melzawelza

Where I live there are heaps of dogs in front yards who carry on very aggressively. I don't report them, but I would hate it if my dog carried on like that and disturbed the peace of the neighbourhood. I would be embarrassed to be such a pain to the people who live around me. Exactly re: Brisbane Council's bylaws. Most Councils (except NSW) will have something similar. Would you report them if the fencing they were behind was crappy? I think that's the distinction we're trying to make. I'd never report a dog going bananas behind adequate fencing. That's what dogs do.

That's cute as :laugh:

I disagree that most methods are effective if applied skilfully. Crank & yank on a whippet probably isn't going to be successful (shutting down the dog, lots of fall out etc), whereas it might on a Rotty (generalising). Likewise a 'positive only' approach may not work (and by work I'm talking about fixing the issue to an acceptable level within an acceptable timeframe) for a high drive, dog aggro Rotty and may for the placid Whippet (again, generalising), even when being used effectively. Individual dogs respond to individual techniques, and that's why many of us feel a good balanced trainer is always preferable.

All those that feel that just because a fence holds back the viscous beast this time, means that it is adequately contained, I am afraid that you are wrong, you and I might not have the ability, but there are some on this forum that despite not being structural engineers or having any other link to the building, fencing or construction industry, can tell at a glance whilst hurrying past with their dog, that a fence/method of containment is "not adequate" Maybe if the councils weren't busy with all these "potential" dangerous dogs, based on no more evidence than someones "opinion" they could get on with dealing with actual problems? Maybe people should try and sort out their own insecurities and fears before appointing themselves judge and jury on the rest of society should they not conform to their views of what is adequate or acceptable? IF THE ANIMAL DID NOT GET OUT, THEN THE CONTAINMENT WAS ADEQUATE! Just because something frightens YOU does not make it unsafe or dangerous. If it did then every theme park the world over would be closed overnight. I find it both hilarious and perplexing that the person that has been screaming constantly in multiple threads in the last few days that owners of large, powerful breeds must take extra safety precautions to ensure their dogs are never placed in a position where they are able to injure another dog or person, is now making comments like these. In the two scenarios I have described, do you feel that the containment of the dog was adequate? Both situations are true scenarios: 1. Large 50+kg (actual 50+ this time, not mythical) powerful breed dog behind chicken wire that is actually bending the wire while it is lunging and going off it's tree. Dog is clearly physically trying to get through the fence as opposed to just barking at it (and btw same dog chased down mine and attacked completely unprovoked a few months later while no where near it's property). And before you say 'but it didn't get through), the dog's stimulus was my dog, so by me bolting as fast as I can I removed the stimulus and the dog stopped trying to get through. If I'd been there for a while there's every chance it would have. 2. Large ~35-40kg powerful breed kept in an unfenced yard. The yard is raised approx 1.5 metres off the ground - dog can easily jump down but hasn't yet (Still young, not reached social maturity yet). Goes bananas at anyone going past. It at or above head height for people walking past. I'll also link you to NSW Local Gov't Act Section 124 (7): source This can absolutely be used in the case of 2 (and I did use it, and they now have an adequate fence), and in the case of number 1, the individual Council would decide what constitutes 'adequate'. I would say the fence is not adequate and place the order if the owner did not modify it willingly (Not my case, but they did do so willingly). ETA: I'll also add that in states other than NSW where individual Councils can introduce bylaws, most will have bylaws clearly stating what is considered 'adequate' fencing for the size of dog it is containing and will take action if it does not meet that critera, regardless of whether the dog has escaped.

double post

There are times when a dog can be considered inadequately contained regardless of whether it has escaped or not. The one I described of a large 50kg+ dog being held back by chicken wire that it was physically pushing over is one; another was a dog kept in a front hard with NO fence at all, but raised a meter off the ground. Just because the dog hasn't jumped down YET doesn't mean it is adequately contained. In some cases the council will not be able to do anything, but reporting it is still necessary in case the dog DOES escape in the future. Then there is a record and history of the fact. I don't think anyone here is suggesting anyone report a dog that is well contained and very, very unlikely to escape.

