melzawelza

It actually doesn't. The areas that have seen wonderful success with reducing dog attacks have never focused on this aspect of animal management. Improvement in breeding practices is often a nice by-product of models such as the Calgary Model, but it's never needed to be focused on.

as always - your posts on this topic are fantastic.

Are you being sarcastic? Mdevine is a tool, and has written this kind of drivel before. How is the government going to cope with "bull mastiff crosses" Ban all bull mastiffs, or ban all crosses? I would presume do exactly what Victoria did and put together an arbitrary 'standard' that is so broad and inclusive that almost any large purebred or mixed breed dog are caught up in it. Then spend $100,000 per dog trying to kill them. Sigh.

Miranda Devine is a tool on many topics, and this is yet another one. I shouldn't be surprised. If she truly cared about reducing dog attacks she would do the research in to what is PROVEN to do so and not spout such absolute rubbish.

The worst thing about this video is that when the owner initially uploaded it to youtube the description said 'They're only playing, he doesn't mean it. Look at the other videos of them together".

A bit more information on the situation here: News.com.au The child was getting an ice cream from the outdoor freezer unsupervised with the dog. Really, as time goes on, all the ingredients for this to happen are adding up. Dog that is typically chained, entire male, used for pigging, visiting child, unsupervised and now we're adding food in to the mix. I only wish we weren't ticking them off after the child's death, rather picking them up before and preventing it ever happening.

The ADBA and the UKC have kept pedigrees for the APBT since the late 1800s.

I agree I'd forgotten that dogs used to hunt large game are considered dangerous anyway. How is it the powers that be are forgetting their own legislation though? Obviously the owner is aware of this or he would not be emphasizing how this dog was "a family pet" when it clearly wasn't. I grew up with hunting dogs on chains, they were considered our pets as well. I don't believe that piggers cannot also be good family pets. My brother still has pigging dogs and children with no problems. My heart goes out to the the family. This is something no parent should have to go through, just so tragic I can't stop thinking about the horror that toddler went through, it's beyond words I guess I don't have any statistics to back up my opinion, but there seem to be an awful lot of fatal incidents with toddlers and working pig dogs in Australia. I would be very reluctant to have a working pig dog loose around children this young. I know that prey drive and human aggression are two very different things but in my experience, very young toddlers can often elicit a prey response from dogs, and not necessarily just pig dogs either. I would also be reluctant to let dog loose around a very young child like this if the dog was usually kept chained. Chained dogs also feature prominently in bite stats I have seen. Anyway, personally I don't keep my hunting dog, whom I also consider a pet, chained up out back (she only hunts rabbits and foxes btw) and if we ever end up having kids she will be crated inside. I think it's more about the types of owners IYKWIM. A lot of people who are attracted to piggers are rednecks. Poorer socio-economic areas and poor/minimal education. I chain my dogs when necessary. Oh I agree totally, and the man from the hunting association made it very clear that there are many hunters with piggers who do an exceptional job with their dogs and they never cause a problem. Chaining is a very very common factor in fatal dog attacks however Karen Delise's study into the topic shows that there are usually five or more common interacting factors that all contribute to the fatality. No one of those five key points on their own are necessarily the cause, rather it ends up being a 'perfect storm' of it all coming together at the right (wrong!) time, and causing the fatality to happen.

I agree I'd forgotten that dogs used to hunt large game are considered dangerous anyway. How is it the powers that be are forgetting their own legislation though? Obviously the owner is aware of this or he would not be emphasizing how this dog was "a family pet" when it clearly wasn't. I grew up with hunting dogs on chains, they were considered our pets as well. I don't believe that piggers cannot also be good family pets. My brother still has pigging dogs and children with no problems. My heart goes out to the the family. This is something no parent should have to go through, just so tragic I can't stop thinking about the horror that toddler went through, it's beyond words I guess I don't have any statistics to back up my opinion, but there seem to be an awful lot of fatal incidents with toddlers and working pig dogs in Australia. I would be very reluctant to have a working pig dog loose around children this young. I know that prey drive and human aggression are two very different things but in my experience, very young toddlers can often elicit a prey response from dogs, and not necessarily just pig dogs either. I don't have official stats for this as I'm going off what was said by a prior rep of the NSW State Government at the Australian Institute of Animal Management conference last year. In a discussion about BSL a man from some hunting association spoke up and said the 'elephant in the room' that no one was talking about was about pigging dogs that are inadequately kept and socialised by their brain dead owners. He was very passionate about this, and careful to point out that many hunters use dogs for pigging in a responsible way, but according to him there is a whole subculture that simply do not ensure that their dogs are well trained and socialised and pair that with the work they do - their dogs can be a real danger. The woman who was on the BSL panel that was working at the Gov at the time BSL was brought responded that the last 3 fatalities in NSW were by pigging dogs. I guess this one makes it four if her comment was correct.

