Zug Zug

So pleased to hear he's doing better. It can be so dicey when the little ones get sick.

When I first read his books there were some things that really rang true with me. The main thing I got out of it, and which I still wholeheartedly agree with, is: 1 - exercise 2 - discipline 3 - affection That is, in order to improve their chances of being in a calm state of mind most dogs need exercise first and foremost, then discipline and last of all, affection. I know he is most famous for the pack stuff, calm leader stuff. I see some good and some bad in that aspect of his method. I think a lot of people do need to learn how to take on the persona of a calm leader (myself included). It's not easy and not automatic for a LOT of people. And the alternative is often real frustration and sometimes very rough consequences for the dog. But some of his training becomes very aggressive, and can be dangerous. So in that respect he loses me.

Lots of breeds are capable of this kind of thing. I don't think naming the breed is all that helpful to be honest. I was attacked by a boxer once. Bad attack - nothing pretty or hesitant about that horrible dog. He just wanted to kill me and that was that. They had to drag him off with chains. But most boxers are lovely dogs. Sweet-natured goobers more often than not. It's the dog - not the breed. Most journos couldn't tell a pit-bull from a typewriter anyway.

I agree you need the vet! My now old bichon (12 years old now) was like this a few days after I got him as a very young pup. The vet and I were able to keep him alive, but he needed lots of visits in those first weeks and quite a few fluid injections at crucial moments. He kept collapsing and having convulsions. He needed 24 hour care - very scary. I had to pull out all the stops to keep him going. So did the vet. Thank god we did - it was a very near thing. Vet said he probably had a coronavirus. He's been a wonderful dog since then - the vet bills are expensive but necessary. Edited to add: I've just read some of your more recent posts and your pup sounds like he is making some progress which is fantastic. Keep your eyes on him and be watchful for any signs of going backwards. Things go up and down rapidly sometimes, so he needs coddling for a little longer yet. Fingers crossed - it sounds like he's progressing well so far. Keep those fluids up!

I suspect that in a case like this they would probably suggest you call the police anyway. As you say, animal control officers are thin on the ground and don't carry weapons/equipment to deal with this kind of emergency situation.

Hmm. I don't disagree with any of what I've read above, except to say that I have never found it easy to convince people that they need to keep their dogs away from my (small, fluffy, friendly-looking) DA dog. I don't know why - they just don't believe me. They seem to feel compelled to let their dog approach no matter what I say. And if they get too close before I can stop them, she lunges... So yes I defend her space as much as I can - but it's not 100% reliable is it?

In relation to the gentle leader - I agree you should definitely be coupling to the flat collar as well. It IS possible for a dog to back out of these things - a smart dog will work this out sooner or later and that won't be a fun day for you I suspect. Make it secure now and every time - before this happens. I am chuckling from all the references to poodles and owners with chronic back pain. I meet both of these descriptions of pathetic and hopeless handlers/dogs. Oh well! Funny - my DA dog being a poodle x didn't help much the day she spotted some small dogs off in the distance and ran off down the beach to attack them. Their owner was the only person on that beach more horrified than me. Thank god her dogs were okay - it was such a fast and unexpected thing. If my dog was a GSD that day.... Honestly we were just lucky. RockDog - it sounds from your recent posts like you are still taking risks by letting your dog off-lead when you are in 'quiet areas' and you are pretty sure the coast is clear. I have some experience with this - I spent some time in denial too (too much time, I'm afraid - as the lady on the beach that day would certainly agree). It's just a really bad idea. Your dog will see another dog on the horizon LONG before you will, and will react faster than you will be able to. If you think you can keep your eyes peeled, you're kidding yourself. Keep him on a lead. It's the only way to keep him (and other dogs) safe. I know it seems unfair - my heart sank too when faced with this prescription for my dog. They love their freedom and it seems such a shame to deny them the chance to run free. But honestly it will keep happening and it's just too big a risk to take. You keep him on lead for his own sake - you are protecting him by doing this, not hurting him. So often people approach from BEHIND you with another dog. It's just not possible to stop that from happening.

I agree professional help is needed. Ask around and make sure you get someone good. I don't agree that negative reinforcement alone will fix Rocky's problem. It could possibly make things escalate further and a good behaviourist will look at your situation more closely and give you advice that matches the situation you are in. Aggression problems are very challenging for the owner aren't they? Hang in there - you are doing the right thing by keeping Rocky separated from other dogs so he can't practice this behaviour any more than he has, while you line up that first appointment. I say this as an owner of a DA dog myself. It's not easy and can be very upsetting at times. Good on you for taking responsibility and taking it seriously. So many people just fall into that trap of making excuses, and can't face the problem. You're facing it head on - three cheers from me!

