Nic.B

Hey Steve & Sundgrubber I used this news story from the US as on paper it all looks good and they state they are "state of the art". Yes they comply with most things. It is not until you see the actual footage that you can see how inhumane it is to keep dogs this way and how wrong breeding dogs this way is imoral and unethical. The females and males remain in their cages for their entire lives and the puppies have a really crap start to life with a stressed out and unhappy Mum to begin with. Then they are very poorly rehomed. If the RSPCA or any council or ranger or AWL inspector or the police went into that terrible joint they would be powerless to act "as they comply to the law" That is simply not good enough for these animals nor for many animal lovers and advocates.

Thanks Steve, I understand what you are saying. It really is a nightmare... I guess from where I sit, and where others in A/W sit it has got to the point where enough is enough. It is important all things need to be considered, it's just that there is no real action in addressing the issues. Not to long ago I stumbled upon a puppy farm in the US I think (internet) It is said to be state of the art (which is why I am using it as an example) but god it was a shocking life for those dogs. I will try to find it for you. ETA Found it; http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=7187712&page=2 Sadly the part where he puts the dog in a running wheel (like a mouse) wont work for me. What are other peoples thoughts on this? Is this acceptable? Is this considered state of the art for you? Do you belive the dogs have good quality of life in a set up like this? Really interested in your thoughts and opinions.

I dont have a clue how anyone can or does look after 1000 dogs but Im not prepared to make judgements on whether they are or are not cruel to their animals based on emotional argument which is not conducive to science or on another case which has been sensationalised. If dogs are suffering there is a system in place for the places to be inspected and action taken, council, police, and RSPCA are charged with this - there is no need to go in under cover of darkness because the same dogs and the same conditions are there in daylight and when you come through the front gate. Of course what we do is different to what Debra Tranter does. Firstly nothing we do is illegal and the breeder gets a fair chance to defend themselves. They already have given us permission to investigate any compliants against them and they are advised when these complaints are lodged. So far we havent received a complaint against any of our members that they keep their animals in poor conditions but if we do Ill be there with two others personally and I wont need a private investigator or to break in at night to do so. I'll knock on the front door and ask to take a look. Our use of a PI so far has been when our members have been accused of fraud and not providing necessary infomation etc as we didnt have the skills and resources required to do it ourselves but the breeders knew we were investigating it and so far have been cleared. Geez things move quickly on DOL LOL (sorry had no internet access) I guess many people look at things differently (as I do) I love animals of all kinds, it is very upsetting for me personally to see animals suffer in any way shape or form. I know you would feel the same, as with many others on DOL. I think it is very important to tell the story of animals who may suffer from abuse, neglect or inhumane treatment. Even if it is passive neglect. I am not just referring to companion animals. I believe it is important to see footage of all animals being slaughtered or treated appallingly. It is the animals rights groups who get in there to expose cruelty and neglect and I am grateful for their hard work and dedication. Yes they upset people, because those with a vested interest or breaking the law, or a non existant moral code do not want us to know. Personally I find that more scary. I am not saying that everyone must be perfect. We all have bad days, though if you came to my home (even on a bad day) you would be greeted by 7 very happy, healthy dogs who are loving their lives, our cat and our horses, not to mention the kids! Puppy farmers don’t care, they truly don’t. Too many animals are dying in pounds and shelters, over 250,000 a year. It has got to stop. I agree there are a lot of separate issues to address, and separate groups of people with different concerns. Nothing is being done to address the issues and as my prime concern is animal welfare, I embrace Oscars Law and commend them for raising awareness for companion animals suffering at the hands of puppy farmers.

I accept that there are differences, though I don’t believe they are that far apart. How many experienced staff do large commercial kennels have to care for 1000 dogs? And they need to be great staff who are committed to the welfare of the animals in their care. How on earth would you be able to socialise and exercise all 1000 dogs daily? They need feeding, puppies and mothers three times a day, that takes forever alone with 1000 dogs. Dogs also need treatments and their individual needs met through breed type, age, condition etc. I personally find it impossible to comprehend responsibly meeting 1000 dogs needs daily, just though my own experiences. A captive workforce is also used to describe disadvantaged groups of people who are forced to work or do something without a choice. (eg people with disabilities) I have experienced this as well and it is very sad. People forced to work, free of charge for a service to profit. Steve you have said that you use private detectives to check out breeders you are concerned about which is great. I do not mean to offend though how is that any different to what Debra Tranter is doing? Perhaps welfare orgs are best paying a private detective if they share the same concerns? Would that be more acceptable? I agree it is a messy and contentious issue and there are a broad range of issues to address. I hope and pray one day soon there will be some huge leaps forward for companion animals.

