Nic.B

Yes, they have a duty to "consider" alternatives to euth, but it must be in the best interests of the dogs and the safety of the community. Nowhere in any legisaltion does it state that dogs must be released to a "rescue" because they demand it. I agree, though that is the way MN operates WIW. You are spot on, councils can "use their discretion" in regard to the groups they work with. Sadly this group threatens legal action if they are not given the dogs, they also threaten to go to the media. Mayors and councils don't like bad publicity and most people in the community do not understand the many and at times complex issues.

Good Question Steve. I don't want to get overly involved, though I do believe temp testing is vital. I guess for me it depends on what the test entails and how experienced/savy the handlers are. I do believe AWL's temp test is very tough and difficult to pass, I have not done it myself though so don't know for sure. For me though (if I were in councils shoes) EVERYTHING would depend upon the group I sent that dog to. If there was proof, written statements and reports of dead dogs, children attacked, dogs impounded in other states, The rescue groups council ALREADY work with being consistently asked to take another groups dogs etc etc. For me it a no brainer. At times (when I was temp testing at HP) I would go back to the same dogs three or four times. I do believe the dogs need to "settle for 48 hours in the pound environment prior to temp testing. You also need to remain neutral and be 100% honest! The same issues surfaced for HP due to the same group. Dogs with any 'red flags' are now independantly assesed. The sad part is ethical rescuers did at times take dogs with medical or behavioural issues for many, many years. Though these rescues were brilliant, and the outcome was reported back to council (rehabilitae/pts) They made the hard call and were 100% responsible. Pr's do not opperate ethicaly, I wish for one moment they would stop and realise what they have created. MN states that they dont take HA dogs. The number of bites and attacks on children, vets, vet nurses and even their own pr's volunteers show differently. ETA 4th paragraph.