If you're feeling emotions like that this is probably why you're having problems. Seperation anxiety is also usually caused by the owner due to mis-interpreted pack dynamics. I would probably reccomend you start learning and implenting Leadership before you start your training. Sorry Sas but I don't think this is always (or even usually) the case. Sometimes separation anxiety is caused by the dog being an anxious and frustrated dog. It is easy to try and lay the responsibility for separation anxiety on the handler, and I know this is a common conclusion that people draw, but I think it can be misleading and make people waste a lot of time on guilt. Some dogs are more anxious than others. As a handler, it is quite likely that you didn't cause this. You do need to know how to manage it, but Leadership is only a part of the equation. Knowing your dog's current limits is also an important part of the equation. Pushing them too hard can often increase their anxiety issues, so it's 'one step at a time' in my opinion. ETA: big fan of harnesses here too. Enjoy the beach and keep training loose leash walking in more controlled (calm) environments. Then gradually you can generalise loose leash walking to more exciting environments (like the beach) and situations (like when the other dog is also alongside). But to try to string all those things together at this stage of your training is just not going to work. In the meantime use a harness in these situations to keep things under control.

I agree with lots of what is above. I would do a lot more work on stays than I did, and probably get her picking up different objects earlier (including metal). I would like to think I would concentrate more on getting the basics really solidly in place before moving on, but knowing my nature I would get bored with too much repetition...

It's been a long time so I thought I should just drop a post in to say hello. No progress really. We've gone back to basics to try and build the sit and drop stay 'in sight' up again, because we completely lost our ability to do stays AT ALL for a while. She is now back to being relatively comfortable in a long-ish distance sit and drop stay, but only with me in sight. Won't be trying out of sight stays again for a while. Probably not until next year. In the meantime, we'll compete in vintage class and have a bit of fun. CDX may be out of reach for us in the end, but I didn't want to keep putting her under that kind of pressure. If she starts to find it more comfortable, we might come back to it or we might not. We'll just see how it goes. ETA: Oops sorry Zaubistar I've just read your post more closely. No we are not using a program at the moment. I tried putting one together but got a fair bit of feedback that it wasn't a good program, and I wasn't sure what I needed to change and then kind of dropped it. Perhaps I'll come back to something over the next few months. I've never really kept training notes much but perhaps the 10x proofing idea is a good thing to do. At the moment, just happy to get a stay out of her without her getting upset.

Try throwing the food rewards sometimes, so your dog has to chase it to get the reward. It works a treat with my dog - it seems to combine the food and prey drive perfectly, and she just doubles her excitement as soon as I start doing it. Has to be a fairly visible kind of treat - fritz or cheese or whatever. Also keep it quick and end the training session early, while you're dog is still having fun. Less is more.

I need something to aim for or I start getting bored in our training, and also just start training less and less because my motivation drops away. Zamba doesn't care if we compete or if we just 'do stuff'. But if we're not competing, I start getting slack and then she starts getting NAUGHTY!!! So it's better all round if we have something to aim for and work towards. Also it helps me ensure she is working to me, rather than manipulating me into working for her.

Yes I have a very persistent dog at home (Zamba). I remember watching her in her younger days pacing up and down our fenceline looking for a weak spot. She always seemed to find one (or create one). She was a tough gig back then. She is smart and driven and very energetic - a wicked combination if ever there was one! How does it affect our training? It means that so long as I have her motivated, she will drive her training forward with absolute focus and determination. I need to be very sharp and specific about what I am rewarding. Example: I tried teaching her to hide her face under her paw a few months back. It sort of worked - except she was swatting her face with her paw and wouldn't hold the paw still over her nose, which is what I was wanting. If I withheld the reward (waiting for her to slow the paw down rather than just smacking herself) she just went into lots and lots of repeated face smackings. You'd think that was an extinction burst, but... Months later, she's still doing it. It drives me crazy. I haven't rewarded it for months. But she KNOWS this is something I should reward, and she just keeps on doing it. Finally, very recently, it's started to happen less. But still happens. I only rewarded it for 2 short sessions a LONG time ago, but she has been fixated on it. So the lesson is this: my training must be precise, because she will go into it with gusto and give her her all every time and if I teach a bad habit she'll probably keep it. But it also makes things easier in the sense that if I get it right, she'll stick with that too.

And the reverse is true. I have a Bichon Frise at home who is so willing and pliable, he could be owned by most people and he would be a very hard dog to 'stuff up'. So a very suitable breed for a first time owner - so long as they understand the need to groom.

I have a DA dog. We don't go to dog parks because it is just too much for her. Even on lead - dog parks seem to be full of untrained hyper-enthusiastic goober dogs that want to jump all over her (and their owners can't stop them). Much better to take her somewhere quiet and keep her safely on lead. I also have a non-DA dog - the ultimate little socialite. But I still don't take him to dog parks. There are too many bonkers-dogs out there and it's a very high-intensity, high-risk environment. There are safer places to go.