Terrible, terrible... so heartbreaking. Been thinking about this a lot today. As more of the story comes out we start to see some of the landmarks of the key contributing factors to fatal dog attacks. That poor child and family. Ten minutes is an incredibly sustained attack. If it's true that the media is now calling this dog a Pit Bull then I don't know what to say. The dog weighs much more than double what an average APBT would weigh. I just hope there are now no knee-jerk legislative reactions from this.

If your husband has researched enough that he knows how to use it effectively as Negative Reinforcement (not Positive Punishment) on a low level he won't hurt the dogs :) It's a great, effective way to proof a rock solid recall, and won't harm the dog physically or psychologically. If he doesn't know how to use it then don't.

Agree totally with Nekhbet. The most ridiculous this is that e-collars are banned for use in the whole of NSW, so if someone wishes to snake proof their dog and are caught they will be done for animal cruelty. Absolutely ridiculous.

No worries :) I'd also be interested to hear an update on what actually is said at the meeting and any other history on the situation in Atherton.

They pit them against the other dogs to test instinct. They aren't stealing people's pets to do it. Like I said they have a surplus of their own dogs that are useless for the pit, plus their other fighters at their disposal. There's no point in taking the risk of being caught for theft and therefore exposing their entire disgusting operation (dogfighting is felony in the US and carries jail time) when there are many many dogs within their own and other fighters yards that can be used. Again, yes it happens occasionally, on a very small scale, from inexperienced idiots that just want to abuse animals and pretend that they are 'dog men', but it's not widespread, typical or commonly done with stolen dogs from people's backyards. We have to remember that organised dog fighting isn't just letting two dogs go at it for a short while. The dog has to be willing to cross the line and engage with the other dog over and over again, despite injury and exhaustion. They don't want a fast match that will be over in a flash, they want a match that will go for two hours and draw large amounts of money. Very, very few dogs have that ability - even when selectively bred from lines of 'champions'. Colby himself said how hard it was to get even one or two dogs in a litter that would do this. So therefore testing the dog on a dog with it's mouth tied and can't fight back or another animal is a pretty poor and useless test to see if the dog has what it takes to do what they want it to do. In fact it tells them nothing about whether the dog they are testing is worth keeping. That dog might be happy to go for a dog that won't fight back but buckle as soon as a dog does. Why would you use that test to decide which dogs to keep!? We're not talking about organised dog fighting here, we're talking about idiots with DA dogs. Sadly they are becoming the majority and not the minority and idiots will do idiotic things like steal dogs. It's a sad state of affairs and yes social media has a big part to play in putting the idea in their heads in the first place. If we're not talking about organised dog fighting I fail to see how it could be happening on such a large scale around the country, let alone so many dogs in one single area. And if we're not talking about organised dog fighting then we should stop referring to it as such, and instead label it as generalised animal cruelty. Dogs might be getting stolen, but what I'm wondering is if there's any evidence that these thefts are for dog fighting. The attendance of those people doesn't necessarily mean anything - if there's enough public outcry over something then they have to respond and speak to people about it. I'd assume this is it. Part of the reason I'm asking is that I'd like to read about it if there is evidence. Evidence! Is there any evidence that 'entire' dogs adopted from shelters contribute to unwanted/unplanned litters? ML you rely upon "evidence" (unless you are going by US) anyone involved with AW in Aust knows any evidence at all is non existant. Councils are not even able to regulate basic chipping and rego of dogs in Aust! I'm not sure what to say. If the evidence is non existent I don't know how you have come to the conclusion that it is happening. I work in enforcement in an animal field. I spent a month in the states in May on internships with the two most prominent Pit Bull rescue and advocacy groups in the country, who themselves are involved in the investigations of organised dog fighting and assess the dogs and their situation and decide whether they are adoptable. One of the groups also started their organisation by going straight to the source to get their information on the history of the breed and the dogfighting world. They spent a long time talking to actual confirmed dog fighters and collecting information on the 'sport' itself and on the keeping and training of the dogs, as they wanted to understand everything about the breed. I also am in contact with a large group of American Animal Control Officers that investigate organised dog fighting and cruelty cases on a regular basis. I've also done a lot of reading on the history of the breed, just like anyone else may have done. That is where I'm basing my comments. That and the fact that I have never seen any evidence of this happening. I actually didn't come into this thread to 'prove that this is just another untrue story'. I asked for evidence of this as if there is any I would like to see it. I'm happy to eat my words if any of this supposed stealing/bait dogs/fighting ring stuff is evidenced and proven to be true. I'm also sick of this thing being perpetuated over and over again. It hurts owners, who think that their dogs are being mauled to death, and are constantly being told that their dog was 'probably stolen for fighting' while they're frantically searching for them. It also hurts the dogs who are missing as people may stop looking for them, thinking they're long gone and there's no point.

