malsrock

He might not have been "vicious". Exactly!!! Sheesh. The number of ratty little dogs I have had race up to me with Shyla responsibly ON LEAD and physically RUN INTO HER and make contact with her, it asounds me. I go OFF at the owners because of the risk involved, they are idiots!!! My dog is fine yes, but what if she wasn't? What if she reacted out of fright?? Nothing angers me more and when I see offleash dogs I automatically get mad at the thought of them rushing my onleash dog. If she was to bite one in retaliation, what, she gets called dangerous? I get done in court? Yeah, epidemic proportions of them Shelle..............."where's your leash you moron" is my favorite stamp of disapproval ;) Last Sunday afternoon in a 40 minute walk we were rushed at 5 times by off leash dogs around suburban streets and pathways 3 of those occasions were kids with their dogs on the front lawn, no leashes of course and then they can't catch the dog so they go inside and leave dog racing around the street chasing me, lucky it was a little Oodle thing and not very threatening, but it's not the point. Fiona

That to me is such an unrealistic expectation - to think that all dogs could be perfectly trained and never a 'dog park incident' thread ever happen again. The world isn't perfect and neither will every dog or dog owner be (because they don't all read DOL ) Fiona, I have a dog who is not interested in other dogs. I don't take him to the dog park to play with other dogs - we go so he is exposed to lots of other dogs. That to me is the socialisation and in a less structured environment than say an obedience class. There have been dogs that have run up to him and put themselves in his face. I have seen his body language and he's not comfortable but he learns to deal with it 'politely' and I am always close by watching. I have also had dogs that have thoroughly enjoyed playing with other dogs and that is a joy to watch the dogs having so much fun. Golden Rules, I don't think it's overly difficult to train a dog to ignor other dogs, but most you would find in a dog park I doubt would have had any such training, or have probably been ecouraged to interact and play where the dog learns that any dog they see is a potential playmate. It is unrealistic to expect that dogs will all mind their business at a dog park I agree, but when a dog is conditioned to run up and greet any dog they see, there will be that one dog one day to cause them grief by doing so which is what happens. People really need to just acknowledge the risks of entering a dog park as the odds a high that one day there is bound to be a problem. I think it's more good luck than good manangement that more incidents don't happen at those places as from what I have seen sometimes is basically a free for all with dogs all over the place. Fiona

Great article. Thanks for posting the link. Me too, a great read

Hi Aidan, Socialisation to me is an awareness program for the dog to see new things and experience all different atmospheres. It's not to play with other dogs except my own or for other people to interfere with them outside of immediate family and friends. Socialisation is to expose them to all different situations but the fun and focus is derived by handler interaction which IMHO sets the foundation for a more trainable and focused dog. Fiona

Hi Poochiemama, I think we all understand how you are feeling especially if our dog gets injured and of course it's upsetting, but isn't good to thrash things around a bit to learn from others and devise a plan to best avoid a re-occurrence??? It does happen quick which is the problem and by the time you have the opportunity to react it's often too late no matter how good a handler you are or how well you are supervising your dog and the situation. If the leashed dog was known to be reactive/aggressive which the owner should know that, I personally wouldn't take a dog like that anywhere near a place where off leash dogs are expected to be, but perhaps as Aiden said, it was one off and the dog reacted out of character which dog's can do, the dog may have caught his owner with his pants down so to speak. If it was a known aggressive dog I agree that the guy shouldn't have had him there speaking responsibly. But to put things sensitively, you can never trust other dogs, even dogs you know well 100%, anything can cause a trigger reaction when dogs run and play together that could result in an aggressive response and injury. I don't think you can eliminate the potential of dog to dog attacks other than keeping a distance between them where they can't physically make contact which is difficult in an off leash dog park area. The risk is there at dog parks more so than anywhere else, and it really depends upon the assessment of risk each and every dog owner is willing to take. Fiona

