malsrock

Thanks. I'm hearing Kathy's name crop up a fair bit today. I have phoned 5 trainers (including Kathy K-P) and a Veterinary Behaviourist. I spoke to the VB, explained a bit, she's sending me a questionnaire and said she can see me when I'm in Perth. Two trainers have got back to me. One of them is Danielle Brueschke, who coincidentally apprenticed under Kathy K-P. She says that her and Kathy are "two of the few positive trainers / behaviour consultants who work with aggressive dogs in WA". So I think I'll end up choosing either Danielle or Kathy, but which one?? Obviously Kathy must be more experienced, so might wait till she gets back to me. In the meantime, I took Rocky down the beach this evening on a 20m long line. There were not supposed to be other dogs around, or that was the plan anyway! We got out of the car and I saw a neighbour with her Golden Retriever about 25m away, walking towards us. Then Rocky saw them, just as I was trying to get his attention. He was aroused, tail up, ears forward, etc. I called him to me and pulled on his Gentle Leader slightly. He gave a bit of a "Huh" (rather than a "woof") to the dog, and came with me, but still excited and looking behind at the dog. I put him in a sit and c/t for eye contact. Didn't get too much eye contact though, as he was staring at the dog who had, by now, passed us and was walking away. Close call, cos I don't want him to PRACTICE an aggressive reaction. Played fetch in and out of the water on the (now deserted) beach, with short breaks for c/t eye contact. You need a proper K9 trainer RockDog IMHO Fiona

So you're happy with this dog being strung up on a gentle leader then. In addition to almost guaranteeing that the damn thing will come off, it wrenches the dog's head around to the point of potential spinal injury and places the handlers arm right next to the dog's jaw. Houston we have a potential for injury to the dog/redirected aggression and/or a loose dog. Oops. Sadly, she's getting a lot less than that from you. That's being silly now Poodlefan, I am happy to engage in constructive discussion........but to suggest I would correct a dog on Gentle Leader is laughable. I have provided my view, other people have provided theirs and the OP can make their own decision what fits best Fiona :D

That's right, no "check".. a full stringing up. Of course all of this is crystal clear from the practical demonstration you provided NOT. That would take more than a bit of good timing to be effective don't you think??? And more than a little knowledge of dog body language. All of which you've assumed the OP has, based on your experience in the breed. It also requires another person with the small dog to act as guinea pig OR for the handler to create this situations with hapless members of the public and their dogs. And all without any professional supervison, gear checks or a muzzle. Wonderful. :D Based on your GSD knowledge you also know that THIS handler is phyically capable of this manoevre AND that the dog is routinely walked on a suitable collar. For all you ACTUALLY know Malsrock, this dog could be walked on a halti (and indeed it IS) and the handler might be under 5 feet tall with chronic back pain. Actually I have. Fortunately for me, I had a hell of a lot more common sense than to take the advice on someone with no verifiable credentials holding forth on an internet forum without ever having met me me OR my dog. I sought professional help for a dog aggressive adolescent and I got what I needed. What worries me is that some poor individual is going to take you at your word and lose half their face as a result. Like the handler of the dog I mentioned earlier in the thread who snatched his GSD's leash from me when I had the dog on its hind legs and got a very nasty bite as result. Transferred aggression is a bitch. You just have to get into a pissing contest with anyone who disagrees with you. I have absolutely no doubt that you have more experience with dog aggressive dogs, given that you state you have 20 years experience with this breed and you appear to regard such behaviour as perfectly normal. God help the GSD if that's true I train pet dogs and owners (not professionally). What becomes apparent pretty quickly is that confidence and handling skills vary widely. I also know that handlers for the most part don't give a toss what I can do with their dogs or indeed what I can do with mine. They want me to teach them how to handle their dogs themselves. Don't make a total fool of yourself by suggesting that any aggression issue can be successfully resolved without factoring the HANDLER'S capability and understanding into the resolution process. I'll say it again. When people come here asking for advice on aggression, they don't need to know what you can do or what I can do. They need to know where to get help from someone who can show THEM what to do safely. What you can or cannot do with a dog and how well you can train them won't matter a damn if someone follows your advice and gets hurt. When you analyse a dog and provide advice blind, that's a real possiblity. So again I say. Please don't give this kind of advice. You're shooting blind down an alley and you have no bloody idea of who is standing in it. Poodlefan, You are entitled to your opinion as I am of mine. The difference is, bearing in mind that the OP has provided a series of examples where the dog has lunged to engage another dog and she clearly doesn't know how to stop the dog's attack. An air block acts an emergency brake and for the sake of the other dog's saftey an air block WILL stop the engagement in the moment and save the other (small) dog a potential injury or perhaps death. If you have a dog that can lunge in aggression, you have to know and be capable of stopping an engagement and controlling the dog if things turn pear shape. I have known several strong GSD's that can physically drag their owners along in an aggression focus which is a very scary situation to endure especially not having a clue how to stop the dog's forward motion and desire to attack. Anyone who has a dog that can be aggressive, need to learn and know how to stop a reaction if one occurs, otherwise the dog ends up in the backyard rotting away as no one has confidence in their ability to handle it. There is no "pissing contest" on my part, I have merely stated my experience level owning and training aggressive dogs, GSD's in particular, and for the record, I don't provide any advice in behavioural areas where I have achieved no competence or have no experience for the sake of writing a post. Fiona

