Scope

the problem i had with your post, Redhead, was where you said "i'd look around for a more positive club", suggesting to Donnalee not to go to ADT (at least that's how i interpreted it) but i think we've sorted our views out, thanks to Erny in terms of giving up on the handler before giving up on the dog i didnt mean giving up on the handler WAS giving up on the dog, because sometimes people are just f***ing idiots, and the dog could do great things if they were handled by someone else... i've watched you guys (ADT instructors) bash your heads against walls for months with handlers, only to think you've made real progress one week, and then watch things slide back to how they were the next... there's no way in hell i'd have the patience to do that... i did the NDTF course because i wanted to be a DOG trainer, not a HUMAN trainer, which is why i'll never be an obedience instructor, or really an instructor of any sort...

as always Erny you've said it so much better than i could... i'm probably thinking along similar lines to you but it just really irks me when someone tells someone else never to correct their dog... i know this hasnt exactly happened in this case, but i think you know what i mean

Redhead - just because your dog is 'a big softie', doesnt mean everyone else's is... your dog may benefit from a more positive style of training, but not everyone's will... ADT has hundreds of happy customers, and they are the ONLY obedience school in melbourne i know of that will take just about any dog... and they will sooner give up on the handler than they will on the dog... my Rotty can be VERY human agressive, and is also picky about the dogs he likes... there is no way in HELL i could take him to a 'positive only' school, he'd end up eating everyone there, me included... but ADT are quite happy for me take him along to lessons and continue to train and desensitise him, instead of alienating us and telling me he should be put down... i'm sorry to hear you had a bad experience with ADT, but just because you did, does not mean everyone will... Donnalee: good luck with it all, i may see you one tuesday night, i've only just started attending training myself but plan to drop into a few different venues from time to time... and i do hope you enjoy your time with ADT

K9: ok ok call me a wuss but i just dont want to get bitten again, once was enough... it's not like i'm wanting to go buy a whole bite-suit or anything to train him in... and i still cant find bite tags or sleeves or anything like that on your site, only collars and harness etc... either i'm looking in the wrong spot or i'm blind, i guess i think i will just stfu and stop asking questions on-line now... and wait til you get down here... and bombard you then instead :P oonga: thankyou, it was lovely to meet you & partner and little Maia, too!

K9: a glove is not bad of an idea, too much gear is a bad idea, it will give him something to bite... the bracers wont be 'too much gear', just a thick-ish layer of leather that extends up my arm, but doesnt cover as much of my hand, just the back of it... i know this leaves fingers and palm vulnerable but most of the time they're curled in a fist around a lead anyway... hell if i was wearing a long sleeve shirt you'd never even know i had them on... K9: I have them (bite tugs) in various lengths right up to full, quality ones that will last. right, please bring some with you when you come to vic, i WILL buy one of these off you, but i cant find where to order them on your site... :P and would you pls be able to bring down some muzzles that would fit a rott, too... my boy's current steel one is good, but i'd like to try some different ones on him that give his jaw more freedom inside it, and i cant find anywhere really down here that will sell decent ones to the public, they're all crappy fabric or plastic ones K9: should be dont train anything other than build drive... K9: yes, my programs will work together... K9: he makes a big effort to catch the item.... K9: the less he tries the more he captures, the more he tries the less he captures... right, i think i've got all those... K9: you will be better to wait until Im in Vic, the descriptions I would have to give you would take too long to type & can go very wrong... yeah, i'm thinking the same thing now... i'll just keep doing what i'm doing with him til you get down here, as it's slowly working... and then you can show me all the ins and outs of prey training when you're down here K9: if done correctly, he will really be able to take the arm off, this is tough work, make no mistake... Get used to it.. Protection is about him defeating an attacker, security will mean you will be mixing it up, lil teeth on your skin shouldnt be an issue... K9: Let me assure you, I have done this thousands of times.... I have all my fingers... K9: there isnt or shouldnt be any aggression in prey training.... he could probably allready take an arm off if he felt like it... lol and as i said i'm not worried about him 'mauling' me and removing bits of digits... because i know he will most likely just hold and let go again... but it still f***ing hurts, and i'm still going to try to avoid it happening again, or make sure the risk of skin being broken if it does is greatly lessened... and i know there is not meant to be any agression in prey training, but there can still be a good accidental clomping or two :P K9: remember what your training for could get you hurt much worse than an accidental prey grab, & you may need to work on those arms too... yeah, i'm well aware... i've worked security by myself for about 4yrs now... and as for the arms... i'm getting there... shaddup... :P K9: or have different commands that end in drive satisfaction eg: come = compulsion here = drive... right, gotcha, but i'd still need to teach the 'drive' commands out of drive, so he knows what the hell they mean when we start training IN drive? K9: no absolutely not... we will sort this when Im in Vic right... /me sits on hands and tries to be patient :P K9: dates being released for the Training In Drive & SAR workshop in Vic very very soon..... exxxcellent..... *rubs hands together like mr burns* myzska: yes he still does have some issues, and i know we've got a long road ahead before we can even think about starting security training... but i'm trying to find ways of accelerating things while still training him properly... prey drive sounds like it could really help us, but as i keep saying, i dont want to go starting it with only half a clue, because if i screw it up badly enough i'll lose my dog altogether, in more ways than one so i think i might just keep doing what i'm doing for now, and then tie Steve to a chair and interrogate him when he comes down to vic... nyuk nyuk nyuk >;>