I agree Kavik, I think your approach is spot on Fiona

megan The on lead dog was as under control as it could be! The off lead dog obviously wasn't under control as it was bounding over to the other dog. The on lead dog was minding its own business and would not have done anything if the off lead dog hadn't come over. I don't dispute this. I was replying to Sheridan's post to dogmad. I think that, if you hava a reactive, aggresive dog, you should avoid taking it to the park when there are lots of people about. As per my previous post, I agree that the OP should never have let her dog approach the other one. I also don't think that the onlead dog was as under control as it could be. If the dog had displayed this behaviour previously, the owner should have put a muzzle on it? Megan, I do agree with your view that the owner of a known aggressive dog should keep it away from off leash areas as I walked myself in those shoes for nearly 15 years with my old GSD. I knew with the law of averages, an unleashed dog would rush up to us and my boy would fire up so I kept him away from areas like that where dogs were expected to be running loose. Fiona

megan The on lead dog was as under control as it could be! The off lead dog obviously wasn't under control as it was bounding over to the other dog. The on lead dog was minding its own business and would not have done anything if the off lead dog hadn't come over. Correct

I disagree totally with stereotypical "socialisation" and the need for dogs to interact with others, IMHO they don't. They need to be aware of other dogs and learn to ignore them is best. When they learn the enjoyment of other dogs, is when they play up seeing one and misbehave on the leash. Friendly dogs want to play, reactive dogs want to fight and the way I like it, is a dog that doesn't care about other dogs and has no interest in them taking the sighting of other dogs in their stride. Fiona ;) They don't need to ignore them - that's what you want - and that is fine if that is the method of training you conduct. HOWEVER for a dog that has had a bad experience ceasing all socialising is NOT a good thing. Edited: When I say socialising I'm not neccessarily talking about dog parks (I'm not a fan of them personaly). I believe in neutralisation of dogs especially if you want them to work with you - BUT the average joe blogs likes their dogs to have dog mates and go to parks so if they're going to do that and don't know how to handle their dog in-case of an incccident a session with a Behaviourist would not go astray. When people start AVOIDING that is when problems start after an inccident. So....next time you wanna jump on the bandwagon can I suggest you don't make assumptions as to what you believe people meant - maybe ask a few more questions? Hi Sas, I haven't provided a view about handling a dog after a bad experience which appears the essence of you post I explained the way I like my dogs to ignor other dogs and to brutally honest, if the OP's dog was conditioned/trained as mine are, this post and others pertaining to similar incidents and circumstances wouldn't exist. Socialise, socialise, socialise, is driven home to dog owners in a cult like fashion who think they are doing the responsible thing in their dog's best interest that above all else, they must learn to play together. But my question in opposition to that is: What for and what does it achieve???. I have provided my opinion and explanation to the contrary and I would love to hear other opinions for the reasons why dogs learning to play together is a good thing and hopefully I will learn something from what others with alternate opinions can share. Fiona

unfortunately you can't control what other people do. Yoiu can only control what you do. I do go to an offleash park, but at the crack of dawn or late evening (when we have day light savings time). I don't let my dogs play with stangers, but let them play with the dogs that they know. If they tried to approach other dogs (which they generally don't) I call them and they come running back to me. If there is any dog that looks like it isn't being controlled I leave immediately - even if they are on the other side of the park. I believe dogs need off leash time. My dogs lenjoy playing with their friends. You just have to try to minimise the risks. Sheridan - on leash doesn't mean "under control". If your dog attacks another dog then it isn't under effective control.ETA: AussieLover - the OP said that the skin was broken. Even if it wasn't, just because skin isn't broken doesn't mean that an attack didn't happen. My girl attacked my boy a few months ago - it was full on and there was no denying her intention - no skin was broken because he was due for a clip and she got a good dose of fur instead. That's incorrect. A leashed dog will "ALWAYS" have priority in benefit of the doubt over an unleashed dog invading it's personal space. You will never win a court judgement with an incident involving an unleashed dog versus one restrained on a leash ;) Fiona