There is zero doubt in my mind that if it had got out that it would have bitten the dogs. It has been the only dog that has bothered me. The rest have all been noise. I do know what you mean, when you're experienced in dog behaviour and body language you can see the difference. A few months prior to my dog being attacked the other week, I reported a large powerful dog that was kept behind nothing but star pickets and dog mesh. It was going off it's tree at my dog when I walked her past and it was much, much more than just a 'barking at the fence' type response. I, like you had no doubt that the dog would defend it's territory should it get free (and it was trying to). I was so certain that I actually ran as fast as I could to get a head start on the dog as it was starting to push hard on the fence and I thought it might get through. Cue a few weeks ago when the same dog broke free of it's owner up at the shops and crossed the busy road to come and attack my dog. I knew it months earlier and it was only confirmed for me that day, that that dog was not just barking, it was dog aggro and would attack if it escaped. That said, if the dog was adequately contained I never would have reported it.

I know some trainers like to use food at least in the beginning because it helps the trainer to guage the stress level of the dogs in a group situation. If the dogs isn't eating that's an immediate red flag that they need to spend more time with that dog & handler to get the comfort level up/move further away/whatever -- FWIW I think you get good at the method you practice. And there are bad trainers all over the spectrum of methods. I'd rather get in a trainer that is specialised and well-versed in the method of training that the kelps already have a basis in, than a 'jack of all trades' who may be able to use a prong but that is of no use to me because I'm not going to use one. I'm quite happy to "piss around with a positive trainer" with my reactive dog because I know that the fallout for correcting him for displaying fear is going to to be worse and harder to resolve than just treating the problem at the source to start with. But the point is that a good balanced trainer would recognise if corrections were going to cause too much fallout for your dog and wouldn't use them. That's why it's balanced - they use the best tools and techniques for the individual dog rather than just using a one size fits all for all dogs.

The UK has terrible dog legislation so I'm not surprised. Hopefully they'll take heed of this and look into why there are so many attacks and what models around the world have been proven to reduce them.

Bingo.

Yep, usually done to take the drive away from handler aggressive dogs and often dogs most suitable for apprehension of offenders can be handler aggressive when the have a low threshhold to fight. Never thought I'd ever say it but I agree 100% with M-sass.

Was it an off-lead area? yes it was in the area where dogs were allowed off , later because of non poop picking people it was made non dog , but back then it was allowed she was just a cranky dog hating person obv Yeah in that regard then she was being ridiculous!

Was it an off-lead area?

*headdesk* x1000 I'm really giving up on replying to you as you're just taking the thread in circles. An absolute waste of my time and energy. My thoughts are with this family and their dog.

I think you will find that the very first post raised the BSL issue (breed) and once again, this was an horrific attack by a larger breed dog on a small one, so it was quite literally big dogs Vs little dog, and once again, little dog lost. So the posts are hardly "off topic" are they? The original post was turned in to a party political broadcast, so what exactly were people expected to write????? My point was simply that every one of these threads turns into the same issues... If people want to start breed bashing (or dog size bashing) thread, by all means do so.. This isn't about that.. It is about a poor woman who has lost her dog under horrific circumstances... Just my opinion, but it would be nice to see, just once, a thread where people come and leave their condolences without turning it into a sledging match between breeds/sizes.. I don't disagree, but some people cannot miss an opportunity to push their personal agenda, maybe a good start would be if the thread had not been titled "Dog Attack Caught On Camera, How's that BSL working for you Victoria?" Doesn't look to me like the OP was aiming for a thread where people could leave their condolences. You really can't help yourself can you? I can title the thread whatever I would like to thanks, seeing as I started it. My comment on BSL was entirely relevant to the thread, as it genuinely upsets me that these attacks continue to happen while governments ignore proven science driven animal management techniques that drastically reduce dog attacks on people and other dogs. This poor woman lost her dog. That is completely unacceptable and rather than blame the dogs breed or size and go on and on constantly about the size/power of the dog I think it's very important to recognise that more pro-active (rather than simply reactionary) animal management techniques, education programmes and incentives are needed because these attacks continue to happen time and time again. There is a model that works. The fact that our Government ignore it in favour of models that are proven not to work is criminal. Who said you couldn't call it what you like? I was answering staffyluv who asked "My point was simply that every one of these threads turns into the same issues... If people want to start breed bashing (or dog size bashing) thread, by all means do so.. This isn't about that.. It is about a poor woman who has lost her dog under horrific circumstances... Just my opinion, but it would be nice to see, just once, a thread where people come and leave their condolences without turning it into a sledging match between breeds/sizes.." I just pointed out that, from the original title, I would have thought it obvious that the thread was not intended to be about the woman or dog, as you rightly pointed out, you started the thread and hence you chose that it would be focused on BSL rather than the plight of the victims, that was your choice to make and obviously you felt that making your point about BSL took priority. You would have also noticed then that my post began with condolences to the victim and an expression of disgust at what had happened, and that I've mentioned that a few times throughout the thread now. It's become very clear to me that you read what you want to read. And he wouldn't be the only one would he? Calling Plan B - I'm posting .... :laugh: Soooooooooooo nasty, every one. What a valuable contribution to the thread, thank you.

