Bull Arab

Awesome thanks mate. Will def get to the GC training day if we can (assuming the PA has not already booked me out that day)with the usual 3 suspects! www.bark.asn.au

Now all we need is a Disk Dog club in my area that doesn’t train on a Friday night and I know at least 3 dogs that would be very excited to have a go. 'The Blond One', AKA 'The Idiot' had a go on Sat and seemed to get the concept (his brother showed him a few pointers).

Let me know what you want. I have a Dane cross bull breed (and 5 pure bred dogs to go with it) that was described by a well known internationally recognized dog trainer as "a good ambassador for the cross breed dog" who is a trusted member of the family and is the only one the 4 year old is allowed to train by her self.

I have to say this is the best "well balanced" discussion I have seen on DOL in a long time. Good to see both sides of the fence agreeing to put forward a good logical explanation and posting their thoughts at the same time. One can learn a lot form reading stuff like this. I might not agree, might not use some of the stuff on here but on the other hand I might just pick up a tip or two I can use, or even worse (just kidding) an understanding of a different type of training. Thanks all and keep it up Click and treat for all of you

Thanks very much for the explanation guys I understand the principals it was the definitions I was not familiar with. Negative reinforcement I understand and being a horse trainer use frequently, positive punishment I think we all use regularly (clap hands and use a loud 'NO' to break a behaviour such as barking at the chooks for e.g before redirecting to a more appropriate behaviour) so I do appreciate having a name for it! Cheers

I did. And that quote to me, in the context that you posted, implies two things; One, that you cannot teach a new behaviour via positive punishment. Please excuse my ignorance and this is meant as a learning point for me and that's all (not having a dig) but what is your definition of positive punishment? How can a punishment be positive? From there (at the risk of anthropomorphising) is the animal doing the behaviour because it wants to and it looks forward to what happens when it does, or is it because bad stuff might happen if it doesn't and therefore feels it has to?

Lets say figuratively a quiet voice (no one who knows me would call me or any of our dogs quiet) but I do use a much quieter voice on the horses than the dogs! And I agree totally about only sticking to one method, depending on its job a dog that will only work for a treat may not be as effective as one that will work for a tuggie (if driving away from you ??). Would it not be better to use the reward that suits the dog (even a "yes" or a belly rub or acknowledgement if that’s what it takes) and the circumstance and the objective? This is where the "it takes time" comes into my argument because you may need to establish the relationship before you have a hope of finding out what works with some animals and it may be blatantly obvious with others, especially when they are bashing you in the leg with the tuggie!!! My point is aimed at what I would prefer the newby (was my self not that long ago) or the person who has the right intentions just doesn’t have the knowledge to use.

Read the meaning not the words!! Training is about understanding, listening, speaking softly and working to achieve an aim the animal (be it a dog a horse a ferret or a chicken) is as happy to achieve as you are and is happy to do display again and again and again because it wants to not because it has to. My views on prongs and check chains are the same. In the right hands, used the right way I am sure they work, are not that harsh and i am sure they produce reliable, consistent results I have seen some fantastic outcomes from good trainers. But what about the newby???? What about the bloke who picks up a book to learn or gets a tip off the net or goes to one or two classes but doesn't really understand? What about the guy who thinks the dog is an extension of his appendage or must be dominated? Used incorrectly (intentionally or not) or used with malice the very least you can do with a check or prong is put the training back a bit, but continue to do it wrong even with the best intentions, or use it harshly and you can destroy a dog (physically and mentally)forever. If the newby gets it wrong with a treat and a clicker or with a treat and a key word the very worst they can do is train the wrong behaviour to the wrong signal. Most people can fix that given a little instruction and generally the dog is no (or very little) worse off. I know what way I would prefer to see people train. If it's classic quotes you want I would like to quote the second best animal trainer I know and the person who has inspired me the most when it comes to understanding animals and training for the love of just training:---Mr Monty Roberts For a young boy, it is a long time before he knows his alphabet. A longer time before he can spell, and maybe years before he can read distinctly; and yet, there are people who will get on a young horse, entirly untaught, and undressed, fancy that by beating and spurring, they will make him a dressed horse in one moring only. I would love to ask such stupid people whether by beating a boy they would teach him how to read without first showing him the alphabet? Sure they would beat him to death before they would make him read. - Monty Roberts Errrr so you think that using a prong collar is akin to beating your dog? If so then you obviously have no understanding of the tool or how to use one correctly... Prong collars have a multitude of uses beyond simple corrections for misbehaviour. Besides, anyone who harshly and physically corrects (or "beats") their dog for something the dog does not understand is an idiot.

If it's classic quotes you want I would like to quote the second best animal trainer I know and the person who has inspired me the most when it comes to understanding animals and training for the love of just training:---Mr Monty Roberts For a young boy, it is a long time before he knows his alphabet. A longer time before he can spell, and maybe years before he can read distinctly; and yet, there are people who will get on a young horse, entirly untaught, and undressed, fancy that by beating and spurring, they will make him a dressed horse in one moring only. I would love to ask such stupid people whether by beating a boy they would teach him how to read without first showing him the alphabet? Sure they would beat him to death before they would make him read. - Monty Roberts

Seriously? is it worth the grief for you and the club and the innocent folks just going to train and enjoy their dogs? It is not about you v the club there are mums and dads and kiddies and their dogs there as well! No doubt it will get heated again and just be unpleasant and that will reflect in the way your dog perceives the situation and wont help your training will it? We go out it gets stressful, people yell, this wide world is a scary place!!! Why bother? Would the bigger person not just walk away and find somewhere else? I could even give you some sensible suggestions if you are looking for somewhere nearby to socialize your dog and train it using what works for you.

