malsrock

Our vet told us that they were aware of the 3 year protocol on the basis of the latest research, BUT to do so is off label and contrary to the vaccine companies guidelines and should a dog contract a disease that the vaccination covers, they could be held liable for malpractice??? Fiona

Great post and video Shell, well done Kind of blows the purely positive theory about using aversives on a fearful dog Fiona

Leash pops when a dog lunges to the end of the leash in that example isn't the correct way to use the check chain and the reason why it didn't work IMHO. The moment the dog moves forward in reaction to seeing another dog, the leash is lifted straight up to administer and air block which stops them Fiona

Couple of reasons, I think. Firstly IMO it's a bit dodgy recommending someone go off & experiment with check collars over the internet (I've seen people do some really dumb things with check chains before they learn how & when to correct - the most common mistake I've seen is people correcting inconsistently or at the wrong time which both confuses the crap out of the dog & must be stressful for it). & as I'm sure you've picked up some people won't recommend this method in any situation since they prefer to train (and recommend) positive only methods. Having said that, if you have someone to show you how to use a check chain (or martingale or PP collar) properly to stop pulling, it works really well in my experience. It's a quick fix - which isn't always a bad thing. Yeah, it's probably more appropriate to have the check chain method taught correctly in person by a competent trainer........I agree on that aspect, it's just the large amount of dogs I see taking their owners for a walk in recent years and often it's hard to see a dog walking properly. People I bump into around our area on walks that you get know and have a brief chat with over 3 or 4 years I have noticed, are still on head collars and harnessess and the dogs are still all over the place despite having been to training classes and some are still in training with only marginal improvement to how they were 2 years ago when first meeting them???. I met a woman today with a GSD on a head collar who recommended that I should use one on my Mal, she said, they were terrific and had used one for 4 years as her dog was bouncing around on the end of the leash trying to greet mine. She was telling me how the flat collar on my Mal can collapse his wind pipe and her trainer only uses the head collar now for that reason :p Considering she had used a head collar for 4 years and her dog was seriously all over the place and a shocking leash walker, it left me somewhat in a head scratch Fiona

A dog with high genetic prey drive will chase anything and try and capture it. A highly prey driven dog in your example when picking up a prey item off the ground, the dog will jump at you to get it, may even bite your hands to get the item if they are in the way It's not really a drive you need to tempt them with to do, they just chase and capture as part of their make up. My working line Malinois will chase and retrieve a ball for as long as you throw it or until he is exhausted, infact, you have to put the ball away otherwise he drives you nuts with it. If you bring out the tug and he see's it, he will leap at it with intensity before you have time to hold it properly for him to grab and will bite it hard too. They are so intense on a tug toy, you can lift them off the ground and swing the dog around and they won't let go until trained to do so. The harder you try and pull a tug from their mouth, the harder they hang on to it :p It's quite an extreme eye opening experience to play with a high prey driven working dog compared with an average ball motivated pet. Fiona

I agree with that strongly. When I was looking for my current dog (SAR trainee) I had a couple of breeds in mind, & I approached a lot of breeders & owners, asking for recommendations. I considered a bull breed for a while for several reasons, and the other varieties of belgian, but I couldn't find a single appropriate breeder. Turns out that most breeders just don't understand the difference between good working temperament & an active pet. And how could you, I guess, if you'd never worked a dog before? For example I talked to many SL breeders who assured me their dogs would be suitable for a working career, despite having no/few dogsport or working titles in their pedigrees, since apparently they just loved to play with tennis balls - a little bit different to what I was after. :p That's a very good point you have raised Staranais, I have experienced that myself with some confusion looking for a pup of working potential. I actually have more respect for a breeder who say's they don't know or their dog's perhaps may not be suitable, but I have spoken with many who claim their dogs in both show and working lines are terrific candidates although a working title hasn't existed in their pedigrees or progeny for 5 or 6 generations To take a punt and purchase a pup from a breeder who's never worked a dog to determine for themselves the traits required I think is a huge gamble with a high potential for disappointment. fiona

working in prey drive can be pressure for a dog. Especially when people build it more and more, the dog can't balance and BANG you end up with a lunatic. Yes training does have a part to do with it but if the nerve isnt there to help the dog through it then you have a problem. It's seen also in some Australian bred Malinois, bred for super high drive without the nerve to hold it and you just end up with a nut that is a PITA to train. I was taught to train my Mal in prey drive only, when young, on the understanding that training in prey drive didn't pressure the dog and to avoid training in defence at all costs intially to avoid pressure too early???. I guess there can be training extremes to drive building, but I had never heard of prey drive training creating pressure on the dog until you mentioned it in relation to nerve strength...........but thanks for the clarification, I understand what you mean Fiona :p

