pgm

If you prefer other methods then you should use them. People should use methods that they are comfortable with, I have never said otherwise. But when people call the methods I use cruel and barbaric I find myself irresistably drawn to defend those methods. I mean if I called you a candyass because you used a clicker wouldn't you object? Koehler is not cruel and abusive, though you can certainly make him appear to be so by quoting him out of context. Such misrepresentation is found all over the internet. I object to the misrepresentation that defines Koehler as 'force extremist' or a 'punishment based method'. And I object to people suggesting that people like me have a closed mind to newer so-called positive methods. I use all four quadrants of operant conditioning, unlike those who accuse me of closedmindedness who use only two. It's very simple, I use what works - which as it happens is predominantly positive reinforcement. I don't like being lectured to use positive reinforcement as if I don't use it or don't know what is. Any method that has any hope of success uses positive reinforcement. The only difference is that some of us also use the other three quadrants when and where necessary.

For any reason? Not even to prevent the dog from being put to sleep? Your quite right though - we do have a fundamental difference. I wish you would maybe just try some positive training methods. I mean positive not negative re enforcement. This makes me laugh Rusky, it really does. Where on earth do you get the idea that I don't use positive reinforcement? Certainly not from Koehler - but then you would have to read the book....

What, you think that suspending a dog in midair in normal training procedure? As I said, maybe you shouldn't be training - or else, you should learn to read. I have never said there wasn't. Besides, my only concern is getting results - results meaning a confident, happy, well behaved, obedient dog. All the rest is just the petty insecurities of humans...

Certainly, I have just taken a ten week online course from a very experienced American trainer on how to incorporate the ecollar with Koehler. It's brilliant.

Such a dog that would do this has major issues of one sort or another. Koehler does not attempt to place the dog into a drop until the third week - for good reason. Most of these issues will have already been solved by that time. hOWEVER TO LET THE BITING DOG RECOVER HIS FOOTING WHILE HE STILL HAD THE STRENGTH TO RENEW THE ATTACK WOULD BE CRUELTY. no mention in the world as to why the dog might be aggressive to human handler

You know I find it strange. When people talk about using halti's and complain that their dog hates it, the advice is always to keep using it and the dog will eventually accept it and be comfortable. and to get the nervous dog upset by placing it in a position where it was not comfortable? (and possibly risk being bitten if the dog is fear aggressive, which luckily mine is not)

That's an easy one. Dick Koehler, Bill's son, use to own and train Italian Greyhounds if I remember correctly. Sounds like the perfect dog for Koehler. Keep moving. Koehler would insist on placing your dog into position precisely for the reasons you mention. Luring the dog into position may work to teach the sit, but it will not overcome her nervousness or skittshness. Placing her would solve two problems at once.

Then the problem is people not knowing what they are doing, not the method. It is the same with any method, if you don't know what you are doing then problems will occur. Not possible if you are following the method.

Well, one thing is for certain, I won't be taking my dog anywhere near that vet. Do you know that in Australia there are approx 500,000 children on anti-depressents and amphetamines for what are essentially behavioral problems? Behaviorists are probably the worse thing that ever happened to children - no doubt they will prove to be the worse thing to happen to dogs as well given time.

Haven: if I can make one or two comments. Changing direction is probably more effective for the reason that it disassociates the correction from the handler. Working on a fifteen foot lead intially is also better as it further disassociates the correction with the handler and allows for even the clumsy handler to make good corrections (eg, it removes the necessity for good timing that only professionals really possess). Working with a check chain also improves the learning as the quick check and release of the collar gives the dog more information than a standard collar would. Working for a full week without any communication between handler and dog also dramatically improves the dogs attention. The dog will literally take up and KEEP the position of heel of their own accord. The technique of changing direction has essentially come from Koehler, but is often not as effective for every dog because of the alterations made to his method. A good trainer, with good timing and the ability to read the dog could probably work the dog on a six foot lead and get excellent results. But on a fifteen foot lead, even the novice will get excellent results if they follow the method.

Use what works.

The most positive thing for both dog and handler is getting results. Getting results is what encourages people to go on further to more advanced work - a plus for both dog and handler. Most dogs don't live beyond 2-3 years in this country, I don't see the results of modern ideas the way others do. Ten weeks of Koehler will get you all of that and more. It was specifically written for the average dog owner. I just don't see the benefit, either to dog or handler, of spending 12 months of training without getting results when all that and much more can be gained in ten weeks. I am not trying to shove Koehler down people throats, people should use methods that they are comfortable with. But personally I think people should be concerned less with the question of HOW the dog is trained than with the question of WHETHER the dog is trained. I suspect the average life of dogs would increase if more people did.

I suppose that's why they take eighteen months to teach heel? In the Koehler method it takes 10 weeks to get a dog to heel offlead good enough to pass a novice exam. In my club, novice work is called advanced training and to get through all the levels required to reach it will take five months (assuming that you pass at each level, which very rare indeed, especially if you follow the advice of the instructors.)

