melzawelza

This sounds really interesting, Corvus. Could you expand a little?

Thanks for the comments guys! Very interesting and useful to file into my brain for future scenarios!! haha. It doesn't have to just be trainers though, if anyone has experience in similar type situations i'd love to hear what you would do to address it! SkySoaringMagpie, we coached her and discussed the signs to watch for, it was almost unfortunate that the dogs are fine at all other times, because we had no opportunity to actually SHOW her what it looked like! Hopefully she will be better equipped to recognise it now!

It is hard for her because she finds it very hard to read the signs that things are about to kick off. She commented that after the last incident she realised that the girl was hiding under the table cowering just before it happened. She couldn't understand it at the time or read the situation herself, however she realised after the fact that the little girl knew what was going on. I guess my questions are what strategies would you suggest in this particular situation to nip it in the bud and prevent it happening again. There is no guarantee that the next time the young'un wouldnt manage to kill or very severely injure the old boy, that is the level of these attacks when they happen.

Hi guys, Am currently working as an obedience trainer but beginning to get into the behavioural side of things. The following is an actual scenario which I attended with a senior staff member to learn and observe. I learnt a huge amount from him and was very appreciative of the techniques suggested, as were the clients. I thought i'd post the scenario on here to see if there are different ways other people would handle a situation like this as I know there's always a huge amount of techniques to deal with any given problem, and every trainer's opinion will vary. I always want to learn as many different techniques as possible to have in my toolbox so that if I ever came across something like this myself in the future I can draw on all these influences. Info: A couple own 3 small foxy X type dogs. Oldest is 14 and male, middle is 5 and female, youngest is 4 and male. All desexed, and has had them all since puppies. Have all lived together peacefully until this year. Youngest attacked the 14 year old and locked on requiring 12 stitches in January. This happened again around a month ago, prompting the clients to call. Dogs all run happily together 99% of the time. Play, socialise and get on really well. Old boy has very recently been vet checked and is fit as a fiddle and doing great for his age. All the dogs live outside, however old boy is let in every now and then to relax in his old age. Through asking a huge amount of questions it was established that the young dog is extremely bonded to one of the owners. He spends all his waking time trying to get to her and the entire time we were there he was sitting outside in a position where he could watch her constantly. The only time when this attack is a risk is when she first gets home from work or a long time away. He is extremely excited to see her. When she approaches the back door to go out and see them, old boy springs half a metre in the air repeatedly in anticipation and the young boy hangs at the back and periodically circles in front of the jumping old man ( between him and the door). The girl is never really an issue or a worry when it comes to the attacks (she just runs and hides). The attack occurs when they bump in to each other. Young boy locks on to his throat and really goes for the kill (has taken then over 5 minutes to get him off previously) It seems that only when all the circumstances are in place does this happen - i.e the little one is just SO over excited and then they bump and WHAM it happens, however really twice in 6 months isn't a huge amount considering the amount of times they would have been in that scenario during that time. After the first attack she employed a squeaky toy and always went outside squeaking it, and young'un would focus on that rather than old boy. However it was left outside and chewed up, and the second attack occurred without the squeaky to distract. She has fair obedience with them individually but when all three are running around and excited to see her it pretty much goes out the window ( can get the young'un to sit eventually but he breaks repeatedly, especially if the other dogs come close). The owner he fixates on is the main carer, feeds them walks them etc. However she is fairly soft on them and doesn't have a huge amount of 'presence' with the dogs. Her partner is the tougher one and the dogs won't put a foot out of line when she's the one with them. I got the feeling that she was bonded to them and loves them but not to the same degree as youngin's fixation. So - what sort of suggestions or techniques would you employ in this situation? Is it more of a 'management' type issue (seperation etc) or do you think it is something that can be overcome with training and behaiviour modification? It seems that old boy still has a while to go the sprightly little fella so they do want to put in the work so that they can live happily 100% of the time rather than just 99% ETA: other things that were mentioned that I thought MAY be significant - The youngin USED to be fed at that back door however hasn't been for quite a while, and doesn't seem to show food possessiveness in day to day life. There are also 2 other ways to enter the dogs area that the clients don't tend to use. Could changing the entrance be enough to change the behaviour? i lean towards not unless he is guarding the door a little due to being fed there. All signs point to the owner being the trigger 100% though.