yeah, but i've told him i want a spot on his workshop/seminar/whatever it turns out to be, come hell or high bloody water :P been busy this arv and gotta get ready to head out again shortly, will have a read through the rest later... thanks again for responses folks

myszka: that definitely makes sense but it just sucks now that i've finally gained my freedom and managed to join up to some clubs... and we've been getting really good with our walks... i dont want to have to confine him to the backyard again for another month or more Lablover: i'm thinking of making myself some heavy leather bracers to protect my wrists and arms, and possibly modifying them so i have protection on the back of my hands as well... i have tried to do various things in gloves before and find it really difficult... thankyou for the suggestion though i'm booked in for K9's next vic workshop... but it's still a few months away... and i want to try to keep training my boy as much as i can in the meantime... maybe i should wait til K9 comes down before i start prey training? i dont know... :/ i have done an NDTF course which has given me a lot of knowledge, but there's still so much i dont know, and i dont want to go off on a half-arsed training venture that may result in more damage than progress, especially with the dog i have, where if i screw up completely and lose his repsect i'm unlikely to ever get it back again... K9: K9: ball on a string or full length bite tug... full length bite tug it is... will have to go find out where to get them... K9: dont train him in public until he is reliable... so is that dont train prey drive in public, or dont train anything in public until i have prey drive sorted out? ie, no walks, no nothing? K9: 7 days per week, 3 times per day, 3 mins per time... Minimum 2 weeks... No other training... but i would still be doing the traingle with him, yes? K9: when done right he will earn it... Tug is required with some dogs.. Others just the capture.. i'm pretty sure he will play tug with me, but i've never tried... i dont know which he would enjoy more though, the tug or just being allowed to have the toy... and what do you mean by 'earn', when i'm just starting out? is showing interest in the toy enough for him to earn it? or must he show a LOT of interest, or what? k9: this largley depends on what you want to do... two high value items will cause mouthiness in some dogs... Run the dog in a circle until he drops the item... i eventually want an operational security/protection dog... and how do i run him in a circle if he's tethered? do i untie him, get the item back, and re-tie him? that's a fair bit of stuffing around it'd be worth it i know but it just seems silly do set him up, let him work for and get the toy (will take maybe 30secs with him to start with i reckon) and then stuff around for 5 mins getting the toy back off him, only to repeat it over again... K9: In three weeks, you will learn much before you start to develop his bite, like how not to get bit... K9: If he grabs your arm he will drop it & not maul you... yeah, but if i can avoid it i dont want to get bit at all... it's a bitch having to stop training because i'm in pain and pissing blood everywhere... i'm not worried about him 'mauling' me, but i have skinny little stick-arms and him grabbing a hold accidently is probably going to result in injury my OH will also become less and less keen on the idea of me keeping him if he bites me again... and my mother would go into hysterics if she knew the scars i allready have are from him, let alone if i get more... she may live in qld but i still have to see her every now and then, and these things dont heal overnight K9: I say "ok time to go to work", then give commands in German, including the bite command... All german commands end in drive satisfaction... Dog is turned on ititially by the "lets go to work" then retrigger drive with german commands.. so... would i have to now re-teach him everything in german? he only understands english so far... K9: if your gonna work in prey, train in prey... Nothing wrong with swapping prey item for food if you have to.. so it's ok to give him a food reward for showing interest in the toy? i seem to recall you have said that it is, but that giving the food reward wasnt actually prey drive? this is the sort of stuff i get really confused on Come to SAR workshop & you will learn handling in drive... iirc it's in sydney and i'm in melbourne thanks for your reply

