dark angel

Thoroughly agree with you Joek.Other dogs should be of no consequence to your dog.He shouldnt be interested in dogs or people.He will accept them but not be distracted by them.We get quite a few people who are upset because we dont let our dogs "play"with each other in class or for that matter anywhere.Two puppies playing involves the same interactions as two dogs with one exerting their dominance.As puppies people think its fun ..when they are a bit older well ......

I think it just becomes automatic to give verbal praise every time. As mentioned previously giving praise every time will result in sloppy actions to commands.One cant praise/reward a sit thats slow or a drop thats sloppy,yet inadvertently praising a dog even verbally for every command done only reinforces that.It also weakens that invisible line where a slow sit a month ago is now acceptable by the owner. I know there hasnt been one mention of a correction .If a dog is taught a sit and knows that command and then he starts to become sloppy a correction is due. But then again i guess it depends what the owner wants from the dog and how fast he/she wants the sits stands drops recalls to be

Firstly he may be a bit young but then again if he can walk dragging the lead he can walk with you holding the lead. Does he come to you when you call him ? If so half your problem is solved.When he refuses to walk call his name pull him to you when he gets to you lots of praise You say he sits when you want to go ?Well go..dont wait for him.We know he can walk he just doesnt want to walk when you want him too.He will soon realize its much more pleasant walking than sitting when you take off. At least he isnt doing body rolls on the ground biting the lead etc. And finally i have never ever ever seen a dog that WONT walk on a lead or refuses to walk on one after you have "forced" it Of course ,i train on the other side of the fence but sometimes that grass has slight tinges of green too

We dont treat either of our dogs differently when training.They both only get fed at nights normally and thats it.Sometimes depending if im training a class or whatever the dogs may be tied for an hour or so in that time they interact with other dogs and people.

Clicker train him to look at you instead of the other dogs, its taken me a long long time but I have finally managed to get Mason to stop doing this, its awful I hurt my back a few times because he pulls me towards them with such force! I have also trained my dog to sit and wait until they walk past, does Archer know the wait command?? I used to get Mason to sit, ask him to wait and when he did I gave loads of yummy treats. They must learn the wait command at home though. My choice would be correct him.Let him know its unnacceptable to do it.You do it with the walking in front.Why not do it when he lunges? If he is really strong as someone else mentioned change collars for a pinch maybe? Im not trying to go against the grain ..just my suggestion

I started training in the '70's Huski in the days when your dog was obedience trained properly you threw your leash away and the dog was motivated to work for you with the only reward system being verbal praise..........we didn't use food at all. It would be foolish to suggest that yesterdays dogs couldn't work, they did brilliantly and better than some of today, no food, no clickers and no leash.............so how was that achieved back then I ask the people who claim without food, toys and clickers that you can't train a dog??? That's interesting, because I didn't see anywhere in this thread where someone said you couldn't train a dog without food, a toy & a clicker? What I have seen is people saying that using food, a toy & clicker you can train your dog positively & in some cases & in many disciplines alot better than you could train it using old fashioned methods like checkchains etc. I KNOW you can train a dog with a check chain & verbal praise to a high level of obedience because I have done it myself - twice in fact- but it doesn't mean that my dog(s) that I have now that are trained with food/toys & a clicker aren't just as well trained (in fact my kelpie is trained to a far far higher level than my 2 german shepherds ever were). If you think you can train your dog using nothing but verbal praise can I ask you to go out with your dog & teach it to walk upright on it's back legs around you in a circle at a distance of 5m from you? In fact, what about you teach him any behaviour where your dog stays on it's back legs for more than 10 seconds. When you've done that using nothing but verbal praise can you come back & let us know? And tell us how you did it & how long it took & I will tell you how I trained my dog to do it & how long it took & we can compare . Jeanne, I know, but as Dagboy will tell you I'm a stubborn, strong willed & determined old bag . mmmm tricks are one thing obedience is another But then again could be done i guess ......they get horses to prance on back legs but they use a whip. Threads gone a long way from not saying no to your dog

As no one has answered your query let me try. It seems even though the dog wants to get inside ..its the gate that excites them as they know they can get in. A quick simple fix is one of those 12 volt electric fences where the dogs wear the reciever collar.You may only have to run the wire across the ground in front of the fence.Not the whole yard. Both will soon learn... Better than dog fights especially your OWN