I was emailed this a short while ago, on the Pr's wall(apparently I can't stand looking at the site) after this letter is a photo of a dog being restrained and euthed. Follows below; Open letter to Blacktown City Council 17/03/2013 Dear Cr Len Robinson, ... In April 2011, Pound Rounds Inc began working with two pounds in Sydney, Blacktown Pound being one of them, to help them rehome the dogs on their kill lists. Both pounds had already agreed to work with rescue and had very limited restricted rehoming practices. Today is a sad day for all of us. For the reasons below, we are very sad to inform you that, save for the dogs we have already placed holds on, we have decided to suspend our efforts to assist Blacktown Pound in rehoming their kill listed pets effective immediately. This suspension will remain in place for as long as the pound remain committed to their new temperament testing procedure to decide which pets are killed, not which pets need urgent rehoming or remedial assistance. We have become aware that the new practice is not restricted to human aggression (which Pound Rounds have always supported as a not for release parameter) and goes further to include the presentation of dog reactivity as a reason to kill the dog, rather than release it for rehoming. In a pound environment this is wholly unjust. For almost two years, we have supported the staff at the pound and the Blacktown City Council in their successful and proactive efforts to help dogs let down by their owners, but no longer let down by their community. These efforts have seen Blacktown Council enjoy the full support of their community due to the record low levels of dog killing in their pound facility (practically "No Kill" levels). This record rehoming rate did not result in any spike in the incidence of dog attacks or anything of that kind in the area, the State of NSW or the country as a whole. In fact it was the most successful period of rehoming and community oriented support these pets have ever enjoyed. Pound Rounds and rescue in general accepted that some (very, very few) pets may have been damaged beyond what was possible to rehome. We trusted the pound's decisions because they were made with care, caution and included an understanding that, on the pound's advice to rescue, some dogs were not immediately rehomed, but kept in care for evaluation/treatment/testing/rehabilitation outside of the horrendously stressful pound environment. The introduction of a subjective, draconian and unwieldy instrument such as a so called “temperament test” to simply work out 'who to kill' is the end of the relationship of trust we have enjoyed with the pound for 2 years. In this case, following requests from rescue groups who were aware that the pound was full to capacity and therefore surprised that a kill list had not yet been disseminated, a kill list was subsequently provided to those rescue groups (including Pound Rounds) on the afternoon of Thursday 14th March. The list stipulated that the dogs were to be rehomed by Sunday 17th March at 11am (and additional to that deadline, there appeared a new 'disclaimer' regarding supposed “temperament testing”). Rescue groups went to work as usual. Homes were lined up and several different rescue groups and people from the community expressed interest in supporting their chosen dogs; warts and all. The next day, Friday 15th March, the pound's rehoming officer invited independent temperament assessors from the NSW Animal Welfare League (AWL) to assess the dogs on the list for rehoming. 5 of the 7 remaining dogs on the list were then killed without warning to the rescue groups. Most dogs on the list had been held, cuddled, photographed, videoed and walked by several different staff & pound volunteers. The AWL formally used these same temperament tests over 5 years ago to excuse a kill rate of well over 50% (2008/2009- greater than their rehoming rate). The RSPCA still uses these tests, quite infamously, to try and explain away a kill rate of over 50% of unreclaimed pet dogs. Campbelltown Pound still kills 64% of their pets. The Lost Dogs Home's temperament tests are used to excuse killing more than 10,000 pets every - single - year. These "temperament tests" are widely acknowledged by many as unscientific and out-dated. Under new leadership, not even the AWL uses these tests to simply kill dogs without efforts to rehabilitate or rehome them appropriately (warts and all). Blacktown Pound was, until 48 hours ago, a shining example to other facilities on how to partner with their community to help rehome the forgotten pets in their care. What gave rise to the sudden killing? Was there a sudden and startling increase in the number of independently verified reports of rehomed dogs presenting a greater risk to the community than any other dog? No. There is no probative evidence that makes these pets any less of a community pet just because they are impounded behind a council's brick wall. We have discussed the recent events amongst ourselves at length. Pound Rounds' mission statement mandates using all measures possible to save life. Unlike policies which utilise proactive measures such as rehabilitation or remedial support, our mission statement is not compatible with policies which allow and see temperament testing resulting in the unnecessary deaths of up to 70% of kill listed dogs tested. This is not least because of the possible (but highly likely) breed discrimination such policies may result in by default. Most kill listed dogs are bull breeds. Furthermore, in practical terms for rescues such as ourselves, such policies also hinder any ability to fundraise for the kill listed dogs, lest they be killed without notice. Moreover, and let me be personal for a minute - could any human being turn up week after week, year after year, to hold a special brindle dog, cuddle him, photograph him, promise him your help, try with all your heart to help save him, only to have that very boy killed sporadically by some arbitrary ruling? No? Nor can we. Nor, we suggest, can many volunteers who forge similar bonds with these breathing, living beings. The introduction of temperament testing leaves rescue groups, the pound's own volunteers, and the community that watch and support rescue's efforts, heartbroken and frustrated. If council can use the “temperament assessment” technique to mandate a pet's certain death for behaviours as growling at another dog in the pound, we simply cannot. What protective measures are in place to prevent the killing by law? Subject to exceptions in place for classified "dangerous" or "restricted" breeds, no matter how an animal (or dog in this case) ends up in a council pound, subsections 64(5) and 64A(2) of the Companion Animals Act 1998 (NSW) stipulate that it is the DUTY of the council concerned to consider whether there is an ALTERNATIVE action to that of destroying the animal and if practicable to adopt any such alternative. It is NSW state law to choose rehoming of these dogs. The incredibly difficult decision on our part to withdraw our support is not an indictment on the staff at the pound. We acknowledge that we have worked effectively with them for two years to rehome impounded community pets. We also hope this policy is repealed as soon as possible and temperament tests become a tool to help poundies receive the appropriate care, remedial work and homes they need to remain safe and cared for. The pound is full and the only victims will be the poor dogs still left in the facility whose fate is now left to chance or worse - judgement. However, we simply cannot fly in the face of our own doctrine and stand by and accept a policy which is so poorly implemented that 5 in 7 dogs were killed within hours of its introduction. It is not easy to turn away from the forgotten beings we have tirelessly sought to promote, save and rehome. The prospect leaves us truly shaken - but - and after much deliberation - we cannot stay silent on this issue and allow indiscriminate killing to occur while we stand by and simply watch. It is beyond what we can take as human beings. History is a great teacher. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing": Edmund Burke, political philosopher (1729 - 1797). Yours in tragedy. All at Pound Rounds For Marlon, Zorro, Clint, Ronan and Dignity. In loving memory.See More .

