melzawelza

Can you really be surprised though, Dogmad, when you rarely post a single post that isn't denigrating of bull breeds? I agree that your OP is more about ownership rather than the breeds itself but I knew when I opened the thread that within the first few lines I would see either the words Amstaff, Staffy or Pitbull and there they were, Of course. You seem to be forgetting that by saying 'bull breed' you are encorporating three distinct different breeds and all of their mixes into the one category. Add that the SBT and the Amstaff are both incredibly popular numbers-wise in this country then I'm not surprised that a lot of people have experienced 'issues' with them. There are enormous numbers of them in the country. What Plan B is trying to get across is that relative to the amount of 'bull breeds' that exist in this country, the 'attacks' are incredibly low. The amount of dogs of any breed that attack are minute, and that includes 'bull breeds'. I also might add that almost none of your comments about bull breeds are about them actually attacking anything. They are just you complaining about them being loose and you assuming that if you didn't high tail it out of there your dogs would be attacked. It is unacceptable for any dog of any breed to be roaming loose, but just because they are there doesn't mean your dogs would have ever been attacked. That is your bias. All the evidence on the topic disproves your strongly held belief that there is a 'major problem with bull breeds in this country'.

Absolutely, and you've done such a great job with her! She's a superstar!

Check out this page to see some of the horrific dogs American Bully breeders are churning out. Some of them make me want to cry, poor things. Freaky, Exotic Bullies

Definitely agree with breed-specific education... one of the big things I gathered from my time with BADRAP is how much time they spent working with 'Pit bull' type dog owners that may love their pets and mean well, but not know how best to provide for them. When they started 13 years ago they were in the position we are now - in that bully breed dogs and owners were ostracised, people were hiding their dogs away, and didn't have access to the resources that owners of other dogs did. This of course is a recipe for disaster. So they decided to get together pit-specific resources and information that they could give to those owners in a helpful and non-judgemental way. They've pretty much turned around the way Pit bull type dogs are looked at in the Oakland, California area now, 15 years later. They run Pit Ed classes every Sunday that I got to attend which was fantastic, and they only really take on dog-reactive dogs who's owners need help. Many many dog friendly, easy dog owners want to join the class but they tell them just to go do a general obedience class instead, as they're there for the dogs with more challenging behaviours. The thing is though, pretty much all 'breed-specific education' is mostly just 'dog specific' education. There is no behaviour that is unique to any breed of dog. It's all just dog behaviour. Some breeds can be more predisposed as a whole to show that behaviour but there is so much variation even within the breed. So while it's great to put together 'pit bull' type education, and target it at 'pit bull type' owners, it's really not going to be that different or unique to any other breed specific education resource. But it is needed in the climate we're at here in Aus at the moment, much like it was needed back then 13 years ago. Not because Pits are sooooo different from other dogs but simply because they and their owners are often not given the unconditional help or acceptance that others breeds may get, and in places like Victoria people may be hiding their dogs away from the world. Ugh, American Bullies. There are some nice ones out there but most are just bloated, badly bred health disasters. These dogs are NOT APBT even if the idiots breeding them like to say they are. A good percentage of American Bully breeders are just douchey and are breeding simply for 'huge heads' and 'tough looking' dogs. The collars are just a fashion statement to add to that.

You got one of the trickier ones and other Bully owners get what you mean, but I just like to sometimes highlight that there is a huge variation in temperament within even purebred breeds... when we add that we're talking about at least three purebred and their mixes when we say 'bull breed' or 'pit bull type' then there is even more variation. A huge amount of 'pit bull type' dogs don't require special treatment, special behaviourist visits and special fencing. They are easy dogs, easily owned by first time families. Others do, but I think that would be the same for most med-large breeds. If we generalise the behaviour of an entire type into being the same, then we kind of give merit to BSL, you know what I mean?

Done!

I think it's important to remember not to generalise whole 'types' of dogs, most who we would have absolutely no idea of their genetic heritage. SOME bull breed type dogs require management, careful socialisation, and have some dog reactivity. SOME bull breed type dogs are super easy, great with other dogs, never once even think about escaping and don't require much management at all. Even more are in the middle, and need the general type of management that any other dog would need. You could say the above sentences for most med-large breed dogs. When we're talking about what is overwhelmingly mixed or unknown origin bull breed types we've got to remember there is enormous variability in their behaviour, and we should be judging each dog as an individual. I am very involved in the rescue of bull breed type dogs from Sydney pounds. The dogs we see are typically the dogs that have not been carefully socialised, haven't had any training, are entire and have had pretty average/terrible owners. Yet the vast majority are quite dog social, and aren't any harder to handle or manage than any other med-large sized dog. Some are harder work, absolutely, but I think if I was involved in the rescue of any other med-large sized breed things would be much the same. If these dogs are the ones with the crappy owners and with no training or socialisation, and the vast majority are great dogs, then what of all the others that have great owners (the majority!)?

I am really glad that's on again! I am attending a Denise Fenzi seminar with Jarrah on July 13th, I have become interested in obedience lately (we got the perfect breed for obedience!) so sadly can't be at the rally, what a shame. Next one I will though! No worries- sounds fantastic!!