I think you will find that the very first post raised the BSL issue (breed) and once again, this was an horrific attack by a larger breed dog on a small one, so it was quite literally big dogs Vs little dog, and once again, little dog lost. So the posts are hardly "off topic" are they? The original post was turned in to a party political broadcast, so what exactly were people expected to write????? My point was simply that every one of these threads turns into the same issues... If people want to start breed bashing (or dog size bashing) thread, by all means do so.. This isn't about that.. It is about a poor woman who has lost her dog under horrific circumstances... Just my opinion, but it would be nice to see, just once, a thread where people come and leave their condolences without turning it into a sledging match between breeds/sizes.. I don't disagree, but some people cannot miss an opportunity to push their personal agenda, maybe a good start would be if the thread had not been titled "Dog Attack Caught On Camera, How's that BSL working for you Victoria?" Doesn't look to me like the OP was aiming for a thread where people could leave their condolences. You really can't help yourself can you? I can title the thread whatever I would like to thanks, seeing as I started it. My comment on BSL was entirely relevant to the thread, as it genuinely upsets me that these attacks continue to happen while governments ignore proven science driven animal management techniques that drastically reduce dog attacks on people and other dogs. This poor woman lost her dog. That is completely unacceptable and rather than blame the dogs breed or size and go on and on constantly about the size/power of the dog I think it's very important to recognise that more pro-active (rather than simply reactionary) animal management techniques, education programmes and incentives are needed because these attacks continue to happen time and time again. There is a model that works. The fact that our Government ignore it in favour of models that are proven not to work is criminal. Who said you couldn't call it what you like? I was answering staffyluv who asked "My point was simply that every one of these threads turns into the same issues... If people want to start breed bashing (or dog size bashing) thread, by all means do so.. This isn't about that.. It is about a poor woman who has lost her dog under horrific circumstances... Just my opinion, but it would be nice to see, just once, a thread where people come and leave their condolences without turning it into a sledging match between breeds/sizes.." I just pointed out that, from the original title, I would have thought it obvious that the thread was not intended to be about the woman or dog, as you rightly pointed out, you started the thread and hence you chose that it would be focused on BSL rather than the plight of the victims, that was your choice to make and obviously you felt that making your point about BSL took priority. You would have also noticed then that my post began with condolences to the victim and an expression of disgust at what had happened, and that I've mentioned that a few times throughout the thread now. It's become very clear to me that you read what you want to read.

I think you will find that the very first post raised the BSL issue (breed) and once again, this was an horrific attack by a larger breed dog on a small one, so it was quite literally big dogs Vs little dog, and once again, little dog lost. So the posts are hardly "off topic" are they? The original post was turned in to a party political broadcast, so what exactly were people expected to write????? My point was simply that every one of these threads turns into the same issues... If people want to start breed bashing (or dog size bashing) thread, by all means do so.. This isn't about that.. It is about a poor woman who has lost her dog under horrific circumstances... Just my opinion, but it would be nice to see, just once, a thread where people come and leave their condolences without turning it into a sledging match between breeds/sizes.. I don't disagree, but some people cannot miss an opportunity to push their personal agenda, maybe a good start would be if the thread had not been titled "Dog Attack Caught On Camera, How's that BSL working for you Victoria?" Doesn't look to me like the OP was aiming for a thread where people could leave their condolences. You really can't help yourself can you? I can title the thread whatever I would like to thanks, seeing as I started it. My comment on BSL was entirely relevant to the thread, as it genuinely upsets me that these attacks continue to happen while governments ignore proven science driven animal management techniques that drastically reduce dog attacks on people and other dogs. This poor woman lost her dog. That is completely unacceptable and rather than blame the dogs breed or size and go on and on constantly about the size/power of the dog I think it's very important to recognise that more pro-active (rather than simply reactionary) animal management techniques, education programmes and incentives are needed because these attacks continue to happen time and time again. There is a model that works. The fact that our Government ignore it in favour of models that are proven not to work is criminal.