I understand what they are trying to say, but they seem to be assuming the petshop bought female dog next door to the undesexed rehomed rescue male is desexed - whereas it might not be. Why risk it? You can't control what the general public do with their dogs, but you can control what you can control. Exactly! How is Stoopid big d going to enforce desex of every entire female in Aust or around the world?

No, population control is dependent on the the number of reproducing females. Steralising males is practically irrelevent. Far out! Could it be true??!!! Big D has just solved the problem of unwanted/uplanned litters throughout the entire world!!!!!!!!!

I am so sorry for your loss Alyosha That is my worst nightmare. I know how much you adore your dogs. Run free boy

Maree from CPR in ACT (ACT is not far to travel) and RWL in VIC :)

I believe it is a myth Powerlegs. We had a brown early summer in the house yard I agree RRB are "well behaved" (as far as snakes go) but with little kids and animals it is a great concern. Don't understand why they come into the house yard? We have a massive dam at the front and our neighbours also have dams. So there is three tone of water, frogs and goodness knows what else all the way around this place. When I was a kid we had browns mostly, cranky things. Lucky we were so athletic and savy in the bush!

Thanks Jules, so far so good. I they should be fine. The only thing that has saved the dogs over and over again is supervision. I do a yard check first and then stay with them. Stay with your bub's Jules, at least that way we can intervene, recall or worst case, at least we know they have been bitten and can get to our vets. Fingers crossed no more snakes for any of us!

Thanks Nic. The snake is literally about 4 metres from the house, so way too close to comfort. I also have to rush out when clients arrive and redirect them to my work area so that their dogs are not at risk. I am worried a clients dog will stick its nose in the garden bed like they always do and be bitten for his troubles. We have pretty much been living in lock down here for the past week. Wires have said the snake needs to be out for them to catch it. They've said they cant do anything once he goes down his hole under his boulder. I'd quite happily enlist someone to blow his brains out, illegal or not, but I wouldn't put that on someone elses shoulders and don't want a gun. I have no qualms doing what I feel is necessary to protect what is mine. I didnt realise that about the Agapanthas. All my elderly ' clients last week have said 'oh, that's why they're called Snake Hiders'. I am going to rip the whole lot out but it's a big job and requires a man and a bobcat machine thingo and largish $$'s. I went and bought my daughter 4 pairs of gumboots last week and have a pair stationed at each exit. Do you think she can remember to put them on going outside? *mad eye rolly man* terrible, I really feel for you Clyde. I didnt know about aggy's either, the wires guys told me and when I thought about it it made sense as aggy's also have those long bulby bits tangled around each other at the bottom. I have a number here the police gave me last time, I will see if I can find it for you. I know what it is like to be living on edge, I hope the weather cools down soon though it is probably better to remove it before then as you might have the same problem next summer if it stays there. Thank goodness for gumboots! though yes the hard part is making sure they put them on I have given my kids a serious snake phobia (poor buggers) I would rather they are scared to death of them than not though! I wish I was closer as I would try to help you, though I have a tendancy to swear, scream and jump if I see a snake :laugh:

Sorry to be blunt, I do respect living with nature and I truly love animals (not snakes, though I do not ever want to hurt them) What am I to do? I have lived here 14 years, nothing has changed in the local area or upon this property. I live in a bit of a unique area :) I have been very lucky so far and that is only through management of both my dogs and the property. This little snake was in my dogs mouth before I could blink, on really short lawns (a number 2 out of 10 on the ride on) she dropped it and my large breed picked it up in a second Seriously, it scares the life out of me, I am not sure how many more close calls I can possibly have. I was not looking forward to a $3000+ vet bill today after I do everything in my power to manage my dogs and this property against snakes.