I have no issues with the instructors at all.I have issues with the training practice they deliver at this timefrom what ive seen and heard(still taking erny's point in my stride).Re my first post. And as a few people also have said on here the Delta type of training has not been for them.I dont think there has been a person yet that has said that they fully agree with their regime or one that has said they go to a Delta class. Yet what i find surprising the amount of people that go to them. Yes you maybe right that they are overly permissive people.Or they feel good because the way they train their dogs is a "feel good" way. Looking at the reward aspect this discussion has become very black and white.All rewards for a dog to me are equal.Wether it be toys,food or praise.I know that i dont praise my dog for everything he does well but he still does it.So i guess that not giving a treat always, is the same.Sooner or later they will get one either after the training has finished or after they have done something special. As with all learning behaviour rewards should be greatest in the learning phase.But once the dog has learnt something it doesnt neccesarily need a reward each time it does it.The motivation factor.....some dogs are motivated by the anticipation of getting a reward.Put simply, drive.Albeit prey or food.Using a tug toy is prey drive not "play" as some have mentioned Others know what is expected of them ,what is right and what is wrong.The consequences for doing a wrong thing are much a factor as for doing a right thing. As each dog is different in its personality each dogs training regime has to be tweaked to suit it.I find nothing wrong in training in drive why should there be,as i also find nothing wrong in training out of drive.Again depends on the dog. Yet i dont have my dog earn everything.If he comes to me rolls on his back and wants a belly scratch i give him one.He doesnt have to do something for it.But that doesnt mean that every time he rolls over he gets one.He doesnt have to earn to get into the car.Im quite happy to tell him car and he jumps in but again different things for different people and dogs

I agree, Lexi used to jump on me and I was worried she would knock my 3yo niece over when I came for a holiday, if she jumped on me Id push my knee out to nudge her down (so Im not coming down to her level) and tell her "no dont jump". I wasnt overly harsh on her because she has issues with submissive urinating and she doesnt need a lot of reinforcement so this was enough for her. Im glad to say she no longer jumps up on me and she didnt knock my niece over once Best thing about jumping dogs is that most do it frequently so the knee works very well and is a very quick way to stop it.And if you can pre empt the jump to a degree the knee can come up before the dog lands on you.So in reality the dog is hitting your knee rather than your kneeing your dog.It doesnt take long for them to realize.. They soon sit down to wait for their pat

Amen to that!! Honestly, I don't see how anyone could have a problem with people who choose not to be hard on their dog! You CAN get results with either method, but NOT every pet owner is a good trainer, REGARDLESS of what method they use. So why jump on the band wagon laughing at the method, when really it is the trainer that is struggling? Some dogs trained positively will go through trials keeping their 200 points, if the method didn't work how would this be possible? I don't know how Berri would have actually gone in a trial, but many of the triallers at the club were telling me I should have entered him because "he would have done well". Honestly the thought hadn't crossed my mind. He had previously passed the puppy class a year earlier, but hadn't had any training in between (I was busy having a baby and unfortunately didn't spend as much time with him during that time as I would have liked, I never even got a baby sitter until I took him back to training!). As for the class being chaos, you can get classes using all methods that are chaos, peoples timing is not good, they might not be following directions properly, their dogs are highly distracted (and yes, even dogs on check chains can get distracted!). I have good reason to only train using positives, I personally don't agree with check chains but that's my opinion, you don't see me jumping on my band wagon and saying how the classes are laughable (there's nothing funny about it) and the the dogs are out of control (which many of them are) - And it's all because of the method! I grin and bear it. But if you have options (I don't), and it really bothers you THAT much that you have to come here to get it all off your chest, then the solution is easy DON'T GO! You say you want to see other peoples methods, but you clearly aren't being open minded. Rather than focusing on the worst stories (which you get in any class, regardless of method) why not (if you really have an open mind) find the best dogs, look at the relationship they have with the owner, how focused they are and dedicated. If you're not seeing this in any of the dogs I'm sorry, you're in with a bunch of lemons! Or you're being too critical... Also, not every training group is training for trialling, many are simply to provide a better connection with the dog and aim for a good companionship. Teaching how to communicate with the dogs etc. If all the dogs are pulling on the lead when they get there perhaps the owners don't actually mind? I used to let Berri pull me into training every week, because he was having fun, and that was the only thing I care about. Now he knows that if he wants to get anywhere the golden ticket is to have a loose leash, because if that leash isn't loose we ain't moving! Why have you no options? Laughable yes ..when i see trainers treating other peoples dogs for the wrong things. There were approximately 30 dogs divided into three classes .I WAS LOOKING for a dog that had some form of obedience.Thats what i went there for to see how they train and perform. We dont train for trialling either but by geez our dogs are heeling in 2 lessons normally one.NO not with the "focus" as they do in trialling but walking calmly by your side. You say maybe the owners dont mind if they pull.They must be the only ones in the world that havent yet written on this site asking" how do i stop my dog pulling" Why shoud a dog pull at anytime ? it shouldnt... And again i will be going back just to see the progress Im not as close minded as people may think. It doesnt bother me that much that i have to vent it here.I like having discussions, i like to hear what other people think. And where a valid point of view is given i aknowledge it eg ernys post..