I find comments in the other thread about the Beagle female very disturbing. That is simply not quality of life for a companion animal, poor little soul. In terms of meeting companion animal’s needs, I know how difficult that can be for say 50 dogs through volunteering at my local shelter. It takes an excellent team of very hardworking staff to meet these animal’s needs. Feeding, coating, cleaning, medications, bathing, grooming, flea treatments . Then there is exercise, stimulation and human company/affection/interaction. And these dogs are only there for 2 weeks max. If there is a female/s in whelp, we are twice as busy. Feeding three or four times a day, supplements, ensuring she gets a break from bubs, cleaning bedding, ensuring they are a good temp, worming and god knows what else. I also know the hard work needed to raise puppies as I had a litter of Border Collie rescues here and my god it was hard work! cost me an absolute fortune but to see the little ones and Mum head off to their new homes beautifully socialised, happy, robust and desexed was priceless. I guess what I am trying to say is that it is a massive responsibility and commitment to meet companion animals needs. Many of these places have over 1000 dogs. IME it would be impossible to meet the needs of these animals, especially considering the length of time they live there. It makes me feel really sick actually, a captive workforce with no voice. That shocking lady even openly admitted it was like jail (may be on another thread)

Oh dear.... I have an aweful feeling we are in snake heaven. Pool, dam, compost heap and surrounded by National Park. My neighbour had a huge RBB yeaterday. The wires people came in and got him. They were here in 25 minuites. Snake Catcher; they relocate the snakes in the national park around us. Do the snakes come back to where they came from if it is not very far away? I have seen dozens and dozens of snakes while riding in the NP. The horses nearly always spot them before I do. Sorry if it is a stupid question. I agree you have a real talent handling those snakes.

No doubt. There is a place in this world IMO for dogs prepared to do harm to humans who simply trespass. IMO Australia is not one of those places and a dog with the temperament of the Fila needs to be carefully placed in the right homes anywhere. A correctly temperamented Fila will do more than just guard.. so when little Timmy comes uninvited over the fence looking for his tennis ball, he won't be leaving in one piece. I'd say he wont' be leaving anyway but in a coffin. Anyone who could casually say that they wish to own such a dog in an urban setting in this country needs their head read. Place that argument in a place like Johannesburg and its a whole new ball game. What ever "poodle fan". I live in one of the roughest neighborhoods in Australia, we had over 5 murders in this suburb last year and many, many other bashings, sexual assaults and attacks. Just cause you live in posh poodle ville doesn't give you a right to judge. I've only been here a year and I have already had my place broken into and my possession stolen, including my former dog (which was a labradore). You can really go stuff your opinions. Little Timmy isn't going to be coming over my 3 metre high fence, I don't have any kids as neighbors and all the neighbors are long term. Its none of your bloody business why I want a specific dog or not, and I have every right to have a guard dog that is capable of taking down an intruder for my protection (well I should have that right, if Australia wasn't such a gutless cotton wool nanny state). I have a right to protect myself whatever you may think. You may like dogs that are "like little poodles" but I like real dogs with assertive temperaments that are capable of protecting me. BTW You would make a great leader for this nanny state, seeing as you like to judge other peoples business. I am a responsible owner, entirely capable of managing my dog and restricting my dog to my property. You are a clown who likes to think people are too irresponsible to handle things and everything should be banned. Oh and "poodlefan", there are many non-banned breeds which are quite capable of mauling to death little Timmy, I have met great danes and other dogs that would maul little Timmy if he jumped the back fence, its not the breed, its how the dog is trained and socialized, its hypocritical and deluded reasoning that thinks some breeds are "bad". There is no such thing as an evil or bad breed of dog. Screw the government banning everything (especially dogs), because of the extremely small minority of dog attacks by irresponsible dog owners (you know instead of actually holding those owners heavily responsible). Ban cars, ban back yard pools, ban swimming, ban sports, lets all wrap the whole of society in cotton wool and take away all of our liberties, otherwise poodlefan might have nightmares about the bad things that could happen. OH WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN! What a discusting post. You are obviously a very angry, nasty person. Glad I dont live near you! I think you are full of it as well. Agreed, NicB. You sound like the type of person these breeds really don't need. On a forum people can say they have 3 meter fences and are the the pinnicle of responsible dog ownership but sometimes the main assertions belie the subtext. CyberG, Living in such a dangerous area I don't blame you for what you want in a dog. Truth be known and if people were honest like you...they too would hope their dog/s would protect them and their property if the case ever arose. I know I would !!! You have every right to your opinion as everyone else does. Its just a pity some on here have forgotten this and expect everyone to parrot them in their sanctimonious pious beliefs. So take no notice of them. The OP has stated (amongst other things) that his dog was stolen from his own yard. Personally I wouldn’t give ANYONE the opportunity to steal or play havoc with my dogs, nor ask them to be the "be all and end all" in protecting my yard or home. My own dogs are all kept responsibly inside the house when I am not home, and for GOOD reason. He now want's a Restricted breed to solve his problems? Who is to say that dog won’t also be stolen and also fall into the wrong hands? And why on earth would you expect your dog to address/tackle every issue in your own neighbourhood? ETA