i know this gets brought up a lot and there are a lot of threads on it, but goddamn it's confusing trying to sift through to find them all, and then actually find the concentration to read through them all when you know you've got pages and pages to wade through... i find i can follow threads as they progress but tend to get bogged down and sidetracked if i come onto something after it's finished... anyway, i have quite a lot of questions to ask about training my rotty... i have been doing K9's triangle of temptation with him, he had allready been taught previously to drop and look at his handler for his food, and i had continued that with him, but then started the triangle exactly as K9 has said... straight away he was dropping and looking at me for his food... and now i am working on increasing time that i can hold him... we've also been working on him having to sit and watch me before he's allowed into the car/ute... i had been doing this intermittently before but now am doing it every time... he's nowhere near as good at this as he is with his food... but is getting better... he loves to go for trips in the vehicles and has the routine with both of them well and truly down pat... and knows he's not allowed out of either without having his muzzle put on... we're also working on him having to look at me while in a sit/drop/stand before we heel off, or before he gets a release... he is getting lots of pats and praise and/or a release for his reward... and corrections for showing too much interest in whatever distraction is around... however i really want to start teaching him to work in prey drive, as now i have a car and my P's i want to start taking him out as much as i can, 3-4 nights a week if i'm able to, to various obedience clubs and training schools... the places i'm going to are happy to have him and know he has issues, and i know that he will eventually get better as he settles into the environments and learns he wont be hurt there... but i figured we could prolly move things ahead in leaps and bounds if i can focus the drive he allready has... thing is i really have no idea of what a "safe" prey toy to use for 50kg's of angry rotty would be... i dont want to lose an arm while we're working on this :P i also dont know if it would be possible to use a prey toy with a muzzle on him... at present i dont trust him in public without it... i can handle him pretty well but dont want to take the chance of him accidentally getting away from me one day... as he's not gunna let go of whatever he grabs onto... :/ we tried to fill a tennis ball with magnets with the idea of having it 'stick' onto the end of his muzzle, so he could still fetch it, but we couldnt get the tennis ball to reliable stay on the end of the muzzle, and gave up on the idea... once i've found a suitable toy i'm going to start off with K9's method of the tie-out, 3 times a day for 3 minutes... i think it was for 3 weeks? (i have been reading lots of old threads and getting confused :P ) the things i wanted to ask with that are - by letting the dog 'capture' the item, are you simply letting it take it off you, or are you playing a game of tug with it? if it is simply letting the dog take the item, how the hell do i get it off him again? would i start playing with another identical item? also, K9 says the force is strong in this one (so to speak :P ) and that he allready has a lot of drive... would i need to spend the full 3 weeks developing it? or is a shorter period acceptable? and with the prey drive 'switch on' word, as i want to eventually move to bitework etc with my boy later, should i make the prey command the same as the command i want for bitework later? or should it be something completely separate? the main problems i have here are because of my boy's muzzle... and my (completely warranted) fear of him grabbing a hold of my arm instead of his prey toy... we dont do any playing at home at all, i got the tennis ball out a few times when i first had him, but the games didnt go real far, as he'd chase his ball, spend 10mins finding it in our backyard jungle, then bring it back to me and stand beside me chewing on it for a while, before eventually dropping it... and half the time i was never quick enough to pick it up before he got it again... he does not have access to any toys in his pen, either... he is also a food nut and though i know this would be a very good reward for him i dont really want to use it as he's going to have to be at the stage one day where there is no food involved at all... and i'm guessing that starting him on it and then weaning him off it would be more of a headache than just not using it... i am rambling a lot and have prolly asked a few of these Q's before (but stupid me has gone and forgotten :P ) so sorry if i'm annoying... lol looking forward to people's responses as to how i can go about this with my boy... thanks...

couldnt tell you what the law is in WA - i know they are illegal here in vic, but i use them on my dogs anyway... my shepherd was a persistant puller... a prong collar has made SO much difference to her behaviour it is not funny... i can stop my almost 50kg rottweiler in his tracks with one (and i'm not a big person)... make sure if you're going to use one you read up on correct fitting and use, because as good a tool as they are, they can be very innefective and dangerous if not fitted correctly...