Thanks Melz, Cocoa is stunning - such a pretty, pretty colour. Just lovely. Jarrah's age was assessed by various people as so many different ages, from anywhere between 9 and 15 months. I kind of go with 12 months as an average of all the numbers that got bandied around at the time and because it makes it easy to give an approx age now - I just add on a year from the date I got her. XD But you're right I think, she probably was a little younger than a year old. It can be so hard to tell when they're in between adult and really little puppy! I was lucky that Cocoa was chipped so I know her birthdate.

Hehehe aww thanks Aussie!! She wins over everyone she meets - I just love her so much. Big goofball. You should like her facebook page if you haven't already if you can't get enough ;) http://www.facebook.com/cocoadadog

I'd suggest that most people who hate them have never seen one and certainly not experienced what one feels like. Very true, and I'll add that they don't *want* to learn about them. I have been attacked by people before because I support the use of prong collars if the situation is appropriate. I asked the person if they've ever seen one been used or been educated in their use and she replied 'No and I don't want to! They are cruel!'. Can't educate closed mindedness.

Wobbly your girl is so lovely. She looks quite puppy like in the pound shots- I think she would have been under 12 months when you got her for sure! Most recent of Cocoa at 21 months (previous photos quoted above) Her conformation is ridiculous but I still think she's gorgeous

Gorgeous, gorgeous photos!! Both the OP's and Ellz! OP that cat is so fantastic, how wonderful for the litter to be raised with her. Here's a couple of my girl with my cats :) Cocoa & Sid All of them together on the lounge (on top of me!) ETA: Sorry, photobucket seems to either make them teeny tiny or huge!

Yeah.. there are so many holes in this it's not even funny. As Aidan said, it's scaremongering and exaggeration. Brad from K9 Services International posted a few questions on this on their facebook page, highlighting the inaccuracies and inconsistencies throughout it. He wasn't rude or insulting. All his questions were deleted rather than answered, and when I questioned them as to why they had deleted his posts rather than just answering the questions my posts were deleted and I was banned from the page. They know it's all crap and they can't defend what they've written so they just ban anyone who might highlight how ridiculous it is.