I will keep you in the loop with the stuff we've got planned. :) But don't underestimate what you've been doing - it makes a big difference. Also - come to the rally if you can! https://www.facebook.com/events/647192141964156/

Actually, we don't. The absolute majority of Bull Breed (remembering that this term encompasses AT LEAST three breeds and their mixes if you are being conservative about the term) are good dog owners, love their dogs, and their dogs NEVER cause an issue. "I am the Majority" The percentage of dogs that attack *of all breeds* is so incredibly small. It is minute. This INCLUDES Bull Breeds. You are infinitely more at risk getting in your car every day than living next to a dog. The hysteria perpetuated by the media and people like yourselves is unhelpful and certainly does nothing to prevent dog attacks. There are proven solutions to reducing dog attacks even further, and our Government currently ignores them. Those solutions have nothing to do with breed. Simple as that. We don't need restrict breeding, we don't need to ban breeds, we don't need to license breeders, we don't need to license owners. We simply need to follow the proven models of dog management, which focus on education and licensing first and foremost, and follows it up with strong enforcement of basic dog management legislation. It's so simple yet it seems to be so hard to grasp by Governments and individuals - even on a dog forum. The Calgary Model You didn't take the full scenario did you, you chose to focus in on a single piece that you could counter argue. The rest of what you posted had no real value, sorry. Regardless, I didn't feel the need to quote it all as my discussion about proven models of dog management addresses all of your 'issues'. Well if your all sorted then, why are you on here whinging about it? Oh that's right, because your "proven models of dog management" aren't in Australia? And by going on to forums and sitting in your ivory turret, firing arrogance and dismissive comments, as the holder of the all powerful knowledge to solve the worlds problems is helping get the Calgary model implemented how? I really don't understand what it is you are trying to argue here. You seem to just want to argue, without any real point or meaning. Yes, my issue is that it isn't implemented here. I don't want to be bitten by dogs. I don't want my dog to be bitten by dogs, and I care about community safety, so I find it incredibly frustrating that Australia persists with models that are proven not to work. I also find it incredibly frustrating when I see people on a dog forum making comments as ridiculous as yours and some others. You would think there would be a higher percentage of people who have done their research on this forum but it doesn't seem to be the case. You have no idea what I do in my spare time re: the BSL issue, so probably best to not make silly comments on that. I will tell you that two weeks ago I returned from a 3.5 week trip to the USA attending conferences and internships with the experts on the subject, to gather information and develop a path for progressing the advocacy work going on here in Australia. There's plenty more I have done and will continue to do so I think I have every right to make a post on a dog forum with my opinions on the subject. Even if I had done none of that, I still have every right to post.

Don't give up on it... we are making a dent. This is in relation to the USA but I guarantee you we will be where they are sooner rather than later: http://animalfarmfoundation.wordpress.com/2013/06/10/bsl-trends/ Plus, we need more sensible people arguing the sensible points about this sort of thing. ETA: I also very rarely experience any stigma when out walking. If I stand still with my dog up at the local shops for ten minutes I'll usually have at least 3 or 4 people stop to love her up (which she does gladly!) and she has the stereotypical red coat/red nose combo.

Actually, we don't. The absolute majority of Bull Breed (remembering that this term encompasses AT LEAST three breeds and their mixes if you are being conservative about the term) are good dog owners, love their dogs, and their dogs NEVER cause an issue. "I am the Majority" The percentage of dogs that attack *of all breeds* is so incredibly small. It is minute. This INCLUDES Bull Breeds. You are infinitely more at risk getting in your car every day than living next to a dog. The hysteria perpetuated by the media and people like yourselves is unhelpful and certainly does nothing to prevent dog attacks. There are proven solutions to reducing dog attacks even further, and our Government currently ignores them. Those solutions have nothing to do with breed. Simple as that. We don't need restrict breeding, we don't need to ban breeds, we don't need to license breeders, we don't need to license owners. We simply need to follow the proven models of dog management, which focus on education and licensing first and foremost, and follows it up with strong enforcement of basic dog management legislation. It's so simple yet it seems to be so hard to grasp by Governments and individuals - even on a dog forum. The Calgary Model You didn't take the full scenario did you, you chose to focus in on a single piece that you could counter argue. The rest of what you posted had no real value, sorry. Regardless, I didn't feel the need to quote it all as my discussion about proven models of dog management addresses all of your 'issues'.

Actually, we don't. The absolute majority of Bull Breed (remembering that this term encompasses AT LEAST three breeds and their mixes if you are being conservative about the term) are good dog owners, love their dogs, and their dogs NEVER cause an issue. "I am the Majority" The percentage of dogs that attack *of all breeds* is so incredibly small. It is minute. This INCLUDES Bull Breeds. You are infinitely more at risk getting in your car every day than living next to a dog. The hysteria perpetuated by the media and people like yourselves is unhelpful and certainly does nothing to prevent dog attacks. There are proven solutions to reducing dog attacks even further, and our Government currently ignores them. Those solutions have nothing to do with breed. Simple as that. We don't need restrict breeding, we don't need to ban breeds, we don't need to license breeders, we don't need to license owners. We simply need to follow the proven models of dog management, which focus on education and licensing first and foremost, and follows it up with strong enforcement of basic dog management legislation. It's so simple yet it seems to be so hard to grasp by Governments and individuals - even on a dog forum. The Calgary Model

Fila.