Back in 1978, I had terrible trouble teaching my dog to loose leash walk and went to training classes to learn how to do it which was done on a leash and check chain back then being the standard practice where a perfect loose leash walk can be achieved easily in a couple of sessions. There are many threads I have read about training the loose leash walk, but why doesn't anyone ever recommend the check chain and a couple of good corrections I seriously believe that most of the pulling issues I have read about here could be fixed in less than an hour or greatly improved teaching the dog that there is a consequence to it's actions. I can't see that newer supposedly more humane methods works particularly well and ends up with use of head collars and harnesses to manage the behaviour instead of fixing it???. Fiona

Are you sure that's a nerve related behaviour Nek???, Nerve as I understand it is determined by the rate of recovery from a bad experience or pain threshhold and ability to work under pressure. My Mal was a cronic pork chop performer in prey drive especially when back tied...........I know where you are coming from in the behaviour described, but lack of drive containment off the top of my head I would say is more a training issue than nerve strength, or a handler allowing the behaviour which the dog has learned yip, yap squawk achieves the reward perhaps??? Fiona

Hi RKD92, Working and showline GSD's are bred for a different purpose based upon a different priority platform for what the progeny needs to achieve. To breed a litter with working potential, you don't use a "dead horse" dam in hope that a more driven sire will prop up the litter, but in a show breeding, the "dead horse" dam may have a conformation trait that is highly desirable to improve the breeders conformation lines and is bred for that purpose. A working line breeder wouldn't use that dam regardless of her conformation as the likelihood of producing low drive progeny is a major undesirable trait in a working litter as an example. It's not about which line is better, it's about choosing the line most suitable for what you want to achieve with your dog. You don't buy a working line dog for a showing career or a show line dog for Schutzhund competition if you want best opportunity to win.....horses for courses The same applies with goals to win in Schutzhund you wouldn't use a bitch by choice either as it's more likely to attain higher levels of social aggression from a male which will generally produce higher scores in protection phase. There are exceptions to the rule, but the sporting basics are well tried and tested by the people who do win on a regular basis...........us amateur dog men and women don't need to try and re-invent the wheel Regarding hip and elbow scores, working line breeders need their dogs to have physical performance and is no advantage for an ethical working breeder to produce progeny with poor joints as the deficiency will show up much faster working a dog and as someone else mentioned is complete nonesense. Show line dogs have no physical advantage bodily over a working line dog that is bred for speed, agility and manouverablilty, in fact many show line dogs are heavy and cumbersome in comparison especially the large show line males. The point of my post is that we need to keep in perspective what the show and working lines are bred for as the show lines are equally as disadvantaged on the sporting field as a working line dog is disadvantged in the show ring which is simply as I mentioned before.........horses for courses Good luck with your girl RKD92, I wish you well Fiona

yeah agreed totally its not the dogs its the "stupid irrisponsible owners" and people that breed already unsocial dogs its just very unfortunate they they end up in the wrong hands any dog from any certain breed can fight if lead into that path its just unfortunate that these APBT and Staffy's etc that have this bad reputation and misconception because of irrisponsible breeders and owners and the dog gets the blame in every situation i think its totally unfair on the dog Dogs need to have the genetic ability to fight and not every dog has that. The GSD is a good example taken down the path purposely trained in protection, some possess the genetic ability and others would rather run away than fight. It's a total myth in my experience with working breeds that "any" dog can be taken down a fighting path IMHO I had an interesting conversation with a guy one day quite a few years ago now who had this lovely browny coloured dog that gave me big sloppy kisses and rolled over for a belly rub. I didn't know what breed she was until he told me she was a Pit Bull (APBT). He went on to tell me how he and his wife had bred Pit Bull's for many years and how nice his dog was, but he also told me about others he had bred that in his words were "mongrels of things" meaning highly aggressive and difficult to handle. He told me that aggression in the APBT depended on the lines and the individual dog, but he made no aplologies telling me that some APBT's are highly dangerous and unless going to an experienced home, are best PTS???. Fiona