I could not agree with you more. Why people use dog parks is beyond my imagination. Dog Parks to me are disasters waiting to happen. To prove my point just read all about them on DOL. Yes, there are too many dog park stories for my liking too and likewise believe it is a disaster waiting to happen, totally agree it's playing roulette with your pet's safety IMHO Fiona ;) JMHO

I really can't agree with this statement. I think they are intelligent enough to tell the difference beetween when they are required to "work" and when they are allowed "playtime" with other dogs. Lots of working dogs, eg. guide dogs, assistance dogs, customs dogs are allowed to play with other dogs at dog parks, starting from a very young age and continuing throughout their working life. When they are working they know to ignore other people and dogs. I do think it is important for dog to have off lead interaction with other dogs, especially for those coming from only-dog households. Obviously, it is safer to only let them play with known dogs, but not always practical. To the OP: I am sorry your dog was attacked, it is a very scary experience but it seems your dog has suffered no lasting damage. The fact she was back playing with other dogs very quickly is a good indication that she wasn't too traumatised. Personally I wouldn't let my dog run up to an on-leash dog, as some dogs that are usually nice, become aggressive on leash. But sometimes things happen very quickly and we all make mistakes, we are only human after all. Hi Aussielover, Can you explain why you think it's important for off leash interactions with other dogs please I am looking to understand the benefits of doing so and what is achieved above a dog that isn't permitted such an experience or freedom. Thanks Fiona

Or they take dogs that are rude, boisterous, completely out of control but "friendly". I had a bad experience a few years back with a huge labrador that systematically approached & rudely challenged every single dog that entered the dog park. The owner was convinced it was being friendly since it did not bark or growl while doing this. :D Having said that, not all dog parks are created equal. I will take my dogs to offleash parks or beaches that are huge with very few dogs in, but I go to give the dog a run, not to socialise her. The little poky dog parks where you can't but help run into other dogs I avoid like the plague. I am lucky in that I have access to (and have worked to create access to) farm land & bush areas where she can run offleash unimpeded & not encounter other dogs. The rude, boisterous out of control "friendly" dogs are a danger to themselves as not very other dog appreciates that type of attention which is fair enough. Unfortunately, owners who allow their dogs to behave that way are often the off leash dogs who approach on leash dogs in that fashion and end up getting hurt. My old GSD boy was a cranky old sod who wouldn't tolorate that behaviour and would bite for sure. I often walked him muzzled, had to string him up a few times to save someone elses dog who should have been minding their own business as we were. If you allow a dog to approach others at will, one day the wrong dog will be approached with a nice old "thanks for coming" as the result IMHO, it's best for your own dog's safety and for everyone elses pleasure, not to allow that type of behaviour to develop. Fiona ;)

I disagree totally with stereotypical "socialisation" and the need for dogs to interact with others, IMHO they don't. They need to be aware of other dogs and learn to ignore them is best. When they learn the enjoyment of other dogs, is when they play up seeing one and misbehave on the leash. Friendly dogs want to play, reactive dogs want to fight and the way I like it, is a dog that doesn't care about other dogs and has no interest in them taking the sighting of other dogs in their stride. Fiona So you don't agree with letting dogs interact with their own kind? No, I don't see anything valuable in doing so. Fiona

I have read in some councils, not sure which one's they were, you had to get the 3rd dog BEFORE you could apply for the permit which meant if they knocked it back, they knew you had 3 dogs and you were forced to get rid of one I mean, how can you just get rid of one, that's stupidly so unfair when they are part of your family which is no wonder someone may look for an alternative option legal or not. Fiona

Is an excess of dogs in Victoria like having 3, something that's really policed???. I have known quite a few people in SA that have had 3 dogs, 2 registered and the 3rd unregistered and have done so for years without any dramas. Not to say this should be done, but what are odds of being caught with a 3rd dog???. Fiona

I have just this moment responded to another thread wondering why people use Pit Bull based breed for a guard dog, and here's another one dropped with a left hook Poor dog, but I like to see him drop a trained Rotty, GSD or Malinios like that