yep mate accidents happen i know what you mean about feeling awkward in public, though my circumstances are a bit different with my rotty... i was crossing a relatively busy road with him the other day, there were a lot of people about... and for some reason he hates the traffic light crossing buttons, i'm sure he'd rip the button box right off the pole if i gave him half the chance... anyway he was sitting at heel, very anxious but behaving himself... the crossing lights went green and we started to heel off... i'd taken a few steps onto the road and something triggered him and he redirected onto me... he had his muzzle on so couldnt hurt me... but here i am pushing nearly 50kg's of growling rottweiler backwards across the road... can you imagine the disgusted stares i got from that?! lol... we made it to the centre island and i sorted him out, sat him down again, and we heeled off again and he was fine... looking back it's kind of a funny situation... but at the time i could have died from shame!!!

hehehe, mothers are fun arent they... mine is coming to stay around easter and she's going to have a coronary when she meets Hudson... i can bet her first words will be "i'd feel a lot better if you got rid of that dog"... but hey she doesnt have to even go near him and i have to train and handle him and i feel confident and comfortable (even if a tad wary still) around him, so it's my choice and she can go jump :P at least your mum is considering all the options and hasnt had a screaming fit at you for suggesting things... *grin* again, good luck.. hope you can find a solution that suits your needs

i had actually let Inka know in PM they are illegal, and also given her the link to K9Force's site as i've said they may not be something she wants to use, but it's still something to think about

i will PM you with the two places i know that you can get them in aus (i am sure there are more but i only know two for sure)... just explain to your mum that they work like a mother dog would discipline a pup, and the "teeth" on the collar are the same as the teeth on a dog... put it around her leg or upper arm or something and show her it doesnt hurt... ok so they probably will hurt if you have to give your dog a huge correction, but hopefully you wouldnt have to do this too often... you can also hook your lead to both the 'live' ring and the 'dead' ring at the same time, to eliminate any slip in the collar, so it wont tighten, and the dogs still dont like pulling into the prongs.. and to help her feel better, if you're any good at sewing, you can make up a lycra sleeve or something to go over them, so they dont look as bad... or cover them up with a sock with a hole cut in the toe or something.. that also softens the effect as the prongs dont come into direct contact with the dog... in the US you can get 'comfort tips' for them, which are little rubber caps that fit over the ends of the prongs... myself i swear by the things, if used correctly and safely, they are a great training tool, especially for aggressive/hyper dogs... they may not be suitable for all dogs, but you can certainly use them without a problem on most of them... my rotty loves both his muzzle and his prong collar... he nearly knocks me over with excitement and tries to put his muzzle on himself - i'm sure he'd try to do the same with his prong collar if he could... he also shoves his head through his harness for me... i will have to get a video of it to show you one day... lol i have only had one bad experience to speak of with them, and that was when my rotty got his prong collar caught on the hook of an ocky strap (bungy cord, whatever you want to call them) that we'd left on the back of his ute crate with the hook the wrong way around... this was completely avoidable and totally our fault... no harm came to my dog as i saw straight away what had happened, and the ocky strap end that was caught on his collar had unhooked itself from the mesh side and was now stretching into the cage, so he wasnt stuck dead against the side, just being pulled towards it a bit... we had stopped within 30 seconds and i jumped straight in the back and removed the ocky strap from his collar, and then put it back on his crate with the hook the right way around so he couldnt catch on it again...

i dont know if it would help you at all, but i use prong collars on both of my dogs... the shepherd in particular used to pull like crazy... the first day i put the prong on her she ran out the front door, reached the end of the lead, stopped dead, and has not pulled since, i didnt even need to give her a pop on the prong collar at all... for ages she wouldnt even take up the slack in the lead... now she walks with it just taut... and i only need to give her a slight correction if she's stuffed up obedience-wise... and i can also give her a good strong correction which makes her stop and think if she's just lunged at someone/something, as she's not exactly social either... i can stop my rotty dead in his tracks with one, as well, and he weighs nearly 50kg... imo they're much better than a check chain as they distribute the force evenly around the dog's neck, and they're also limited-slip... you may not want to use something like this, but it's there for you to think about...