Try and place water away from there. lt might be thirsty?/ l wouldnt be happy with him taken shelter there. There is water everywhere here, I am in a high rain fall area. He has water points all around him, dog water, duck pond, chook water, the dam etc. The dam he can get to easily, he is living right near my water tank though (which he cannot access water from). Im not happy with him being there, but I dont really have many options. I see him every day sunning himself but am just thankful that he is non confrontational and slips off to his hidey hole. He isn't alarmed by me and will happily sun himself with me pottering around but the second someone else tiptoes in he is off like a shot. I think he has been there for some time and is used to me. If I could get him on flat ground I would throw a bucket or something over him but he likes to hang out in bush (lavender and agapanthas) so it's impossible to trap him in that way. I am just thankful that the Copperhead shot off in the other direction. The on Saturday, I had a hawk come and eat two of my beautiful chooks. So yeah, it's been country living at it's finest lately. I am so sorry Clyde We have also had heaps of rain, not sure if that makes a difference or not? There are so many places snakes can get water and live on this property. Why they come into the house yard I will never understand If you know where the snake is for sure, can he be relocated? You might have to jump up and down, tell them about your fears for your daughter and your dogs, animals etc. He is in your house yard after all. The wires people told me snakes love aggy's and dig/hide under them Is there any way they can be safely removed with the wires guys? Just rip it all out until they find him?? I don't know really, just my thoughts. I am so sorry for the loss of your chooks, I know how much you love them xx

This is a baby RRB for sure. Anyway, sorry I ALWAYS panic and think WTF if they are in the house yard Both dogs are fine and the snake is not injured at all. I have moved the horses. A friend has taken it away to relocate. This baby snake is very lucky my friend was here at the time, I was so freaked out and sick and tired of snakes, after hours vet costs and the risks associated, I was ready to do something drastic out of sheer frustration! Having said that I am glad I have had time to calm down and all appears to be ok. If not for full supervision in the house yard for the dogs I dare say things would have been different. I have pics of the snake and if anyone has any tips I can post pics of the house yard and paddocks. I really dont know if I can do anything more to put them off coming into the house yard

Have called my vet and am watching two of my dogs who picked up/played with a small RB (about 25 cm's maybe 30cm) in my house yard about an hour or so ago. I can not stand snakes. I spent ALL day mowing the front paddocks of my five acres yesterday, I did the back paddocks the day before. One means more and I am really upset. I posted re a RRB in my house yard a little while ago. I called everyone I could to collect the snake, no luck. He or more than likely SHE was p'd off. Perhaps because she had babies nearby in in the house yard. The stupid thing kept heading right toward the house even when I redirected at least three times. Stay aware! I have just moved the horses around to be sure, I can not and will not take the risk. Fingers crossed my two dogs will be ok, my vet is on standby. I have the culprit in a large glass jar just in case the vet needs to sight it. It was lucky I didnt kill it out of frustration! My yards and paddocks (the entire five acres) are 100% clear of any rubbish. The lawns are always very short in the house yard. The paddocks are mowed every week (appart form the paddocks the horses are in which have short, sweet pick) I rotate the horses on a weekly basis, once I move them the paddocks are mowed. What am I doing wrong?

GM if you are ever in Sydney and get a chance visit Guide Dogs in Glossodia Truly amazing kennel set up, pristine, state of the art, gorgeous gardens and buildings, really well statffed, the dogs are in brilliant condition, very, very happy and content. Every single possible need is met. They have a vet and surgery at the facility as well, they do most standard vetwork, desexing etc on site. I was blown away! Would love to be involved with setting something like that up! ETA Here is a basic link http://www.guidedogs.com.au/guide-dogs/guide-dogs-centre Hope it works!

They are very good prices :) You obviously have a great vet. I will ask my vet if there is any difference, just out of interest. Last time I had a rescue desexed the males were around $95 and females around $120 though they are rescue rates. I pay full price for my own animals.

I would love further info on this if you have it available. Keeping in mind shelters tender with a number of vets to assist in desexing at "rescue rates" with vets who generaly are going above and beyond to assist impounded shelter pets in their local area. I'm not sure what additional information I can give you. I appraoched my vet and said can and will you perform tubal ligation or vasectomy on pups and the answer was yes. My next question was at what cost and it worked out the same as desexing. I can only suggest you approach the vet that handles your desexing and ask them. Yes, though as I posted earlier shelters and pounds have tenders for a number of vets, and for very good reason. We are not dealing with one Vet, nor as a dog owner or breeder. Is your vet desexing or performing tubal litigation at rescue rates or are you paying full price?