Saltwood, the Koehler method is one method amongst others. I recommend it because that is what I used. Regardless of what method you use however, there is no way it should take years to teach a dog to walk without pulling. A couple of weeks at most - anymore, go to another trainer, find a different method. A good trainer can have a dog walking without pulling within five minutes. The Koehler method involves a fifteen foot lead and a check chain. Take the dog to the required area (your local park or something). With dog on lead and on your left start walking. Hold the remaining slack on the lead in your right hand, making sure the lead is not tight. For the first week there is no talking, no commands, no communication between dog and handler (one isn't supposed to even look at the dog). When the dog moves ahead, let out the remaining slack on lead and move swiftly in the other direction, wait till dog catches up, then move off again with purpose. Each time the dog goes in a different direction (or moves ahead of you) than the one you are going you move in the opposite. You will likely see a significant improvement in the first session of work (15mins). By the end of the week the dog will walking beside you and if you have followed the instructions correctly, it will be almost impossible for you to catch him out regardless of the distraction. Second week you move to the six foot leash. Please do not attempt this from the above description, there is more to it. Check out your local library for a copy. If not you can get a copy at Amazon.

Saltwood, I hope you are not paying money to this instructor! If an instuctor said that to me I would be running as fast as I could in the other direction! KateH, get a copy of the Koehler Method of Dog Training, follow the instructions for the first week of foundation. Your dog will be happily walking beside you within a week around distractions. If done correctly, your dog will never pull on the lead again for the rest of his life. While I am here I cannot help but comment at the irony of people saying how much more we know about dogs these days and how much our methods of training have advanced since the days of Koehler. Given the above comments of the instructor this is laughable. PS, this is not directed at you Saltwood.

Afton, why would you do this? Surely you realise that an ecollar causes less discomfort, with next to no chance of injurying the dog than does a long line? Why on earth would somebody who is prepared to use a long line on a dog in order to train be concerned about the dog's sensitivity to discomfort or pain? If you were so concerned, this would be a reason to investigate the ecollar - for it will cause less discomfort and less stress to the dog than will a long line.

Afton, the conclusion to this statement is without evidence. Its says the current flowing through the neck of a dog is about 30 milli-amps - it says absolutely nothing about what level the dog PERCEIVES. Humans perceive current at about 0.5 milli-amps - we know this because we can ASK a human what they feel. With a dog all you can do is observe their behavior and reactions. It absolutely does not follow from what is said above that dogs perceive in excess of 40 times that of a human. But you would know that if you had ever witnessed a dog being trained with these collars - the very idea is completely absurd, nobody but somebody without experience would even consider the absurdity of that statement. BTW not that this or anything else will change your a mind, but Mr Collins was a witness FOR Innotek against the RSPCA. Innotek won the settlement against the RSPCA for making false and misleading claims regarding electronic collars.

Yes it could be deceptive, but guess what? People who use these collars also, believe it or not, closely observe the behavior and reactions of their dog. If one can reasonably say that a dog enjoys being patted based on observation of their behavior and reactions, one can say with the same degree of reasonableness when and if a dog is experiencing pain. In both cases one is making these claims based on observation. Those who have not felt or observed these collars being used are basing their assumptions on ignorance. PS. Afton you haven't been asking questions, your mind is already made up, your comments reflect your ignorance.

Always the last gasp of the ignorant.....

Megan, everyone that uses these collars has tried it on themselves. One gets a little tired of people who have not had experience with these collars trying to suggest that people who use them would never put it on themselves. I try it on myself everyday before putting it on my dog to ensure that it is working. It is no big deal...

I have seen quite a few dogs look bored and disinterested too, but it is almost always combined with lagging. I agree that good eye contact can make the heeling look prettier. But I have seen pictures of dogs heeling (it's on the Leerburg site under competition heeling vidoes by Tom Rose I think) where the dogs are literally wrapped around the handlers leg. Personally I can't see how that can be marked better when the dogs are actually touching their handler's and contorted out of position. In the eye of the beholder I suppose...

tollersowned, it is a requirement for competition that your dog maintain the heel position at all times, something that a dog cannot do if it is not paying attention. There is no requirement on the other hand that the dog maintain eye contact the whole time. My dog watches my legs and feet and keeps the heel position that way. The only reason for teaching the dog to look up and maintain eye contact is that some people think that it looks better and that you get better scores. They may be right - but it is not a requirement and technically speaking you should not be penalized so long as your dog maintains the heel position.

I don't know in general, but I do know that in obedience trialling having the dog look up to the handler the whole time whilst heeling is supposed to be good thing. The requirement is not actually in the rules, but many trainers teach it because they think it looks better and will get you better scores. Don't know whether that's true - I have my doubts...

A similar method to Koehler? They are either following the method or they are not. Many trainers will tell you that they use Koehler, when in fact they are using a bastardized version. As for dogs coming up the leash, I know about half a dozen Koehler trainers who combined have trained or been involved in training over 100,000 dogs. You can count on a single hand how many dogs have come up the leash using these methods. Look, I don't care whether people use check chains or not, train your dog with whatever you feel comfortable with. But if you are going to use a check chain, you should use it correctly. The Koehler method is one of the best methods ever invented for the check chain, it was written for the average person who does not have access to trainers. Furthermore, if you use the method correctly, it does not matter whether your dog is sensitive or not - it simply works.