I beg to differ on that assumption. I train my dog differently to how I teach (I train in drive). This is not suitable for every dog nor for every dog-owner/family. I have also had the privilege of knowledge that has permitted me to train as I mean to finish, from when my boy was a pup. Many people who come to class have inadvertantly trained their dogs in unwanted behaviours making the path of training not quite as clear nor easy. I might be working on a skill that is important to me and potentially but temporarily sacrificing something else for its sake. How would you know? Also, unless you've asked the trainer, how do you know how long the trainer has had his/her dog and/or what the dog's background is? My previous (avatar) girl (bless her cotton socks) came to me as a 7yo. Fear aggressive to other dogs. Extremely fearful of people. Basic obedience skill level only. Her rehabilitation was the more important to me (and I believe, to her). She progressed a long, long way, but she was always, underneath it all, a nervous dog. Would you judge that of me? Her obedience skills improved no end, but I never did achieve a tight heel with her. For all the other things being so more important and necessary, I never really bothered with trying for a tighter heel than what she gave. Would I be judged for that too? Or would you be able to see how well she was able to cope with meeting other dogs (off or on lead) and commend me for that? But then, how could you know from whence she came? Without a bench mark to compare with you might think her ability around other dogs (which did not involve play and bore a preference, if she could have it, of being left alone by other dogs) to be somewhat less than ordinary. Would I be judged for that too, just by the glance you espy on the day/date you happened to roll up to look? Why not ask the training school instructor/manager about the methods they use throughout the levels and what the expectations can/should be? Why not speak with one of the school's members who have achieved higher learning and ask them how they found it? I'm not suggesting that you can't tell much by observing - of course you can and I think the school is being very generous in permitting you to watch so closely to the class that you are able to determine exactly what they are saying/teaching and why, and that they'd permit you to continue to visit, watch and learn without becoming a member. But I'm reading a lot of what are potential assumptions upon which judgements are being made here. Not being defensive nor aggressive, if that's how it might seem. Just playing the devil's advocate. If you came to just one or even just two of the lessons I conduct you are likely to find fault with those too. The classes I give are progressive, so without seeing every one of them or at least without some essence of explanation, you wouldn't be able to observe one class and determine where it will go from there. Nor might you even if you saw two classes. Though I dare say that what is taught in those classes is likely to make sense to you provided you understand enough of training to be able to see forward of what we are doing. Point taken Erny....

Depends on the "team", as with any method of dog training. I think you're in the wrong class, if you're not open minded about it then you might as well go somewhere else. In answer to your question (statement, whatever), it doesn't take long at all if you know what you're doing. I have had everyone at our club coming up to me simply amazed by the progress Berri made in SUCH a short period of time, I think I'd been going for 2 months when half a dozen people asked me if I was trailing, and why not. These are people who had been working their dogs with check chains for pretty much forever and Berri had over taken them. I went to a positive workshop on the weekend and the people there had so many "wow" moments as they got their dogs to do things they had never been able to do before. I don't (well, rarely - I am human after all!) say no to my dogs, we have a great relationship. They have to work for everything they want and need, food, getting in and out of the house/car, going for walks, play etc. I establish my authority over them in a way that doesn't involve saying "no", and they respect me for that. Firstly im not attending these classes just listening in to hear what they have to say and how they operate.I went to see how the "others" train dogs.Never too old to learn new things By team do you mean the training class or dog and owner? the training class in nationally accredited and they adhere to the rules of that organization so as i have seen by looking at all three classes at different places they all operate the same. You say it doesnt take long if you know what you are doing..The reason people go to dog training is because they have no idea what to do.The trainers have the ideas..not the owners.. So logically all dogs should be able to do what Berri achieved in the same amount of time? Using your method. Unless they are on check collars of course 2 months of training from scratch is VERY good to be able to trial your dog. Wow from 0-trial in 2 months is not something I have heard of before, I have been working with my dog from the day I got him and he is one year old and no where near ready to trial. I must be a shocking trainer VERY VERY bad