I agree with SAS. I guess it depends on why and for what reason the dog needs to see a vet. If a dog I rescued and put into a home became unwell during "trial period" (after guidence, diet guides, on lead, off lead etc, etc, etc and 100% full support) I would probably pay. If there was neglect involved, you are in a difficult position while the dog is on trial If you are concerned and the new owners are not bidable re your concerns, I would just get the dog out. I know you very well and your outstanding ethics, you are one in a million Jane I know I am not much help, though even if you need to vent feel free to call xxx

You are in very good hands then :) I adore Underdog, they have taught me SO VERY much in working with shelter pets and my own dogs :)

I would love further info on this if you have it available. Keeping in mind shelters tender with a number of vets to assist in desexing at "rescue rates" with vets who generaly are going above and beyond to assist impounded shelter pets in their local area.

And how exactly do you suggest councils and shelters pay for vasectomies? My understanding is that the procedure is far more expensive. Shelter staff are not misguided nor amateurs, I have met the most incredible shelter staff from all over the country. Have you ever worked or volunteered in a shelter? I gather not from your comments, perhaps you should, either that or keep your stupid misguided comments to yourself! As I SAID, I have “not heard of vasectomies being widely done in dogs.”I don’t know whether it is more expensive, I can’t see why it would be, unless the alternative castration process is being performed by unqualified staff? Maybe ask a vet. Not really the point, but I should point out that a volunteer is by definition an amateur… Anybody who thinks that neutering males will control population is MISGUIDED, it simply does not work that way. If you read any of my posts, you would realise that I am vehemently opposed to irresponsible breeding. As such I fully support the mandatory sterilisation of mongrel BITCHES. In any (higher order) animal population the growth of the population is controlled by the reproducing females. That is Biology 101. Anecdotal comments about BYBs seeking entire male dogs are pointless. To be a BYB they require an entire bitch, to double their production they require a 2nd bitch, etc. Potentially a puppy farm could run a hundred bitches and still only require the occasional services of a single male dog. Shelters sterilising male dogs in the interests of population control is pointless. It’s not completely impossible, but to achieve population control we would need to reach a point where the vast majority of male dogs were sterilised. It’s pointless because if shelters could ever reach such a level, the control would long since have been applied by their sterilisation of bitches. If you have no idea and don't know the costs associated with castration v's desex why would you sprout such rubbish and attack shelter staff? A desex for a male takes ten fifteen min max, some vets working in remote areas desex males in five min. It is not an invasive procedure and the dogs recover very well. You are a prat I can think of a number of highly trained trainers, behaviourists and rescuers who volunteer on a regular basis. Vets and vet nurses also volunteer, so do groomers and an endless number of people who contribute greatly to the welfare of shelter pets. As to your comments on only desexing females and not males, pfffttt. Again, you are a prat.

What a fabulous idea! Congrats Panto Love the idea of the coats going home with new owners! The owners who we have given coats to at HP in the past are always thrilled and very grateful. One less thing to buy :)

Yes :) To be honest I don't like I dont like the idea of good, bad and ugly Getting a new family member is a valuable and worthwhile experience which can be shared. I would prefer to read about the many benefits of dog ownership and to be expected and normal development. You could not get anyone better for advice than Cosmollo by the way! Yes. Cosmolo stands out as a trainer who truly understands the needs of rescue and whose efforts have surely led to an increase in adoptions and satisfaction rate of adopters. + 1 and an inspiration for many of us :)

You don't need to be an expert, though you do need to offer really fantastic advice, suggestions and advice. That requires reasearch and or experience. Perhaps start with something that you are experienced in (your target market) and which you can offer 100% great advice on... You can always build as you reasearch, develop and grow :) DOL is a wealth of knowledge.

Yes :) To be honest I don't like I dont like the idea of good, bad and ugly Getting a new family member is a valuable and worthwhile experience which can be shared. I would prefer to read about the many benefits of dog ownership and to be expected and normal development. You could not get anyone better for advice than Cosmollo by the way!