I can never understand why those type of people who want a protection dog don't have a proper trained one's, like it's not that they can't afford it I think a nice Rottweiler would be ideal for that type of job and trained accordingly, where is their logic on using a Pit Bull based cross breed thing or what ever those breeds are that seems to attract them???. Fiona

Agree with you - police don't have time to wait until a tranquiliser starts to work - they want quick and effective control. These dogs would probably not be able to be re-homed due to their upbringing. Pitty's are medium sized, but I get the American Dogs magazine and the Pitbulls that are advertised in that magazine are just amazing - they have been bred to be these enormous oversized dogs, nothing like the standards for an APBTl. Oversized heads, massive square shoulders, enormous thick necks and much taller. When you see these APBTs in the magazine you would seriously wonder if they are one and the same breed. A few years ago, a friend of our's son got into some trouble with stolen car parts or something and the police went around with a search warrant. Their Rotty was out the back and wouldn't let the police into the back shed and they were told to gather the dog up or they would shoot it I don't think a dog's well being within reason is allowed to interfere with a criminal investigation. Fiona

It's a start Erny and a good springboard now a GSDCA view has been published for them to recognise what they have just preached, firstly beginning with the recognition of Schutzhund as a breeding pre-requisite and the recognition of dogs work titled in Australia. Fiona News for you Fiona, its always been the view but up against stumbling blocks such as the ANKC , various Govt authorities, RSPCA , the anti dog lobby and the general public in general... not to mention many within our own not wanting to have much to do with it....regardless of breed. But the Schutzhund issue is for another topic as we can't lose sight of what needs to be done now re our pedigrees. You are right when you say 'it's a start'...but lets take ONE small step at a time. The next step and providing he and other ANKC people go, is to showcase as many Schutzhund dogs and owners/compeitors as possible to the ANKC Preident at the up and coming Schutzhund Trial in SA......but for now.....everyone needs to keep the pressure on all Kennel Controls re our pedigrees Schutzhund titles. I could say that is exactly true Tapferhund when the GSD clubs and GSDCA openly publish policies of an anti-Schutzhund nature and recognition of, but it is definitely a start in the right direction and the fact that the ANKC have taken up the invitation to attend the Schutzhund event in Sydney is a promising sign. Fiona ;)

Hi Stormie, Are they referring to the labelled 3 year vacc specifically when speaking of vaccinating at 3 year intervals, or is it generally using a yearly vacc every 3 years off label being what some are speaking about in the scheme of preventing the ill effects of over-vaccination??? Fiona

Hi Poochiemama, A lot of people really get into me over my thoughts on socialisation and tell me I am totally WRONG, but sometimes socialisation done incorrectly creates DA dogs I have found. In theory it's good, but some puppy classes I have seen, there are dominant puppies belting up submissive one's etc and although it looks like harmless fun, not all the puppies are happy and are beginning to act defensively to some degree. Quite a few people have done all the socialising routines to the letter, and suddenly their dog becomes reactive out of blue and they are left scratching their head why it happened. ;) There is some merit in socialising, but I don't see it as important as many people do. My Malinios is 12 months old and the only dog he runs with is my 8 year old GSD and is the only dog apart from his litter mates he has ever interacted with. He wanted to chase other dogs and play probably bite them too and bounce around like an idiot on the end of the leash when younger seeing them, but I have almost got him to the point where he ignors them now which is good for handler control. Providing other people's dogs are calm, he just walks past with a glance and seeing another dog is not an issue for him. My GSD is the same and only had my old boy as his doggy friend growing up and he just has no interest in dogs at all to create distractions for him to make training and focus difficult. A lot of the well socialised dogs you see are complete nut cases at the sight of other dogs totally out of control until they get their doggy fix and the owners can't do a thing with them with such a high distraction. I guess too, my dog's are strong dogs if they go off, pull and lunge in distraction, they pull you off your feet with a few scars to prove that ;) , but other dogs being an instinctive major distraction especially if they are conditioned to enjoy their company, is a huge training disadvantage to create handler focus and break them of the habit. So, establishing the point where they ignor other dogs competely I have found takes away the necessity to try and break the bad habits associated with over socialised excitable behaviour which is pain in the butt to fix Fiona Very well explained My dogs have always had all the socialisation they need meeting other on lead dogs at shows and obedience training but they rarely "play" with other dogs not owned by me. The puppy pre-school I use concentrates on teaching puppies to ignore other dogs and concentrate on their owner. I am happy for them to socialise on lead with another friendly dog so long as they bring their attention back to me immediately when asked. Letting them play with dogs they don't live with is a nightmare if you want reliable show or obedience dogs. The last thing you need is them wanting to run off and play when they should be concentrating. That is exactly my thoughts on the extent of socialisation that provides the good results, great post