This i cant answer until i see further lessons and how the dogs react etc I still cant understand if a distraction is greater than the reward does it not mean that the reward pales in significance to the distraction? As i previously stated i have been to 3 DIFFERENT schools all under the same association guidlines and i have seen the same at all three.But i will wait and see. Regarding the dogs ability when completed , i believe that a trainers dog would be the guide to what can be achieved? Well after counting seven breaks from a drop not counting the ones before hand before i started counting... it leaves a lot left to be desired.Eventually the dog was tied up.This was in the hour we were there.No i am not exagerating or colouring the truth for the benifit of this thread.Each time, the owner/trainer causally walked back to the dog led it back to its spot and told it to drop then left again ...oh there was a little bit of friendly finger shaking at it then a pat. so whats in the pudding??? When a distraction is greater than the reward, that's when purely positive methods fail in my experience. The dog has to learn that there are negative consequences to an action of disobedience greater than withholding a treat. Seven breaks from a stay doesn't sound very inspiring seriously i am trying to view this method open mindedly.And trying not to repeat myself i will be going to watch the progress of these dogs for my benefit.And i will give credit due where its due and when its due.Various criterion will of course influence my judgements including time to train the dogs ,the reliability of the dogs and the type of dogs. I might even for the fun of it use a new dog at our school and compare progress..that would be interesting maybe make a chart thingy comparing.I guess there would be a lot of factors that wouldnt make it a reliable comparison but hey for the hell of it i might just do it.Geez more work lol

Depends on the "team", as with any method of dog training. I think you're in the wrong class, if you're not open minded about it then you might as well go somewhere else. In answer to your question (statement, whatever), it doesn't take long at all if you know what you're doing. I have had everyone at our club coming up to me simply amazed by the progress Berri made in SUCH a short period of time, I think I'd been going for 2 months when half a dozen people asked me if I was trailing, and why not. These are people who had been working their dogs with check chains for pretty much forever and Berri had over taken them. I went to a positive workshop on the weekend and the people there had so many "wow" moments as they got their dogs to do things they had never been able to do before. I don't (well, rarely - I am human after all!) say no to my dogs, we have a great relationship. They have to work for everything they want and need, food, getting in and out of the house/car, going for walks, play etc. I establish my authority over them in a way that doesn't involve saying "no", and they respect me for that. Firstly im not attending these classes just listening in to hear what they have to say and how they operate.I went to see how the "others" train dogs.Never too old to learn new things By team do you mean the training class or dog and owner? the training class in nationally accredited and they adhere to the rules of that organization so as i have seen by looking at all three classes at different places they all operate the same. You say it doesnt take long if you know what you are doing..The reason people go to dog training is because they have no idea what to do.The trainers have the ideas..not the owners.. So logically all dogs should be able to do what Berri achieved in the same amount of time? Using your method. Unless they are on check collars of course 2 months of training from scratch is VERY good to be able to trial your dog.

This i cant answer until i see further lessons and how the dogs react etc I still cant understand if a distraction is greater than the reward does it not mean that the reward pales in significance to the distraction? As i previously stated i have been to 3 DIFFERENT schools all under the same association guidlines and i have seen the same at all three.But i will wait and see. Regarding the dogs ability when completed , i believe that a trainers dog would be the guide to what can be achieved? Well after counting seven breaks from a drop not counting the ones before hand before i started counting... it leaves a lot left to be desired.Eventually the dog was tied up.This was in the hour we were there.No i am not exagerating or colouring the truth for the benifit of this thread.Each time, the owner/trainer causally walked back to the dog led it back to its spot and told it to drop then left again ...oh there was a little bit of friendly finger shaking at it then a pat. so whats in the pudding???