That is the way as I understand it, yes. I am quite careful about it. Generally speaking, the only time I would ever let a puppy or young, inexperienced dog make a mistake that is going to earn them something more than a growl or snap is if I have seen the dog in question escalate before and know they will be thoroughly appropriate. And there are no random dogs around that I don't know very well, because funny things can happen. I like them to mix with dogs that escalate slowly and steadily so that I have ample time to act if I need to and my dog gets a chance or two to modify their behaviour. I don't let them pester dogs I don't know well. My dogs get snapped at and whatever they end up doing, whether it's appease or move away, or whatever else, they are back to normal behaviour a moment later and that's how it should be in my mind. They should care if they get the canine equivalent of being shouted at, but they shouldn't completely shut down and be thoroughly traumatised by it. They should be able to learn from it and then move on. Every interaction is different, and what I let Kivi do when he was a puppy is different to what I let Erik do. I just err on the side of caution a lot. I find if I do that I am rarely surprised in a bad way. I see lots of people just kinda toss their dogs in and let them work it out for themselves. Most of them seem to come through it having learnt how to talk dog very well, but I guess some end up being overly protective of their personal space. It interests me that they often seem to learn who to avoid and what to do to stay out of trouble in a tense situation without getting nailed. Sometimes I wonder just where Kivi learnt what he appears to have learnt. How does he know to avoid a dog that ends up picking fights when he's never actually been in a real fight? My last dog was still acting in novel ways towards strange dogs when she was 12 years old. I guess it's not just learning what to do, but learning patterns, context, and variations. It is beautiful to watch a native at it. I am not sure if Erik will ever be as flexible as Kivi is, but if he isn't I guess that just means I have to be more vigilant and step in more often. I agree with you perceptions Corvus, I think you are spot on. Dog's shutting down to a growl and snap from another IMHO depends the individual nerve strength of the dog how quickly they recover. I have an 8 year old GSD and a 12 month old Malinois and the pup has been chastised many times when he gets too silly in play. He backs off instantly if old Sammy gets cranky, but he will dance around and half the time have another go to try one on. It happened once when Sam got really cranky, chased the pup, bailed him up against the fence, growled and showed his teeth and the pup pee'd in submission, he was about 10 months old then. Sam saunted off and the pup although wary sprung back out unscathed, but the line it appears was drawn. They play hard together, but there is a particular growl I can clearly notice when the pup will back out of the game. Obviously I control the play and watch closely for any signs of the pup wanting to challenge Sammy with dominant aggression which could happen down the track and have trained and work with a "enough" command which is working well if things get a bit over boisterious I will settle it down. I think if the dogs who interact together are temperament and nerve stable things become a self learning exercise quite safely, but it's when they encounter dogs of some instability and over reactivity is when it can go pear shaped. Fiona

Hi Corvus I am interested to know how they learn to discriminate between dogs, I know what you mean in viewing that behaviour, but don't they generally learn from aversive experiences initially which teaches them to understand other dog's body language???. In other words, being snapped at, growled at or dominantly challenged by other dogs is they way i am thinking that they learn their descrimination skills???. Fiona

If that's the case the dog was doing EXACTLY what it has been trained to do! If anything the Officers in Charge should receive a repremand for not follow procedures correctly by the sounds of things. Someone should have been controlling the entrance to the house. I agree, definitely a procedure issue there I would think. A couple of police officers I know told me that when the K9 unit has been called to a job, there is a procedure to alert the other officers attending that a dog has been deployed off leash, as the police dog can apprehend another officer if they get in it's way which is understandable???. Fiona

I don't think police dogs come under the companion animal laws as a pet does in regard to attacks. If a police officer discharges a gun incorrectly, they don't destroy the gun in the officers error, the officer in control of the gun faces the music. I guess a dog incident would be much the same??? Fiona

There we a few large bags of RC GSD24 at one of the Petstock stores in SA this morning I noticed??? Fiona