I'm not trying to put down either because I don't know who they are and what you've been through, but if you're really serious about helping her I would see someone at Sydney Animal Behaviour Service in Seaforth. They are extraordinarily expensive, but no one in NSW is better qualified to help you handle this than Kersti Seksal. If she or one of her co-workers can't help you find a solution that will improve your dog's emotional state when you have to leave her, I doubt anyone can. I know of many, many people that have had no joy with Kersti Seksel, who has done nothing but prescribe prozac and charge $700 a session. Same people have then engaged the services of a behaviourist with a more realistic and balanced view of training and behaviour and gotten results at a third of the price. So I'd dispute that Kersti is the best and that if she can't help you no one else can.

They definitely were, and Hugh Wirth still seems to be fundamentally, but he's been gagged by the powers that be thankfully. The RSPCA has been instrumental in the initial implementation of BSL, and have been disgustingly quiet in Victoria over the past 18 months, but I'm very glad to see them actually stepping up to the plate on this. Now all they need to do is refuse to euthanase dogs that have been seized purely on appearance.

DNA testing will say different... http://sheltermedicine.vetmed.ufl.edu/library/research-studies/current-studies/dog-breeds/dna-results/ Check out how many were way off the mark when the only identifier was a visual scan... T. I fail to see how it matters? They are not of uniform size, shape, colour or anything else, apart from the fact they are all dogs. I think the DNA tests are ridiculous btw, since pure bred breedings have not been in fashion for most breeds for more than a few hundred years, of course they will have a gazillion traces of breed xyz in them. What does that prove? And what does it prove in regards to the topic? What it proves is that one can't necassarily pick the dominant breed strains in a crossbred dog by visual inspection. T. Yep. The images on Pages 18 - 20 show this very clearly (the whole document is interesting if you have the time to read it). http://www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/uploaded_files/tinymce/The%20Relevance%20of%20Breed%20in%20Selecting%20a%20Companion%20Dog.pdf I also found this quite interesting: Swedish study found no link between modern breeds and their traditional work

Interesting: Swedish study found no link between modern breeds and their traditional work http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/uploaded_files/tinymce/Svartberg%20Swedish%20study_2013.pdf

I think some people forget that the percentage of dogs - of all breeds - that attack is very, very low. The percentage of dogs -of all breeds- that attack badly such as this one is even lower. Minuscule. The absolute vast majority of all dogs, including bull breeds, never bite or attack anyone or anything. While we should always be looking into the research for what is proven to make that number even smaller, we shouldn't get caught up in the myth that there is a 'dog bite epidemic' or that people are being mauled by dogs left right and centre. It simply isn't the case. Living with dogs is incredibly safe. Much safer than getting in a car every day.

Just in case Santo tries to deny that the media ignores severe attacks from other breeds and over-reports attacks by bull breeds: http://www.aspca.org/fight-animal-cruelty/advocacy-center/animal-laws-about-the-issues/pit-bull-bias-in-the-media.aspx

ha but I bet in 3/4 of cases it pins itself on a very similar kind of owner. Bingo. I couldn't generalize them by breed but I could certainly generalize them by irresponsible owner behavior.

The 2010/2011 stats from a quick caluculation is 1364 Bull breed attacks, nothing else comes close. Just back track in this section alone and count the reported attacks.......the majority are Bull breed variants of some discription. Is this the denial factor kicking in? Do you understand that in NSW we have to report attacks that don't even cause injury, and those are counted on the attack stats you are quoting? The vast majority of attacks I report, of all breeds, have none or very minor injury. This is an 'in the news' section. The media reports on bull breed attacks at a much higher rate than non bull breed, so I'd expect a lot of the discussions here to be bull breeds. That doesn't mean they're responsible for the majority of severe attacks. I've had absolutely horrific attacks by other breeds that the media have never picked up. Not denial, real world experience with the actual attacks that are happening every day, not just the ones the media decides to report on.

What evidence do you have that the majority of severe attacks are caused by bull breeds Santo? The NSW stats don't show that and anecdotally my experience as a Companion Animal Officer investigating such attacks does not back that up either. I couldn't pin my severe dog attacks on one breed or type of dog. There is no majority and the dogs involved are varied in size and original breed function.

The only state in Australia that has mandatory attack reporting is NSW.

If you have a "mean" dog then it is your responsibility to keep it under complete control. "Accidents happen" simply isn't good enough. Ahh sense. Thanks Haredown! Genetics absolutely have an influence. But don't confuse genetics with breed. This is to do with the individual dog and it's individual parents/grandparents. Each dog is an individual, even dogs within a purebred circle. When you then add dogs without pedigree papers who's history is unknown, 'breed' becomes even more of a silly construct when trying to predict behaviour, especially aggression.