to one you should say to the other. Otherwise it eludes (or do I mean 'alludes'?) the reader to thinking otherwise ...... I don't know if that's the desired goal or not. From what I have read on the misuse of a Halti appears to have more potential to cause injury than the traditional choke chain and therefore have no interest in using one. Dogs of a hard temperament dominant nature still require to feel some level of unpleasantness to understand the difference of working correctly and incorrectly. "Positive only" methods with some dogs results in them basically laughing at you and will do as they please, when they please!!!!.

I don't believe that too many "professional trainers" use or recommend Haltis. I am not referring to franchisee's of a training system business as some of these trainers I have found are not overly experienced other than teaching a system or selling equipment that their business promotes and do on occassion recommend the use of such equipment. But for the experienced professional, check chains and fursaver chains are usually what is used.

Huski, I don't think you are a bad dog handler quite the opposite given that you have taken responsiblity to perfect your techniques and asked for others opinions in an area that isn't working so well is a good thing, great in fact Many can't be bothered trying to rectify a training problem and put it in the too hard basket which amounts to half a hearted handler, which isn't you!!!. I like the positive reinforcement methods and the treats because I adore my GSD and hope to achieve a special bond with him and make training a pleasant experience not fling him around on the end of a choker chain and distress him, but as I mentioned previously, he is naturally aggressive from a bloodline of security/police dog backgrounds wanting to lunge at and bite people outside of his family and friend base which was a serious problem that couldn't be allowed to continue and a training method had to used to correct the problem fast. It wasn't a minor disobediance we could afford to mess around with using techniques that didn't appear to be helping. Harsh leash corrections isn't something I enjoy to administer, in fact I often pet him and tell him I am sorry for being hard on him after our walks when returning home, but trying to bite people is intolerable and the corrections have worked absolutely perfectly in all regards a total breakthrough for us in gaining his total focus.

Excellent advice, I totally agree

That's my point though... if I gave her a 'damn good hard leash correction' when she's in full scent drive it won't affect her. I could pull her up on her back legs with the leash and she would still have her nose out trying to smell things. She's not ignoring me on purpose she's running on pure adrenaline. I'm not too worried about the scenting as we are working on drive training at the moment so I know it will improve the further we come in training. A proper leash correction is not yanking the leash backwards when they are already at the end of the leash straining. At heel the leash should be short with the slack gathered up in your right hand. When they pull forward ahead of you, as in scent drive as you explained, drop the slack and about turn with the "yank" occurring as they reach the end of the leash and it "will" effect them from the sudden halt and gain their attention. She is ignoring you on purpose when she ignores a command that she knows, she is being defiant knowing full well that she will get away with it. My GSD not only had scent drives and would pull on the leash, he has a high level of civil aggression lunging on the leash to bite people approaching us which "no" treats would counteract. The leash work given to us by a police K9 trainer fixed the disobediance problems entirely to the point now he heels off leash under voice control. Good luck

When she pulls on the leash it's normally because she's heavily distracted by a scent so I will give her either the heel or look command, if she responds I will give her a treat and if she doesn't respond (seriously distracted) I try to break her off the scent by stopping or changing direction. There's no point giving her much of a leash correction as if she's in serious "scent drive" she will ignore it A quick pop of the leash will work if she ignores my command and isn't really really distracted by a scent. Occasionally, she obeys me straight away, will heel nicely with me for some time until I treat her and once she's got the treat she'll run to the end of the leash and will go straight back on the scent. However, if I've got her on my own, she's very good 99% of the time. It's when we walk with Micha she seems to have a lot more energy and will muck around more. You are best to give her a damn good hard leash correction, about turn when she pulls and yank the leash as hard as you can in the opposite direction and pull her off her feet as you keep walking in that direction until she heels. A couple of those will teach her that her choice to ignor you has an unpleasant result. She has your measure and is out smarting you at present with the treats. My German Shepherd used to do exactly that to the point he could pull my wife off her feet with a sudden scent drive and she fell over hurting her ankle on one occassion. In heel, our boy after 2 harsh corrections doesn't sniff at all and heels for as far as we can walk.

Most of the talk in reference to prescribed breeds are generally Pit bulls, but what about the others on the list, Japanese Tosa etc etc, does anyone know if the others listed are in captivity or popular amoungst certain groups of people???. I can't recall ever hearing a reference to prescribed breeds other than the APBT???. Considering many cross breeds can have a Pit Bull resemblance in some way, it would be interesting to know the number of pure breed APBT's that have caused such a danger to influence their inclusion on the BSL???.

Ultimately the dog needs to be trained not to bolt at the opportunity of an open door/gate which requires exercises purposely introducing her to an opened door/gate on leash and teach her what she is to do in those circumstances. I would assume when taking her out for a walk, she probably excitingly pulls like mad on the leash as you exit the door which if so, that behaviour is the first thing I would correct that will greatly assist the present bolting problem off leash. When opening the door/gate to go for a walk, command the dog to sit then open the door. If she gets up to bolt, the moment her backside lifts off the floor, give a firm NO command and a sharp crack on the leash and make her sit again. Continue the exercise until she remains seated whilst the door is opened and praise her for good behaviour. The same applies when moving forward through the door and she begins to pull and surge fowards with excitement, NO and a crack on the leash and go back inside and close the door and repeat the exercise until she sits at the open door and proceeds in an orderly fashion. She needs to learn that bolting and pulling will result in going back inside not out to investigate the other side of the fence. With persistance and repetition she will learn what is required of her, but it takes time. The other thing that works well with bolters is to set them up and catch them in the act. Have someone hide around the corner out front and leave the door open tempting her to bolt. The moment she makes a move out the door, have the assistant front her and chase her back inside with harsh NO GRRRRRR and give her a fright of what happens if she tries on a bolter!!!. Hope this helps.

I assume that most states have similar legislation in regard to prescribed breeds (dangerous dogs) as South Australia which as I understand it, the legislation permitted for example Pit Bulls to be kept under specific conditions, one being that they had to be de-sexed and could not be sold or given away. In respect of the legislation should owners of existing Pit Bulls comply in reference to the requirement of de-sexing and legislation breach to on sell them, how are these breeds continuing to multiply legally in these circumstances???. Should the legislation be adhered to, it would arrive at the situation where the Pit Bull would no longer exist due to the inability to legally reproduce and sell. Wouldn't it be fair to say given such legislation, that the impounding and destruction of dogs determined as a prescribed breed is the fault of the people who continue to breed, market and own such animals contrary to the legislation???.