I'm sorry your dog was hurt but the owner of the other dog wasn't semi-responsible, he was completely responsible walking along with his dog on a lead at the edge of the park, minding their own business. He wasn't at fault at all, I'm afraid you were for letting your dog run up to his without an invitation. Many otherwise friendly dogs will guard their owners from strange dogs and quite a few have no tolerance for strange dogs getting in their face. They don't go looking for trouble so they are not dog aggressive, they are just dogs being dogs. No off lead dog should ever be allowed to run up to a strange on lead dog, ever, no matter where you are. It is just asking for trouble and is completely unfair to expect all dogs to welcome the attention of strange dogs. Yes, I do agree completely dancinbcs. I posted on a another thread, my old GSD boy badly injured a small off leash dog that attcked us biting my boy on the leg which had to PTS due to the injuries my dog caused him from retaliation of the attack. Although I was legally cleared of any wrong, it was still a devistating experience that took me some time to get over. I would almost freeze at the sight of unleashed dogs approaching us afterwards transmitting my fear down the leash and the old boy would flare up even though I had muzzled him in public for some time after the attack, it still left my stomach tied in knots with paranoia about off leash dogs. Time heals this stuff, but I never wish to experience anything like that again......once is enough. Fiona

Hi Poochiemama, A lot of people really get into me over my thoughts on socialisation and tell me I am totally WRONG, but sometimes socialisation done incorrectly creates DA dogs I have found. In theory it's good, but some puppy classes I have seen, there are dominant puppies belting up submissive one's etc and although it looks like harmless fun, not all the puppies are happy and are beginning to act defensively to some degree. Quite a few people have done all the socialising routines to the letter, and suddenly their dog becomes reactive out of blue and they are left scratching their head why it happened. There is some merit in socialising, but I don't see it as important as many people do. My Malinios is 12 months old and the only dog he runs with is my 8 year old GSD and is the only dog apart from his litter mates he has ever interacted with. He wanted to chase other dogs and play probably bite them too and bounce around like an idiot on the end of the leash when younger seeing them, but I have almost got him to the point where he ignors them now which is good for handler control. Providing other people's dogs are calm, he just walks past with a glance and seeing another dog is not an issue for him. My GSD is the same and only had my old boy as his doggy friend growing up and he just has no interest in dogs at all to create distractions for him to make training and focus difficult. A lot of the well socialised dogs you see are complete nut cases at the sight of other dogs totally out of control until they get their doggy fix and the owners can't do a thing with them with such a high distraction. I guess too, my dog's are strong dogs if they go off, pull and lunge in distraction, they pull you off your feet with a few scars to prove that , but other dogs being an instinctive major distraction especially if they are conditioned to enjoy their company, is a huge training disadvantage to create handler focus and break them of the habit. So, establishing the point where they ignor other dogs competely I have found takes away the necessity to try and break the bad habits associated with over socialised excitable behaviour which is pain in the butt to fix Fiona ;)

I disagree totally with stereotypical "socialisation" and the need for dogs to interact with others, IMHO they don't. They need to be aware of other dogs and learn to ignore them is best. When they learn the enjoyment of other dogs, is when they play up seeing one and misbehave on the leash. Friendly dogs want to play, reactive dogs want to fight and the way I like it, is a dog that doesn't care about other dogs and has no interest in them taking the sighting of other dogs in their stride. Fiona