aww gee, my two know a heap... some words differ between them, but most are the same... in no specific order.... there are the standard obedience words, heel, sit, stand, drop, come (etc) and free as their release word... i dont use stay because once they're put in a position they remain in it until given another command or released, regardless of what i'm doing... Hudson knows quick! means to catch up if he's lagging... and both know that steady means to slow down and wait for me... important on steps... lol they also have the informal 'lay down'... which means they can get up again when they want, but for now (at least a minute or so) they have to lay down... usually used when they're on their beds, or if we've stopped for a while while on a walk or something... and yes they do seem to know the difference between it and the drop... a few general getting about the place words, like over, under, up, down, through... and leave it.. they both know wait, which means i dont care what you're doing, stay in that general vicinity - good when i leave them tethered for short periods, means they dont strangle themselves trying to pull against their leads trying to get somewhere, or alternately 'i'm going through this door but you're not following me'... i sometimes use "ready?" with both dogs to let them know they're about to do something... they usually dont know what at the time, but when i ask if they're ready they become more alert and pay attention to me, awaiting further instructions... they both have a 'look at me' command, for Hudson it's watch, Keish has look... they also have a word for their dinner... Hudson - pig out, Keish - eat up... Keish also knows "munch ya dinner!" if she's just standing in the kitchen/elsewhere giving me a dopey look, after i've allready let her know its ok to eat... she'll usually go back to her bowl and at least stick her nose in it, even if she doesnt actually eat any more... and Huds gets all excited when i ask "boy want his dinner??" they both also know drink means water is on offer... and will both drink out of bottles or from my camelbak (i hold the straw down and squeeze it and they'll lap at the stream, is good as Huds can get a drink with his muzzle on this way!) around the vehicles, i use up to get them both into the back of the ute... Hudson will jump straight into his crate, and Keish will put her front paws up on the edge and i'll boost her in... hop down means they can get out again, and both will jump down on their own... Hudson must first drop and get his muzzle on, Keish has to drop and be untethered, and they've both learnt the routine... Hudson knows back up! as i have to get him to move backwards so i can open/shut the crate door (yes stupid design i know)... Keish also knows "in the car" for when she's hopping into a sedan or wagon or something... and Hudson knows "guard the truck" when we leave him in the back of the ute... Hudson knows "in ya pen" for when he has to go back in his pen... he's really good about it too... will often run back in there before i actually want him to... lol he also knows "put it on" means he has to put his muzzle back on... i dont often have to actually tell him this, as he's usually knocking me over trying to shove his nose in it... the big doofus and i use "giss ya paw" when i'm putting on or taking off his harness, as i have to put his right foot through it... Keish knows a few more things, like touch, shake, speak, open & close (a drawer or door with a pull tag), "on ya bed", "where's Jeff? (OH)"... 'out' is get out of whatever room you've just walked into, and 'outside' is get completely out of the house into the back yard... she also knows "move your arse! (get out of the way!)", "you're not going anywhere!" and "F*** off!! (you're being incredibly irritating, please go away!)" hehe Keish knows a few more than Huds as she lives in the house with us, whereas Huds lives in his pen outside... she also has an 'on' word for her security training - Huds hasnt gotten that far yet...but i think i'll omit those... there's others i've surely forgotten... and yes i do tend to talk to my dogs... and i know they cue more off tone / body language... but i reckon they've got most of the above words & phrases (which are normally said more like one long word anyway) down pat...

Lablover: he is mostly a pain in situations where the mirrors are of no use to use, like backing out the driveway onto a main road... we cant see oncoming cars or pedestrians with the mirrors, the driver NEEDS to look out the back window there is foam on the ute tray in the bottom of the crate, i dont know how comfortable it would be, but the surface isnt too bad... he has a pretty good amount of grip and a bit of cushioning... i dont want him to lay down for the whole trip - only when we're reversing... and as i've allready said i think Nekhbet has nailed it with the beeper idea...