Yes, and the big/small dog issue was raised because it was a big dog that attacked and killed a small one, Now, as the large dog in question was not on the BSL list and as far as the information that anyone has presented, was not identified as a previous dangerous dog, X breed, entire or unregistered how would scraping BSL of stopped the poor little dog losing her life? Who said repealing BSL would have prevented this particular attack? I didn't - that's you assuming. I said that BSL didn't PREVENT this attack from happening, which is what it designed and supposed to do. Proven models of animal management legislation like the Calgary Model may well have prevented this attack. In fact it's actually quite likely it would have seeing as their dog bites have quartered in 20 years (all without BSL). I notice that you've now changed your tact to 'all large breed owners should be more responsible' rather than just targeting the mythical 50kg Pit Bull owners as you were in the previous thread (still haven't seen your reference for that quote or you admitting you made it up). Now we agree. Anyone with a large breed (or powerful medium breed) dog has a higher level of responsibility because of the potential damage their dog can do. That does not absolve small dog owners from their responsibilities also. As Pit Bull type dogs are systematically wiped out in Victoria we will start seeing more and more attacks like this from GSD, Rottweilers, Mastiffs etc as the idiots go for a breed that's easier to own. I really hope that the Government is intelligent enough to figure that BSL doesn't work as opposed to adding more breeds to the list, but I don't have much confidence I can't imagine the horror that poor little dog's owner felt. That is exactly how the dog came at mine a few weeks ago and it was terrifying. I was very lucky I was in a very public place and the dog's lead was trailing as a passer-by was able to very quickly grab the dogs lead and prevent any real injury. "legislation like the Calgary Model may well have prevented this attack" Who's assuming now? "I notice that you've now changed your tact to 'all large breed owners should be more responsible'" and I notice that you have still not gone back and read through my posts to find out where I singled out APBT as you keep accusing me of, when you initially accused me of this in the other thread i asked you to show me where i singled out APBT and not large powerful breeds, bull breeds or type. It is you who is focusing on APBT not me, I spoke about the APBT's being bred for "gameness" but other than that I focused no more on them than any of the aforementioned. So again, a large breed dog has killed a small one. The large breed dog was not a BSL breed, it has not been released whether it was previously kept tethered, whether it is entire, registered, previously aggressive etc etc you know the list, you wheel it out in every BSL debate, so as none of these "FACTS" are known, why would you bring up BSL as you have zero evidence that the Calgary model would have stopped it either, regardless of that though, you saw your opportunity for a party political broadcast and took it, much like you accuse the media of doing every time there is an attack reported involving a "pitbull" or "pitbull type" Three words Pot, Kettle, Black! It is you who keeps spouting on about BSL, Calgary model, any dog can bite blah blah blah, and then fling mud at anyone who does not categorically and unequivocally agree with you. I have stated from the beginning that some dogs are much better equipped to cause major trauma and death than others and if I owned one of those dogs that represent a higher % of the dog attack fatalities list, I would be very worried, it is you that wants to make it about APBT's, BSL and propensity to bite So please, either dispute my statement "that some dogs are much better equipped to cause major trauma and death than others" (which I think you will find is very "on topic" in this thread) or leave it alone and don't try and twist it to suit your agenda. Then again maybe you're a bit to "game" to walk away? (assuming that my use of the "game" trait in this context fits with your definition, sure you will correct me if it is not) If you can't see the (very clear, very obvious) logic in my posts, then discussing with you further is a lost cause. You seem to have some sort of vendetta as you've just recently cropped up in these topics with lots of fury and rage and an inability to see otherwise. Has something recently happened to you to cause this? Your posts seem to have the emotional and hysterical feel of someone who has recently had a negative experience with a particular type of dog. You don't seem to understand what the Calgary model involves. It makes it very, very hard to be an irresponsible dog owner, and clearly this attack was caused by irresponsible dog ownership (loose dog), therefore there is every chance that something like the Calgary Model being in place may have prevented the attack. I agreed with you in my last post in this topic but you seem to only read what you want to read. I hope you, as a dog owner also are careful and responsible with your dog that is able to do much more damage than a small dog.

Yes, and the big/small dog issue was raised because it was a big dog that attacked and killed a small one, Now, as the large dog in question was not on the BSL list and as far as the information that anyone has presented, was not identified as a previous dangerous dog, X breed, entire or unregistered how would scraping BSL of stopped the poor little dog losing her life? Who said repealing BSL would have prevented this particular attack? I didn't - that's you assuming. I said that BSL didn't PREVENT this attack from happening, which is what it designed and supposed to do. Proven models of animal management legislation like the Calgary Model may well have prevented this attack. In fact it's actually quite likely it would have seeing as their dog bites have quartered in 20 years (all without BSL). I notice that you've now changed your tact to 'all large breed owners should be more responsible' rather than just targeting the mythical 50kg Pit Bull owners as you were in the previous thread (still haven't seen your reference for that quote or you admitting you made it up). Now we agree. Anyone with a large breed (or powerful medium breed) dog has a higher level of responsibility because of the potential damage their dog can do. That does not absolve small dog owners from their responsibilities also. As Pit Bull type dogs are systematically wiped out in Victoria we will start seeing more and more attacks like this from GSD, Rottweilers, Mastiffs etc as the idiots go for a breed that's easier to own. I really hope that the Government is intelligent enough to figure that BSL doesn't work as opposed to adding more breeds to the list, but I don't have much confidence I can't imagine the horror that poor little dog's owner felt. That is exactly how the dog came at mine a few weeks ago and it was terrifying. I was very lucky I was in a very public place and the dog's lead was trailing as a passer-by was able to very quickly grab the dogs lead and prevent any real injury.