I'm in Wollongong, couldn't have the cage inside but have a huge huge verandah.... I'm renting though so would need to get permission for short term but would be happy to help if I was to get it.

Definitely lovely to see, but the owner had no choice, guide dogs are allowed to go anywhere

LOL i'm terrible, i've sent a very similar letter to probably about ten different people now. This guy is the only one who has replied. So sad. He replied to that last letter with: "Hey There thanks for that the reason i am selling him at such high cost is people who really love him may pay but people who just want to abuse him wouldnt pay that prica i changed my mind about renting him but am willling to lower the price is your interested God bless George" sigh again. I replied again saying i'm sorry but I really cant take him. That I agree that selling him for a fair price is a good idea however this still won't guarantee him ending up in a puppy farm. The ONLY way to guarantee this is by desexing him. I also sent him the link to www.wheredopuppiescomefrom.com Haven't heard back though, but at least he changed his mind about taking a pup back. I guess that's a small win.

Great outcome Charlotte. You're an angel!! I shouldn't spend time on Gumtree, It upsets me too much. An ad I just came across " hi i am selling my much loved dog his name is max and he is 6 years old great dog very playful great family dog amazing aroung kids 2 options you can buy him for 450.00 or if your a breeder you can pay $200 plus a pup when he breeds papers and food provided SE RIOUS CALLERS ONLY" So they have to get rid of the dog but they want one of his pups.... ETA: I emailed him asking why he wanted one of the pups if he was having to rehome his boy, and he replied: "hey there i dont really know lol im moving around Australia George" Sigh. So I replied with this: "Hi George, Lucky you, travelling will be great! Can I suggest that maybe it isn't the best idea to take on another pup when you're having to rehome your boy already? I actually work in the dog industry as a trainer so am quite involved with dogs, and can I maybe suggest that you get him desexed before rehoming and then add what it cost you onto the price of him? There are a lot of people around that run large breeding facilities, keeping the dogs in bad conditions and breeding them as often as possible to make money. If you rehome him undesexed you run the risk of him falling into the hands of someone who would just use him to pump out litters without looking after him properly or giving him any attention or exercise. I'm sure you wouldn't want that for your boy, so I wanted to make sure you knew that these sorts of people are around. Lots of people are looking for desexed dogs and it will be a great selling point that he is already done and they don't have to worry about it. Hope you don't think i'm overstepping my boundaries, but wanted to just let you know Mel"

I'm not throwing the 'you're guilty because you eat meat' card at all. I don't push vegetarianism on people, I only made the choice quite recently after I delved into the factory farming industry myself. I do wish everyone would eat a little LESS meat so we weren't forced to factory farm to get the amounts needed but that's a whole different topic for discussion and again is a 100% personal choice. It has nothing to do with being vegetarian, I would and do happily eat meat if I know it's sourced from a family farm where the animals are treated humanely. The OP told me that there was absolutely no comparison whatsoever between farmed animals here in Aus and the way farmed dogs are treated in China. I replied to that advising her to look into it because it absolutely IS just as bad. It is horrendous and disgusting the way dogs are treated in china when being raised for food, however the distinct feel of the OP was that is was evil and wrong and inhumane to eat dogs FULL STOP. I disagree. Although I personally wouldn't eat a dog who am I to say it isn't ok but it's fine to eat any other animal? People from India hold cows sacred and find it horrifying that we eat them. It's a cultural difference and they have every right to eat dogs if they wish. The OP is so unbelievably outraged, yelling from the rooftops and wants to crucify some radio hosts because they made a joke about eating dogs. Yes it's shocking what is done to them but the radio hosts were not making a joke about the cruelty, only about eating the animal. For all we know they knew nothing about the cruelty in the dog meat trade!! I personally find it MORE horrifying that a westernised culture that is more developed and has much stronger animal welfare laws than China is carrying out equally terrible practices on our soil, and wonder why that isn't worth starting a rabid yelling thread about? I EXPECT it from china, I don't expect it from the first world.