By the way, this is what the website says about allergies: So they ask the question, but dismiss the answer? Shedding and allergies have much more than a loose connection. I think this is very misleading advice.

OK, I think there is a problem with their survey. They ask all the right questions, but seem to give you the wrong answers. My test results are: 1. Akita 2. Alaskan Malamute 3. Anatolian Shepherd Dog 4. Bernese Mountain Dog 5. Black Russian Terrier I would be badly allergic to all of these breeds - so much for the allergy question (obviously I answers 'yes' to having an allergy problem). Beyond that, a number of these dogs are quite headstrong breeds. I don't think they would really suit me temperament-wise either. Maybe I'm wrong, but the Alaskan Malamutes I have met have been pretty headstrong. And physically strong, too. I only rated myself to be of good health, not excellent health. I could not physically hold onto a strong Malamute. Although if I didn't have allergies, I could be very tempted by a Bernese Mountain Dog. They are beautiful. Sigh...

I get really annoyed with those online questionnaires - none of them ask about allergies so they always suggest breeds with fur and I can't have dogs with fur but only wooly-coated dogs. So for me the question about anyone with animal allergies in the household is an important question, also.

Hmm, thanks Rubystar but it's okay - no need to feel sorry for me I've found some of this discussion very interesting. Nev - I know not all of your points were aimed at my original post, but I do have a dog that you may consider to have a 'poor nerve platform' and I do trial with her, so I want to respond. First, she loves trialling. It's not just me - she really thrives on it. Actually it's me who gets slack sometimes (like recently) and it's her antsy behaviour at home when not kept mentally stimulated that gets me back out there. I had a number of people come up to me after her individual exercises the other weekend to congratulate me on how happy she is when working in the ring. And it's true - it's a game to her and she has a ball doing it. The problem for us is the stays, and this does get back to her life-long separation anxiety issues. I think you make a fair point in this regard. If the out of sight stays remain a very distressing thing for her, in spite of my efforts to make her more comfortable, then I will stop trialling at that level - plain and simple. After all, there's always veterans/vintage class for which (at 12 years old) she is more than eligible. And in that class the stays are always in sight (I think). But it's too early to make that call just yet I think, because deep down I know I haven't given her a solid enough foundation yet for the out of sight stays, so I need to go back and build that up. She has surprised me many times during her life so you never know. If I had taken the view with her that she had a poor nerve platform and was therefore faulty in some way, we would both have missed out on some wonderful experiences. But having said that I have another little dog at home who just didn't enjoy this kind of training and would not have liked trialling - so he is a happy little couch dog and enjoying a quiet old age. So you're right there is a line. But some anxiety in the ring is not, in itself, evidence that the dog should not be trialling. It's more complicated than that.

Some great ideas here. Really like the idea of someone rewarding while I am away. Thanks everyone. I'll get back to work and let you know how it goes. P.S I don't think physiological but possible. She has had a bit of a tummy bug recently also. No more bones for my old girl she can't digest them anymore. But she has had separation anxiety since we first found her in the pound and my instincts say this is the latest version of her various anxieties.

OK, well in that case I've been working on the 3 D's since we started training stays many years ago. Of the 3 I would say distance is the one she worries about the most.

Thanks everyone! Lots to think about. You've asked me lots of questions so I'll try to answer as many as I can: Have I considered use of an e-collar? No. At this stage I would not want to introduce something like that. She is nervous and a bit panicky now. Her stress is genuine - she is not just being disobedient. I want her to be confident and I don't think an e-collar would help build her confidence. Can I explain when she breaks? She used to break stays when we trialled in CCD. So I went back to kindergarten then and did lots of reinforcing in stays. After that she became rock solid with in-sight stays through the rest of our CCD and Novice trialling. Her training for out of sight stays at home has progressed pretty well over the last 8 months or so. Steady improvement. And she is pretty solid (most of the time) at club (I train at 2 different clubs - one on Wednesday nights and the other on Sunday mornings). But those are with dogs she has become familiar with. And the Wednesday night class has stopped doing the group stays because of lack of time. When she has lost confidence it goes like this - nervous dog looking around a lot, whining dog, then (a few times at trials only) panicked dog that is coming to find me. :D What have I done so far to build her confidence in the stays? Repetition and reward. Tried to do different things at different times e.g. in the spare bedroom, in the passageway, in the backyard, and in different bits of the backyard, then at the local park, and at club etc. But I think I haven't done enough here, because she isn't confident so I think more repetition needed. Have I done the 3 Ds? I don't know what that is. Is the DentaStick being used during or after the stay? After mostly. Occasionally I break it up smaller and go back to give some during, but if I'm honest I haven't done that much. Is the DentaStick an effective reinforcer? I.e. does it improve her performance? Good question - I think so but I'm not really sure. It has worked well in the backyard phase of her training. She really loves these things and sees them as a jackpot reward I would say. It's the kind of thing that when she gets it she wants to run off and eat it somewhere private (but I've stopped letting her run off with it otherwise she'll bolt off the line in a trial). But I don't know we're having problems. Maybe because I use them at home but haven't done enough with them away from home? I'm not sure. Should I let go of a September trialling dream? I had my heart set on completing her CDX this year. You're probably right I should probably let go of any given date. But she is 12 years old and I worry that if we don't get there soon, we might not get there at all. But then, if we don't sort the stays out properly, we won't get there anyway so I am very aware of the flaw in my logic here. It's an emotional thing on my part. Should we go with a performance-based decision based on where she is up to, rather than a set date? Probably. See above. Sigh. Can we practice at the sidelines in a trial setting? I think yes, although I did get in trouble for this recently because I went behind a hide and she got very stressed and bolted off to find me. I had a few people watching, but they couldn't get my eye at the right time (I was looking down at my stop-watch). I got told off and lost my nerve a bit after that, but I do think I'll need to do some stays at the sidelines of some trials before we can work this out. Because it seems there is something spooky about trial environments. But I should ask for less from her until I'm really sure she can handle it. Also there is a mock trial locally next weekend which I'm going to. I'm thinking about doing the stays, but remaining in sight for this mock trial. Again, to help get her confidence back up. Will they let me do that do you think?