Dru, yeah, i'm female, i can easily handle my nearly 30kg shepherd on the end of her lead doing bitework, though i'm yet to actually have my rotty right out there on his harness actually pulling into it... i can however stop him with a prong collar or flat collar when he's in mid-charge after something, be it another dog he wants to play with, a human he doesnt like, or, in one instance, a 4wd going past at 60kph... O.o so i'm guessing i'll be OK with him on the harness but the first few times i work him we'll be tying him to something solid behind me, so if he happens to pull too hard for me, at least he wont get free and eat the poor decoy :p black_dog: again unfeasible, he'd get himself horrendously tangled, as he bounces back and forth from side to side and turns around many times as we travel (hell i cant even leave him on a lead in the back yard for 5mins without him getting at least one leg caught)... i can only get to him from the passenger side, and hooking him down to the driver's side would be quite difficult i think Nekhbet is on track with the reversing beeper... !

oops, i didnt see Dru's post before Nekhbet's... an agitation harness is basically just a strong comfortable harness designed for a dog that's jumping about on the end of its lead, and/or doing bitework, so the strain of the dog pulling on the lead is spread evenly across its shoulders, instead of being concentrated on their neck with a collar... not everyone uses them and it depends on the dog... i got Huds' one from the states, it's got nice wide straps, and thickly padded shoulders and chest... he hated it at first, but loves it as much as his other gear now, because he knows some or all of it means he's going somewhere! and having him in the front is just not feasible, as i cant drive on my own yet (stupid L's)... so either OH has to drive, and i'm in the passenger seat, or i'm driving and he has to be with me as passenger... so there's no room for poor Huds anyway... :P he cant go anywhere with OH as even though he tolerates him being around, and will grudgingly do obedience with him, he wont let him get him out of his pen or put his muzzle on... just cracks the shits instead...

Thankyou Nekhbet!! i think that's just what i need... the ute doesnt actually have a reversing beeper... we were going to get a manual one fitted for when we're in tight spots and cant see approaching pedestrians, etc... as most of the time they shit us off and we'd prefer not to have one... but i think i can work something out :D as for protection sport, not as such, he's going to be a security dog, working with me... we've yet to start our agitation/bite training properly as there's a few other things we need to iron out first, but he's gunna be great when i get him sorted out!

Dru, his 'chest plate' is his agitation harness... i havent had a chance to use it with him yet but that photo was taken while i was getting him used to it... he'll happily wear it now and front seat is not an option either, for various reasons

the suggestions are appreciated, it's just that unfortunately one i know doesnt work, and the other i'm not sure how i'd make it happen... the crate is a custom design, made by my father and one of his mates, as the ute was originally his, and i inherited it in june they basically had to make the door open inwards, or permanently leave one side of the ute tray down, which really isnt a good idea at all... he had a cattle dog and a staffy, i posted a thread ages ago about trying to find homes for them, they're both happy in new homes now, but they were both shortarses, and didnt get in the way when he was reversing :P

i dunno if tethering him would be an option... any eyelets put in would have to be about 2 feet back so they wouldnt get in the way of the door, which opens inwards... he needs to be able to stand and back about 1/2 way across the crate just so i can shut the door... he usually jumps in, turns around, comes back up to me so i can take his muzzle off, and then i tell him 'back up' and he moves out of the way of the door...

yeah, Huds will either drag me over or barge me out of the way to get into the ute if i'm not careful, he loves it.. but we've tried the 'hop jump' method that you mention (were actually trying to get the shep to stop barking when she was in the back too, on a chain behind the crate), and it does not work to get him to lay down... in fact he's been out on a few day 4wding trips, been bounced about over some pretty rough terrain (loved it the whole time), and still prefers to stand while the vehicle is in any sort of motion

any and all suggestions would be appreicated... my rotty rides in the back of the ute, and he loves standing up with his nose against the mesh on the sides of his cage, getting all the breeze that comes past the cab... but he rarely lays down unless he's been left to 'guard the truck' (always with shade and water)... he is a pain in the arse when trying to reverse, especially out the driveway, where the mirrors are useless for seeing oncoming traffic, and we really need to be able to look out the back window, which is almost completely covered by a large black furry body... :/ this is our ute with the crate on the back: this is the offending rotty :P he knows drop allready, but i'm not sure how i'd go about actually teaching him this without me having to ride in the back... i'm happy to ride in the back but dont want to cop the fine for it... and there's nowhere around where we can really have me in the back and do lots of reversing... :S thanks in advance!

looks like you all had a great day... iirc the next one is the 12th(?) of feb... i'd like to come along and try Keish with it... but i dunno if we'd be allowed as she isnt the friendliest of dogs... i take it the area they run is completely enclosed, with no humans in it?? if someone could let us know whether we'd be welcome or not it'd be great - i've got no qualms if they dont want human-aggressive dogs there, but if they dont mind i'd love to come down and give it a go, if i can get the day off work...