That is utter nonsense. Don't even begin comparing the way our animals end up on our plate to the way that animals end up on the Chinaman's plate! There is no comparison. We do NOT set out to INTENTIONALLY cause agonising pain due to unfounded beliefs. We do NOT skin animals whilst still alive. Make all the excuses you want but in the end it is just a load of baloney. Actually, it ISN'T utter nonsense. I suggest you delve into the practices of factory farming, which is where almost all of our meat comes from. We DO keep our meat animals in absolutely abhorrent conditions. They are living in their own shit, with no room to move, broken limbs, skin worn down to the bone, killing each other because they are too close. The basic business model for factory farming is to keep the animals as close to death as possible without killing them. I think if you actually looked into it you would be just as outraged as you are right now about dogs in China. The chinese torture their meat animals because they believe it makes the meat taste better, we do it so that people can eat huge amounts of meat at dirt cheap prices. Yup, and this is only a tiny proportion of the extreme cruelty of factory farming. This isnt to say that torturing dogs to make the meat taste better isn't wrong. Of COURSE it's wrong. But our country is just as bad, but I guess because it's not dogs it's fine.

Do people really think that what those dogs go through is worse than what our factory farmed animals go through in this very country??? Both cases are despicable but everyone should understand that the animal on their plate went through immense sickness, pain, suffering and torture before it got there.

Hi As a groomer and a breeder that has seen many different litters from different breeders. I have seen different variations to the rottweiler coat all of which are a breed fault but does not mean they are not a pure Rottweiler. Quite often when this happens only 1 or 2 pups are effected in the litter and are pet homed. I have seen the obvious Fluffy's with the long thick coat, Rotts with a short body coat but has feathering on the legs and ears etc, Rotts with a very course coat which looks like a wire coat, some look like a wooly mammoth and sometimes they just have a beard (Like a goaty) or a slightly fluffier face and sometime different combos of the mentioned pop up. I have seen fluffy looking puppies have a completely normal Rottweiler adult coat and I have also seen a puppy with a short looking puppy coat end up with fluffy ears. Remembering a Rottweiler isn't supposed to have an overly short, soft coat either, it shouldn't be short like a dobe. Correct coat should have undercoat and it should be a little coarse to touch, undercoat can be hard to see when they live in a very hot climate. Undercoat can be grey,tan or black but shouldn't show through the coat. The long coated rotts I have seen have still made wonderful companions and were still Rottweiler through and through, of course if the pup was purchased with main registered papers (In the case of a normal looking pup that ended up long coated etc) the breeder should either take the puppy back and full refund or if the purchaser wanted to keep the puppy the breeder should transfer to limited register and refund the difference between a limited and main registered purchase price or what ever is a suitable agreement to both parties. Some people believe that when using certain breeds of dogs originally to create a breed, or adding a breed to get a desired trait, that those genetics will always have a possibility to pop up but by only breeding with stock that don't have those traits makes the occurence less common. Selective breeding. I'm not sure if I'm explaining what I mean here. Lots of traditional short coated breeds occassionally have a fluffy in a litter, I'm pretty sure it happens in the mastiffs as well. Having said that I still wouldn't say it is a common occurence only that it does happen, probably in my opinion, much less common than a puppy being born with a white marking on its chest or an incorrect bite which are also breed faults but still doesn't mean that they must be a cross. I guess there would be many different opinions on the above but registered breeders breed to the country of origin standard which means a long coated Rottweiler is a disqualifying fault but in my opinion doesn't mean they don't make great companions, as Clyde has shown, and I would rather see them go to loving pet homes then culled. Cheers Thanks for this great post! He first came to board with us when he was around 6 months old and as such was rather gangly and long-legged along with the obvious massive 'beard' and wiry featherings. He very much looked like a cross at that age, but the poor bugger has been boarding with us for quite a while and now that he has gotten a fair bit older and matured he has that typical rotty 'type' body and is now looking like you have described. Pure rottie but with a coat variation. I think he's stunning

Cool, thanks for that Erny. There's a dog i'm currently training that loses interest in treats very quickly, so I tried the GSP method for the down with him and it worked quite well. Although he clearly doesn't enjoy being placed, he LOVES the release after and we have a big cuddle. That was one dog where I found it worked ok, and you're right, it's about the individual dog. I haven't got to a point with him yet where he can do it on his own yet. I'm kind of just feeling my way as I don't know when I should try saying the word without guiding him. If i'm not really quick he locks up so I don't want to say it and wait, only for him to have time to lock up and struggle. It's at this point where i start to think 'Luring is just so much EASIER!!', but that may just be my inexperience in the technique. they might not pick it up quicker but they will remember it for much much longer. it tends to stay with them if they learn by doing Very interesting!!