Yes they are against the application of all negatives. Thinking about the no word ive realized i dont use it either more of a ah ah The spoiling issue after asking the better half came from "the dog just sat down and expected something.when it got what it wanted if left again" I am in agreeance with your comment on learning what to do before corrections no point correcting for something the dog doesnt know.That is unfair. And yes rewards before corrections

The circle was largened (mmm is that a word?) to accomodate the dog later... If the dog went to the trainer for any reason it was rewarded after it sat.I agree i dont think the trainer should be rewarding the dog for any reason

In the last couple of weeks i have "sat in" on some dog training classes around my area just to see what others do. I went to three actually. The first thing i found surprising was that they had chairs and cute little mats for the dogs to sit on.Nice and comfy i thought.Cant see how one can train dogs sitting down but hey ill keep watching. The dogs and owners began to arrive .EVERY dog was pulling the owner by their harness not one was walking/heeling.So they sat down in a circle on the chairs (the owners that is). Most dogs had calmed down by now still a few jumps up to the owner.Then a late commer arrived.A boisterous loud large breed.Immediately the owner was told to sit out of the circle as the dog would disrupt the class.So owner and dog are now segregated from the rest of the class. Now i thought came the strange part. The trainer went on ...Here we never tell the do NO,we dont use any harsh tones in our voice and we dont use anything which will hurt the dog.If it does something we dont want it to do we ignore it or distract it.Immediately i had visions of a dog its teeth around ones ankle and ignoring it mmmmmmm as i scratched my head. But for behaviours we like, we give them a treat.This reinforces the good behaviours and the dog shouldnt do unwanted ones as it doesnt receive a treat.Mumblings of "spoilt lil Sh*ts" from my better half. Through the hour lesson i noticed a few things. Maybe im cynical ... but it seemed that some of the dogs had the owner trained? They would walk around a little then sit.... get treated.get up walk sit get treated.No command to sit just sit and get treated.It seemed like to me the dog knew that it could get treated by sitting in front of the owner on its own accord?Not because the owner told it to sit..just because it did. On recalls ...a 10 metre lead let the dog wander/run off call it and pull it back treat it.Yes i thought seems good to me ..Until the trainer/teacher walked past and instead of the dog going to the owner it went to the trainer.Dog sat in front of trainer and she treated it !Not once did this happen but numerous times.I couldnt help but chuckle at getting a treat for doing the wrong thing.I was lost. As it was getting late we thought we would amble home which brought us ohhh 15 metres from the dogs when walking.They were still doing recalls.One dog its owner holding the lead with two hands trying to stop the dog ,calling it to come to her,decided that we were more interesting that its owner it was actually pulling the owner towards us. As we left with the words ringing in our ears ..."it was unfortunate that those people walked past as you were trying to recall him" I am going back to watch the progress of this class as i am quite interested in how long and it takes dogs to be trained this way. This is more of an observation/statement rather than a question.. But the question i have is how does the dog know its done something wrong if you dont tell it? can they work out something is a no no just because they dont get a treat? Its ok to reprimand a child when it does something wrong yet not for a dog? they say they treat their dogs humanely yet us humans say no and reprimand humans yet cant to dogs seems almost a little unbalanced?

I mean that I would put her back in position and reward once she was remained in the right position for x amount of time. Ahhh clear now .. thankyou

A dog finding a correction rewarding??? Cant be doing it properly then Some dogs like attention if even if it's "negative" - the owner returning, engaging with the dog to put it back in the right position etc. If Daisy stuffs up her stays (breaks them or moves/changes position) I give her a NRM and put her back in the right position then reward. Im confused .... why would you reward her when she has stuffed up her stay ??You put her back in position after she has broken then reward her for doing what ??

A dog finding a correction rewarding??? Cant be doing it properly then

just curious how did he scare her? And another thought we always train ..stand ..sit stand ...drop never sit drop.... like some of you have mentioned its just too easy for a dog to go from a sit to a drop

Please dont take this the wrong way.But i believe far too many people put the failures of a dog eg not sitting, dropping instead of sitting, breaking stays etc on excuses of being intimidated or standing the wrong way (just the reasons Ive read).To me its plain and simple the dog hasnt been trained enough in that area.Go back to basics.Dont jump steps, go slow.Once a dog knows what it MUST do it will do it. If a dog breaks at a wait/Stay there is a reason ..THE DOG the dog doesnt know what it has to do. Not how you are standing or if you are too close.

in my opinion decreasing the time in the sit position and slowly increasing it over time helps.Also if my dog breaks (we do 20 min stays now) i will walk back to him not looking at him get him into heel position circle and sit him again.Another little trick is to walk to him tap his front paws with your feet telling him to sit and whallah he is sitting again.Its a good way to go from a drop to a sit off lead but of course you have to be close to him.