That poor white dog looked utterly terrified. Be at peace, little one. Yes Sheridan, I felt so sorry for the white dog with the eye patches. Very very sad. I was frustrated with this part of the segment. Many dogs are terrified upon entry to a pound or shelter. Different smells, sound, vibe etc. Often it can take them a day or so to settle, a small number shut down completely and can be difficult to assess/work with. This can happen with any breed though, including SWF's What they didnt show was the happy, well adjusted staffy mixes who happily sit at the front of their pen with a smile and bum wiggle for every passer by. Introducing two stressed dogs through the fence like that is just stupid, an expected response from the dogs under the circumstances. Camera/sound men just adds to the stress, obviously done for show. You did an awesome job Sumosmum! congatulations and thank you Monty is gorgeous!

Lovely runs OSoSwift! Yikes, honestly I dont know what else you could possibly do? Just so very frustrating. We had a snake in the pound last summer! There is no grass, all concrete/pens, brick walls and wire roof yet it came into the kennel area under a small gap of one of only two doors!! Luckily the pound was open and staff were in with volunteers, god knows what would have happened otherwise. It must have been looking for water?

Thank you for the info Snake Catcher. How is a snake proof enclosure achieved? All of my dogs are fully supervised in our yard or inside the house with us during snake season. We have had a snake inside the house, and the two we (I) had to dispatch last summer were at our back and front doors standing up like jackie with their heads going from side to side about to attack our dogs who had been inside all day and had just been let out in the yard. Luckily I was with the dogs, our old kelpie female was rushed to the vet as I thought she had been biten. I have seen the biggest snake at the bottom of our long driveway. He was heading over from our neighbours dam to ours I think, though I disturbed him with the car. I thought he was a stick or some bark, his head and front of his body was up in the air looking about. By the time I reversed the car back he was heading off. I only saw his body slither away and he was a very big boy! I live in the Hawkesbury and we had a really bad snake season last year. It is a real worry when you have little kids and animals under threat in your house yard.

Laws are enforced (or not enforced) by human beings. I'd say, if your dogs are friendly and obvious non-problems from a behavioural perspective, but might possibly be mistaken for a restricted breed X, talk with your local Rangers. Make your fears transparent. Having your documents organised should help, as the Rangers may need to justify actions they take. Ask them if there is any point to further documentation. It may turn out, in your local area, to be a mountain made from a molehill. I'd guess most Rangers have a list of dogs who have gotten complaint after complaint, and when the sh#t hits the fan they'll go to those addresses first . . . hotline or no hotline. Thank you We could also include letters for those who have pets as therapy dogs etc. Cosmolo; would the shelter you work with write a refference for your dogs? Your little bunch are absolutely outstanding dogs in every regard. Maybe Hawkesbury could help with a letter as all your dogs were there for the Underdog seminar. My dogs are always inside if I am out, I think this is the safest option for everyone. I dont know of very many dogs who would be happy with an unknown rangers head popping over a fence. ETA My bull arab female was breed Id as a puppy by pound staff as a dane x. Should I be changing that to a Bull Arab? I have pics of both the dogs I am worried about, but have no idea how to post pics The "shark like grin" in the breed Id on page 3 of this thread is a real worry. Bull breeds have the best smile in the world IMO.

Sorry... If you have your dogs professionaly breed assesed, would that help?

Please ignore this if it doesn’t help or won’t make any difference. I have two dogs who could easily be targeted. A staffy/red cattle female and a bull arab female (registered as a dane x I believe at the pound) Both are gorgeous, well mannered, well socialised dogs. Would it help to do up a portfolio for my dogs? Things like all their chip/rego paperwork, puppy school cert, letters from trainers/behaviourists, vets, neighbours etc? You could even add DNA results as well if they were in your favour, or perhaps a professional breed assessment?

Thank You There is some really good advice. I have been sitting here cracking myself up at some of the DOLer comments, so funny

What about them? Lots of snakes love frogs. Lots of birds love frogs as well. So do foxes, cats, bats, and quolls. Platypus live on the edge of water bodies. That's their habitat. Doesn't mean they are going to come live in your yard because you have dog bowls full of water. I think you will find water is definitely a factor in any population of pretty much any species of animal on earth. With a few exceptions. I guess the difference is that birds, foxes, cats, bats, quolls and platypus dont have the potential to kill your animals or heaven forbid your children. I have never seen a fox, bird, cat, bat, quoll or platypus in my yard, or any other animals for that matter who pose a threat. As you have already said, water is a factor for any species of animal.