They pit them against the other dogs to test instinct. They aren't stealing people's pets to do it. Like I said they have a surplus of their own dogs that are useless for the pit, plus their other fighters at their disposal. There's no point in taking the risk of being caught for theft and therefore exposing their entire disgusting operation (dogfighting is felony in the US and carries jail time) when there are many many dogs within their own and other fighters yards that can be used. Again, yes it happens occasionally, on a very small scale, from inexperienced idiots that just want to abuse animals and pretend that they are 'dog men', but it's not widespread, typical or commonly done with stolen dogs from people's backyards. We have to remember that organised dog fighting isn't just letting two dogs go at it for a short while. The dog has to be willing to cross the line and engage with the other dog over and over again, despite injury and exhaustion. They don't want a fast match that will be over in a flash, they want a match that will go for two hours and draw large amounts of money. Very, very few dogs have that ability - even when selectively bred from lines of 'champions'. Colby himself said how hard it was to get even one or two dogs in a litter that would do this. So therefore testing the dog on a dog with it's mouth tied and can't fight back or another animal is a pretty poor and useless test to see if the dog has what it takes to do what they want it to do. In fact it tells them nothing about whether the dog they are testing is worth keeping. That dog might be happy to go for a dog that won't fight back but buckle as soon as a dog does. Why would you use that test to decide which dogs to keep!?

They source their dogs by selective breeding. Having a dog that is game enough to fight in a Pit and keep crossing that line despite injury and exhaustion is very hard to achieve even when carefully and selectively breeding from parents with those traits, and requires very careful conditioning from a young age - the likelihood of finding such a dog by stealing adult family pets is so low, it's simply a stupid exercise when you can breed dogs much more easily and without the risk of getting caught by police stealing. Dogs are stolen sometimes, yes. But escaped doesn't necessarily = stolen and stolen doesn't necessarily = fighting. Maybe here or there an uneducated young idiot might have some grandiose ideas about stealing dogs for fighting (probably from seeing it posted all over facebook by animal advocates) and gives it a try. But I have yet to see any evidence for any of the claims I have ever read on facebook or on here about dogs being stolen for fighting. Hence why I asked the OP if there was any evidence of it. Yes, I'm doubtful, but if there is I'd really like to read about it. So they source bait dogs in selective breeding as well? 'Bait Dogs' are largely a myth. They were never used historically in dog fighting, even when it was legal and widespread, and they are typically only used now by young thugs who are simply perpetuating animal cruelty, not actually involved in any sort of organised fight ring. It has been argued that a lot of these young idiots actually get the idea of bait dogs in their heads from the constant messaging from well-meaning animal advocates that 'this is how you train a fighting dog', when it is anything but. It's simply not necessary or used by actual dog fighters. Even if they were using them, when you're breeding whole litters of dogs for this purpose you're lucky to get one or two in the litter that are any good at actually being in the pit. They have plenty of surplus dogs they've bred themselves and run on without success if they ever wanted to use them for this purpose. (usually they just kill them, the bastards). That's not to say it hasn't happened. It has, and it will continue to. But it is rare and not widespread at all, and like I said, typically only done by people who wish to commit cruelty, not people actually involved in fight rings.

They source their dogs by selective breeding. Having a dog that is game enough to fight in a Pit and keep crossing that line despite injury and exhaustion is very hard to achieve even when carefully and selectively breeding from parents with those traits, and requires very careful conditioning from a young age - the likelihood of finding such a dog by stealing adult family pets is so low, it's simply a stupid exercise when you can breed dogs much more easily and without the risk of getting caught by police stealing. Dogs are stolen sometimes, yes. But escaped doesn't necessarily = stolen and stolen doesn't necessarily = fighting. Maybe here or there an uneducated young idiot might have some grandiose ideas about stealing dogs for fighting (probably from seeing it posted all over facebook by animal advocates) and gives it a try. But I have yet to see any evidence for any of the claims I have ever read on facebook or on here about dogs being stolen for fighting. In fact, I've seen articles and statements from the Police and the RSPCA stating that despite all the facebook shares, they haven't any evidence or received any reports. Hence why I asked the OP if there was any evidence of it. Yes, I'm doubtful, but if there is I'd really like to read about it.