Good to see i'm not the only one that prefers it! Pretty much everything you said, Rommi & Lewis, is the way I feel about luring and shaping. It was for this reason I was a little perplexed when I was told that the dog learns the command faster with the guiding. I always thought that if they were using their brains and figuring it out themselves they would pick it up much quicker?

Hi guys, Hoping for an interesting discussion on the advantages of using luring vs the guide show place method in basic obedience. I've always used luring (not strict luring always though, if the dog was having trouble understanding I would gently help out, i.e gently put pressure on their lower back while luring with the treat for a sit) to teach basic obedience at work and recently at the NDTF block 1 training I learnt the guide, show, place method. I think I definitely prefer luring as a first port of call with most dogs, especially for the down. I asked a few instructors why they prefer the guide, show, place and some of the reasons I got was that the dog learns faster and is more used to you handling it. I'd love to hear people from both sides discuss why they prefer one over the other, and whether they agree with the above statements through their experience. I'm the kind of person that wants to learn every single technique then choose what works for me. Although I prefer luring I was glad to learn the correct way to place a dog into position and would have no problems using the technique for dogs that aren't food motivated. One thing I have found trialling the guiding over the last week or so is that many dogs get incredibly stressed when being placed into the down, and some larger dogs are just too strong for me and lock up completely, even if I move very quickly with all my force. Of course little puppies would be much different, i mostly deal with older dogs with no obedience that have gotten a little unruly. So, what do you tend to use when training dogs? Why do you find that technique is preferable? Would you ALWAYS use that technique no matter what or would you move to the other if you think it would work better for the dog?

You corrected the dog when in position...........why??? I agree, why would you correct the dog when it is next to you?? of course she's going to walk far out, you'd taught her to do that!! You're supposed to do the opposite, correct when she's NOT next to you (Assuming the dog had already been taught 'heel'), so that then being next to you is the area she wants to hang out in.

LOL sorry Erny I was in the first block, short blonde hair and I let you know that the 'd ring' on the gentle leaders are much smaller now.

I just sent an email through to all the members listed in the attachment. I used your template Erny, and attached the goodfordogs paper, however I also added my own thoughts too. Although i don't live in Vic this is too important to not get involved in. (Also Erny.... have just realised who you are after receiving the email from the NDTF.... loved the headcollar workshop last week )

Oh man this is pretty much my dream job. Pity i'm in NSW :p

hey Jackie They'd definitely supplied an email because it worked when I put my mobile number in the 'message' section like it kept asking me to!!! So it just sent them my mobile number, so then I tried again with the message but no, it wouldnt work! They actually called me last night and I missed it, so they emailed my normal email anyway, and I replied. Hopefully they listen!

Can anyone confirm if there's such a thing as a wire-haired rottweiler?? another rottweiler forum suggests there is such a thing, although I havent seen any pics to compare to the boy at work. He essentially looks like a rottie with a beard and wirey hair through his legs. We all thought he was a cross and mentioned it to the owner and she wasnt happy, had the bitza test done which came back as pure rottie (but we all know how accurate those tests are!) and went back to the breeder all angry. She was happy once she got the bitza test though and the breeder said they have lots of them in their lines? I thought it all sounded very suspicious until i googled and saw people describing dogs that look like this boy.

I send an email...from Martha Jones I don't have their email address though, it doesn't seem to be listed, only their phone numbers! unless i'm overlookng it? where is it usually located?

I'm trying to reply to an ad on Gumtree from someone rehoming their undesexed lab girl saying she could be bred. I'm trying to send through a message telling them about puppy farms and backyard breeders and the best thing to do for her would be to desex and add the cost to the asking price. Problem is every time I try to send it it tells me I have to put my mobile number in the 'message' box of the email part on the right. i tried a thousand times so finally did put my mobile number and that was the only time it worked!! So the people have got a message with just my mobile number in it and nothing else. Great. Can anyone shed some light on how to get around this so I can actually send them TEXT? I registered and everything but it didn't make a difference.

Oh poor magnus and all the other babies. Suh a horrible, horrible tragedy. I am so sorry, Jed. You faught so hard for them and they know it. Run free bubbas.

I don't know what to say.... I haven't posted a lot but i read every day and Jed is such a wonderful wealth of knowledge and wisdom. I can't believe someone so wonderful has had this happen to them. Run free babies and stay strong Jed, we need you back.