Same, what an odd rule. I am sure I would not have made it past being told that, I would put my leash on my dogs flat collar and walk off! Logan is a pretty big area I know there are plenty of other clubs nearby. I am sure that most trainers could find one that meet their needs and trains their way regardles of what it is.

Guess that makes me a below average dog owner then? Especially given I think she still has a long way to go before she is where I want her to be. But I do know this girl is focused on me, looks to me for direction (most of the time)and when she is not sure often offers me a behavior to see if it's the one I want. She can work off leash in a high drive situation around other high drive dogs chasing balls and running and jumping etc and retains her focus (most of the time). She is still reactive she will still bark at things but the focus is improving and the focus is on me. One might gain control in minutes with an aid but is the dog safe off leash or around others (this was about a dog obedience club after all not a security situation) I doubt they are an instant fix, regardless of who is using them the dog will still be the dog it is when you are not physically holding the collar what then? For the average dog owner six months is a long time to get your dog under enough control that you can walk it outside or anywhere near distractions. I've seen owners gain control of severely aggressive dogs in minutes with a properly used prong collars. Just because someone is using a prong collar doesn't also mean they are using rewards. It's just a tool like any other - head collar, martingale, harness, check chain, a leash and collar.

Ok again just my opinion You are spot on how can the dog even begin to get the hint if it does not know whats going on or that you are asking it to do stuff......However, If the dog is in such a state (anxiety, lack of manners, state of fear or what ever the reason) that wont respond to the handler for anything short of a pinch collar is it really ready to be out in public? Let alone at a club of other dogs? Is this not setting up for 2 things 1. The dog may end up in a situation where it or someone else's dog is injured and 2, you may undo part of your training by letting it be in a situation where it can rehearse the exact behavior you are trying to address. Would it not be better to work on focus and response in a controlled and less public environment until the dog is ready and in the right place mentally to have positive outcomes???? I remember how long our last rescue took (F BC 10 months little socialization and VERY reactive to dogs), I don't think she began to focus full on me for 6 months (after much work and small group classes), took 10 months before we were in a place where she could work comfortably off leash in a group and is just now (almost 2 years on) ready to compete around other dogs off leash. But that's just my experience... But what if the dog is so out of control it won't take rewards from the handler? The handler has to be able to have some control over the dog before any learning can take place.

IMO (for what its worth and that is not much) given this dog has already had a bad start in life and is probably having nervous reactions to different situations would not making every new experience as positive as possible be the way to go? Would the dog not respond faster and associate new dogs and people with good if it was rewarded (what ever works food, play, tuggie etc) rather than given a pain stimulus? As I said just my opinion

They are quite legal (in a 'it doesn't say you cant' way) in QLD but then again so is debarking and shock collars.

I have a big bag of cable ties in my shed I am happy to donate when they find out who did it. Seems only fair they should also be prevented from breeding, would not want their genes polluting the pool any longer!!

Gee thanks just when it looked like we had the credit card under control after christmas now this!!! Well there goes the limit again.. Hmmm a new macro lens thats what we need!! Oh and a speedlite

So far we have watched the flyball segment (which we accidently taped) 23 times!!!! Wherezaball and my 2yo are in the lounge room Going....Where’s Doopie????? There he is!!!!! Yay Doooopieeeee!!!! Very cute Must say I feel sorry for the 2 other teams that didnt get coverage!! Was there and I know how much ther other guys put in!!! Well done everyone!! Where's Doopie???????? There he is !!!! Yay Doooooopppppieeeeeeeee!

Oh yes he will be. He gets to run Cooper and I run the green dog. Not going to let him stuff up the new dog!! Ohh goodie a season running Cooper . I don’t want to sound ungrateful, it is a dream come true but that is going to be like learning to drive in a formula 1 race car (less than 4 seconds to work out when to release, release, think wow look at that, get out of the way, find the tuggie, and catch the dog) if I get it wrong I am gunna get hurt (and it won’t be the dog that hurts me) please be gentle ;) !!

So let me work this out ..... 2 Dogs in Kennelling for 2 weeks, Two return flights to London (+ accommodation ok I know why 2??) 2 dogs flown overseas (add Quarantine fees and kennelling) hmmm best you make the most of this years I think!! Or find a very friendly sponsor!!!

All good except it is not an American Breed the Bull Arab is as far as I know (and I have a few of them) Australian in history!! Either way they are fantastic lounge lizards!! Good with kids!! Great in the ute and definately not Dangerous unless mishandled as puppies!!

Strictly a Devon, Cheese, or Raw chicken bloke!! If it got to Sardines and Tom Sauce think I would give it up n go train my horse!!

Hey guys give wherezaball (sp??)a pm. I know she has a great turning board (I have stood behind it a few times) I am sure she would be more than happy to give u the plans n maybe as few tips on it...

Hay I may be a little confused here. Surely the Flying Red Rat, as a commercial enterprise are entitled to make decisions about what cargo they will and wont process? If they make a business decision to for example "Not fly red and yellow cases" then that is up to them surely. In a world of competition and choice there are plenty of airlines out there that fly from the States to Aus so perhaps check with one of them. I know United are very flexible in this regard....