Dogs might be getting stolen, but what I'm wondering is if there's any evidence that these thefts are for dog fighting. The attendance of those people doesn't necessarily mean anything - if there's enough public outcry over something then they have to respond and speak to people about it. I'd assume this is it. Part of the reason I'm asking is that I'd like to read about it if there is evidence.

Is there any actual evidence of dogs being stolen for fighting in the area?

You seem to be placing fault on the leashed dogs here. If they were leashed and the little fluffy was off the leash then I'm sorry to say but the fluffy's owners were at fault and the poor little dog paid the price of it's owners stupidity allowing their dog to run loose and rush up to leashed dogs. This is a perfect example to SUPPORT the leashing argument.

I missed that the dog is a foster. In that case, an escape artist with aggression issues.... you really have to consider if this dog is rehomable and if it is safe to do so. I don't envy your position, good luck.

That's baloney! Plenty of people contain dogs, which can be aggressive, using electric fencing. Me being one of them and knowing of plenty of others. If anything, it contains a dog so it can't get out and be aggressive to others! This. If you just stick the collar on and let the dog go for it then sure, it may have some adverse affects. But there is usually a 10-day training period with these fences that teach the dog why they're getting a zap and how to avoid it. It's also baloney that you can't use it on dogs with separation anxiety either. The owners of one of my foster dogs had big big issues with her jumping the fence which started after a big thunderstorm. She would jump and injure herself. Got a hidden fence installed, did the training, and not only is she now contained but her anxiety-related behaviours have diminished greatly because she does not have the ability to work herself up and practice them all the time.

Any trainer that would deal with a particular dog's behaviour by attributing it to its breed would be one I'd run a mile from. You deal with the specific behaviour in the dog in front of you, not any generalised notion of what you think you might "know" about the breed you're dealing with. There are plenty of atypical dogs around and plenty of trainers who've learned the hard way that dogs don't always behave in ways you might expect. Assumption is the fast track to trouble in my opinion. Observation is how all experienced trainers commence dealing with a dog. This sort of thinking is how we got BSL in the first place. You CAN NOT assume that because a dog is a particular breed, it will have a particular temperament, triggers or traits. Genes make up only a part of how a dog behaves. You need to factor in all the other issues before you have an accurate analysis of the dog you are dealing with. Anyone game enough to make an assessment of a dog's behaviour based on owner description and not direct observation is playing with fire. I don't care how well you think you know a breed peeps, you do not know THIS dog. Have a care about the reassurances you're giving here. I hope you both realise that the dog's breed is by no means certain anyway. And that folks, is EXACTLY how BSL is justified. Some Pitbulls are aggressive to people. Therefore all Pitbulls are aggressive to people. There is "typical" or desirable breed behaviour but not all individuals of a breed display it. You improve the odds of a particular trait by line breeding but you don't guarantee it. Are all AST's dog aggressive? Do all German Shepherds have the capacity to be police dogs? Will all Whippets chase prey? Will all gundogs retrieve? Conversely, are no ASTs human aggressive? Nope. And to assume otherwise is to assume wrongly. We're probably not talking about a purebred dog here anyway. All brilliant posts. Said it better than I could have. Chris, you've shown more than once on here that you're a conscientious owner that wants to do the best by your pup. He's lucky to have you. Best contact one of the pros suggested on here and get that added help that will set you guys up for a wonderful life together. Let us know how you go.

Without seeing the behaviour no one can say what the motivation is behind it (and therefore how to work on it). It could be just bull breed mouthing/playing/overexcitedness or it could be him trying to control his environment/you. You need to get a pro out to have a look at what's going on, meet him, meet you, and give you a game plan moving forward. I recommend Glenn Cooke at Pet Resorts Australia if you're in Sydney. He's got over 20 years experience behind him, particularly with aggression issues. It's a small up-front cost to guarantee his future. http://www.petresortsaustralia.com/training/personal-training-2/ Good luck and good on you again for seeking advice early!

My heart breaks for you. I'm so sorry.