OK, so Zamba and I have been experiencing lots of stay problems of late. We'd had a pretty good set of stays to finish novice, but has fallen apart as we've moved up to out of sight stays in open. It has developed into a situation where she stays happily at home and in our local park (mostly), but panics in a trial environment. It has happened 3 times now - once at a mock trial, then training on the sidelines at a trial a few months ago, and again yesterday. So it's definitely a pattern - she just panics in a trial environment when I'm out of sight. This should not surprise me - she's always had separation anxiety issues. This is just the latest version. So we're going back to kindergarten and I'd love some feedback on the following re-training plan. It's all based around her favourite thing in the world - denta stix: - week 1 - at home (inside or out) - 2-3 min sit stay out of sight = half a denta stick, then random length drop stay out of sight up to max 2 mins = other half denta stick (she will find this very easy but I want to get her confidence back up) - week 2 - in our local park - 30 seconds to 2 mins sit stay out of sight = half a denta stick, then random length drop stay out of sight up to max 2 mins with me popping my nose out occasionally to look at her = other half denta stick - week 3 - in our local park - 1-2 min sit stay out of sight = half a denta stick, then random length drop stay out of sight up to max 1.5 mins = other half denta stick - week 4 - in our other local park - 2.5 - 3.5 min sit stay out of sight = half a denta stick, then 2-4 min drop stay out of sight = other half - week 5 - in either one of the 2 local parks we often train at - min 3 min sit stay out of sight = half a denta stick, then min 4 min drop stay out of sight = other half - week 6 to 10 - same thing but in lots of different parks, varying the length of the stays each time (some short ones, some longer ones, but no longer than 4 mins in the sit or 7 mins in the drop). Occasionally making them very short e.g. 1 min just to keep her interested. Then we enter another trial. By then it will be mid to late September. What do people think? I'm thinking we find a chance to train it once a day - either in my lunch break or after work. I will muck around with other stuff in the meantime, just to keep it there, but concentrate on the stays. Her other exercises are not perfect, but they are already in place and it's just polishing really. Stays are the problem. Realistically some of those park trips will end up being at home, 'cos it will be too cold and dark some nights. But we get out and about as often as we can. ???

Sigh - another problem with our stays this weekend. To be fair, it has been very cold here in Adelaide the past few weeks and we haven't trained at all (well, very little). But she was turning into a brat at home and I thought 'this dog really needs a good outing' and we were already entered in yesterday's trial so I thought 'why not?'. We went along and although we failed the individual exercises I was pretty happy overall. She missed the drop on recall (sat instead) and then went around the jump with the dumbbell after a shocking throw from me. But other than that she was happy and working nicely, so I was pretty happy with that effort. Then the stays (drum roll please).... She did the sit stay ok - yay! Progress (well, something anyway). But her heart was beating pretty fiercely so I possibly should have called it a day there but didn't. The drop stay not so good. Apparently she sat up early, then I could hear her whining, then crying, then she broke. When we returned she was sitting at the judge's feet looking very distressed. Today at club she wouldn't even stay in a drop stay for 30 seconds - so we're right back to kindergarten for the next few weeks to get back up to speed. I honestly don't know if she'll ever be able to do the stays with me out of sight at a trial. She can do it at home, she can do it in the local park. But in a trial situation she just freaks. I'll keep training her and you never know, but if it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. If it does, it does.