I completely and utterly agree with this post. Being on Dol and hearing of so many "reactive" dogs I NEVER let my dogs run up to any strange dog, to say hello, bounce or otherwise. BUT as far as good breeding and good temperaments go I expect my dogs to be able to handle a dog bouncing up to them and not lose the plot. My breeder would be deeply concerned if one of the dogs she sold me bit another dog simply because it bounced up to her/him. I do not let my dogs get harassed or heckled in the dog park. They are always supervised and I step in to protect them if they are being hassled, however I expect them to be tolerant enough not to bite another dog just because it happens to be rude. I too am sick of people acting like their DA/"reactive" dog is perfectly normal! Not all dogs found at the dog park to contend with will be of stable breedings with quality temperaments Bub, which is the problem when you can't prevent those dogs and their owners from entering the park and mingling with others??? Fiona

I would definitely re-think any situation if my dogs were injured and try and work how I can lessen the risk in the future. The dog park routine is fine for a few known friendly and non reactive dogs to zoom around with each and play if you and your dog enjoy that, BUT it's the other element that dog parks also attract which are of an unknown quantity often determined when it's too late to respond and a dog has already been injured. If I was in your shoes Poochiemama, I think I would say phewww, I was lucky and my dog's injuries could have been worse and from now on, I will make sure that she never suffers like that again???. Fiona

You are missing the point Poochiemama, it's too late to argue about who is right or wrong when your dog has an eye missing or half it's snout bitten off and right or wrong won't undo the trauma that either you and your dog has suffered. You WILL encounter aggressive dogs in dog parks along with the irresponsible owners who take them there which is a problem beyond your control. There are two options..........keep going to dog parks and take a punt that your dog will be safe, or make alternative arrangements for exercising your dog somewhere else that is safer. Your dog will be far happier long term lacking in the stereotypical socialisation of dog parks, than having the fun of doing so and the trauma of having half it's face ripped off in the process. Fiona

Hi Deelee, My crash hat is on because people are going to hit me over the head from my reply............I do have a hard head though IMHO and I am speaking from working breed experience, I would look for assistance with a trainer who will use negative reinforcement methods where necessary, a trainer with wide visual scope and a large box of tricks. A trainer using only treats and clickers with the behaviour you have described will take for ever to reach the level of behaviour and control that you are looking to achieve. Fiona :D

Nice idea but IMO impossible! Hence why I don't go to most dog parks. There will always be people who take aggressive dogs to dog parks. There will always be people who let dogs without an effective recall run off leash. There will always be people who don't supervise their dogs properly. There will always be people who expect every dog in the park to be completely non-reactive. There will always be people at the park who can't read dog body language and have no idea what appropriate play is. Edited to add: and all these people will probably always continue to blame each other for incidents in the dog park. That's an excellent summary of the situation Staranais and is really the cold hard facts of the dog park situation unfortunately, and people just have to assess for themselves if it's right for them. The problem is, you can't fix it and it's simply the way it is. Fiona

Ok, from another perspective and taking everything discussed into account, how can the dog park situation be fixed so that every dog who enters is safe??? What's the plan of action in an area that can be accessed freely by anyone??? Fiona

I totally agree Dogmad, but we can't control who visits a dog park and what type of dog will be taken there and sure enough one day, someone's dog will cop a flogging. My point is, my dog will never cop one in a dog park because I don't visit dog parks to expose my dogs to risks of high probability. Fiona

There is a HUGE difference between a dog politely approaching another one and sniffing it and a dog rushing up to another dog, getting in its face, completely disregarding the other dogs body language, and being plain rude. I see this with labs ALL the time, and no its not just restricted to that breed, but if I hear one more person with an over the top, rude dog who allows it to rush up and get in the face of whatever dog it pleases, tell me their dog is "just being friendly and saying hello" I will have to shoot someone I feel the same way Huski

Poochiemama, Seriously, yes being attacked can traumatise your dog, it can cause a dog to develop dog aggression or flight behaviour and destabilise their nerve platform and if you are happy to expose your dog to those possibilities, it's your dog, your call. How best to break up a dog fight IMHO is closing the gate after the horse has bolted and prevention is better than cure. Personally, I would prefer to learn how to avoid dog fights than how to break them up, but that is just my opinion, some will agree and some won't Fiona