Yes, birds have been great at letting me know there is something odd going on.

Going by that description and the pics two of my dogs are in trouble. What a nightmare.

No doubt. There is a place in this world IMO for dogs prepared to do harm to humans who simply trespass. IMO Australia is not one of those places and a dog with the temperament of the Fila needs to be carefully placed in the right homes anywhere. A correctly temperamented Fila will do more than just guard.. so when little Timmy comes uninvited over the fence looking for his tennis ball, he won't be leaving in one piece. I'd say he wont' be leaving anyway but in a coffin. Anyone who could casually say that they wish to own such a dog in an urban setting in this country needs their head read. Place that argument in a place like Johannesburg and its a whole new ball game. What ever "poodle fan". I live in one of the roughest neighborhoods in Australia, we had over 5 murders in this suburb last year and many, many other bashings, sexual assaults and attacks. Just cause you live in posh poodle ville doesn't give you a right to judge. I've only been here a year and I have already had my place broken into and my possession stolen, including my former dog (which was a labradore). You can really go stuff your opinions. Little Timmy isn't going to be coming over my 3 metre high fence, I don't have any kids as neighbors and all the neighbors are long term. Its none of your bloody business why I want a specific dog or not, and I have every right to have a guard dog that is capable of taking down an intruder for my protection (well I should have that right, if Australia wasn't such a gutless cotton wool nanny state). I have a right to protect myself whatever you may think. You may like dogs that are "like little poodles" but I like real dogs with assertive temperaments that are capable of protecting me. BTW You would make a great leader for this nanny state, seeing as you like to judge other peoples business. I am a responsible owner, entirely capable of managing my dog and restricting my dog to my property. You are a clown who likes to think people are too irresponsible to handle things and everything should be banned. Oh and "poodlefan", there are many non-banned breeds which are quite capable of mauling to death little Timmy, I have met great danes and other dogs that would maul little Timmy if he jumped the back fence, its not the breed, its how the dog is trained and socialized, its hypocritical and deluded reasoning that thinks some breeds are "bad". There is no such thing as an evil or bad breed of dog. Screw the government banning everything (especially dogs), because of the extremely small minority of dog attacks by irresponsible dog owners (you know instead of actually holding those owners heavily responsible). Ban cars, ban back yard pools, ban swimming, ban sports, lets all wrap the whole of society in cotton wool and take away all of our liberties, otherwise poodlefan might have nightmares about the bad things that could happen. OH WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN! What a discusting post. You are obviously a very angry, nasty person. Glad I dont live near you! I think you are full of it as well.

I am not sure if extra water will help Willow, though it never hurts to try. Make sure your dogs water is only accesible for your dogs in a safe place. Perhaps try to find a concrete stock trough and put it well away from your yard...

Oh nasty We are paving as well and putting in a big retaining wall at the back. All will be filled in as well. I am worried as the pond at the back of the house we put in attracted snakes and lizards. This is close to where the pool is going (landscapers have taken everything out now)

I can relate to the two poly pipe thing. I thought there was washing machine parts or something dumped while riding, though it soon moved! Sammy (our Arab was aware of it before me) the two snakes then untangled from each other and slid away as they had been clearly disturbed. In my own humble experiences with water and a happy habbitat for snakes/reptiles; it definately plays a part.

Thanks for this info Jerojath

Great, I had better get a few! I have all the kits in my car for accidents for people etc and feel so much better knowing they are there if I need them.

Yes almost golden /honey coloured. Just a brown the vet said????? I took the offending body with me to the vets to be identified, so we could use the right anti venom, alas we did not save the bitch, but one of the dogs had retribution in it's death. I saw another exactly the same colour while mowing near the kennels in the middle of summer and the one that caused the death was in the middle of summer to, so I would say it's just their colour. I get lots of browns/tigers and red bellied blacks. Snake season does not seem to end where I live in Queensland just a slowing down in the cooler months. So sorry to hear your little girl did not make it Oakway Snakes and dogs are one of my greatest fears/nightmares.

Interesting. I guess it depends and where you live/ temps and what your circumstances are. I know that we had very few snakes in the house yard before I started leaving water sources all around the house yard for the dogs and lizards. Then we put in a small pond in the native garden close to the back of the house. The gardens are also now well established offering shade and protection. We have had so many snakes after that, and lizards of all kinds. Even a huge (dinosaur/monitor lizard) parading around the back yard. Luckily the dogs were inside as he was huge! All water sources have all been removed now aside from inside and on our deck. I removed the pond last summer as well. I love wildlife though I absolutely draw the line at snakes in my yard. Sadly the rest of the critters will now have to go elsewhere to have a drink and cool down. It is just not worth the risk in terms of my children and animals. A snake kit sounds great to have at home or while out and about Steve, what is in them and where do you get them? Can you use them for kids and animals?