I totally agree again - it is not about whether corrections should or shouldn't be used, but the fact it is not safe to recommend any real method of dealing with this dog's aggression without seeing it. Despite what anyone may infer, no one here knows what method would be best for this dog without seeing it. No one here is a magician, no one can diagnose an aggression problem over the internet without even seeing the dog first. Dog training doesn't begin and finish in Australia. There are MANY working dog trainers who successfully provide training advice worldwide without seeing the dog, that philosophy is absolute nonesense and is merely a protocol adopted by some that probably didn't have the confidence to understand the behaviour and required more time to work it out. If the OP asked that question on a worldwide working dog forum, she would have got video reponses what to do along with the advise of many very competent and respected people. You don't have to always see the dog and in this case, the OP provided enough information in a very detailed description of the dog's behaviour to understand exactly what the dog is doing Fiona

Last time I checked, a puppy "learning to be tough" and a "hardened aggressor" bite remarkably similarly. In recent weeks there have been one of two people dispensing "correct 'em hard' advice about dealing with aggresson on this forum with apparent disregard to the potential danger that may place a handler in. Please stop it. No professional worth their salt would do it. A dog's behavior cannot be explained by breed alone and in my opinion what you are doing is downright dangerous. Aggression is NOT breed specific behaviour. If it was, then breed specific legislation might actually be worthwhile. As I posted, I have seen a GSD turn on its handler when checked off a dog. Not every dog will tolerate being jerked around and your advice could get someone seriously hurt. I didn't recommend a "check" Poodlefan, that's why they redirect because the corrrection is half hearted, more an agitation. Dog's can't redirect during an air block and is the exact correction or saftey measure if you like for a handler aggressive dog that comes back up the leash. I am intersted to know if you have ever trained and handled an aggressive dog Fiona :D

I wouldn't expect you to understand where I am coming from which only experience provides that wisdom. You can and I do dish out advice with breed specific behaviour that I am extremely familiar with and the OP's situation is one of those. Timing of the correction was detailed more than once of you read my posts properly. If you believe that a 12 month old intact male GSD may have a medical condition causing this behaviour is a testament of someone lacking breed knowledge and experience to suggest something so left of centre It's virtually still a puppy learning how to be tough, not a hardened aggressor that everyone wants to quiver in their boots over, I don't need to see the dog, it's common adolecent GSD behaviour, albiet can escalate to serious aggression over the next 6 months or so if allowed to continue. Fiona :p

Are you for real? I would be seriously careful about ever recommending negative reinforcement in a situation like this where all you have is what the owner has said. You don't know why the dog is doing it and what reaction that dog will have to a correction of such force. Recommending anyone to hang a dog in the air by their lead is seriously not on! Hi Lovemesideways, This situation the OP has asked for help with is a serious one. When you reach the stage of aggression when you are pulling dogs apart to stop a fight especially a large dog with traits to have a real go against a small dog that can be easily killed with one decent chomp, the situation needs to be dealt with fast, and what I have recommended will fix it. In fact, a couple of air blocks is usually enough to stop an aggressive lunger altogether and provide a calmer and safer environment to work with other methods of redirection and conditioning. I respect the opinions of people who have no experience dealing with the effects of aggression simply because they wouldn't know what to do or how to apply an emergency proceedure other than rushing a dog to the vets with pieces missing off it which is often then too late, or taking the aggressive dog to the vets for a one way trip because they can't handle it, or they employ the assistance of trainers who can't handle it either. It's not until you are faced with aggression, living with it and absorbing the anxiety that comes with it, can anyone really understand what it feels like and until you have experienced this for yourself and rehabilitated this behaviour successfully as I have many times over, your opinion of the situation from my perspective has no relevence whatsoever. We can all respond with geez RockDog, that's really nasty and we feel for you and get a behaviourist in which is no help to her as we speak, I have layed it on the line with a process that will stop the dog's aggression instantly and allow her to control the situation until she has the opportunity to seek professional help and I make no apologies for that Fiona Nice that you assume I have no experience. Well assume what you will. I'm not saying hanging a dog wouldn't be effective, so is kicking a dog when they're bad you must adore Brad Pattison then! I still don't think you see the seriousness of recommending responses like that over the internet. Don't you have Any idea what a wrongly timed correction can do to an aggressive dog? Go read click to calm, has a good description of what happened to the writers dog after being send to a trainer who hung the dog on a prong collar. Dog went from bad to freaking insane. You have literally no idea why this dog is reacting this way, yes we can assume based on what's been written, but geez how do you know the dog doesn't have a medical issue? Or there is just some random factor that the owner hasn't realised? You don't, because, you, haven't, met, the, dog. I have no problem using corrections if they're appropriate to a situation. Recommending someone hang a dog by a lead and it will magically fix every problem is ridiculous and incredibly dangerous. Saying, hey make sure you find a trainer that has experience with aggression, keep your dog away from small dogs. Make sure the interactions are done with a muzzle whilst on lead at all times untill you can sort it out because a GSDs bite can kill a little dog no problem. I don't consider that pussy footing around, I call it the safest response you can give to something like this over the internet. Guess I just care more that the OP gets actual help and doesn't come back saying "Hey I did the hanging thing, my dog freaked out and latched onto my arm. I had to get 25 stitches and he got put down. Thanks." That one, thats one I've heard, and seen the scar. Luckily they came to one of my trainer friends with their next dog when it started going to same route as the first and almost killed their cat. Lovemesideways, After 20 years experience owning, training and handling dogs of genetic aggression and successfully rehabilitating dogs of this nature into worthy pets, you do tend to learn something about the behaviour and how to manage it through practical experience which is one of my specialty interests. My backyard has a working line GSD and Belgian Malinois as part of the scenery when speaking of experience does yours???. Fiona

Obviously, your relative with the nasty Rottweiler has no control over his dog in the home. No dog of mine ever goes near the door when someone's there because that is MY door, MY house and I decide who comes and goes. Are you saying if this person with the Rotty had a friendly Golden Retriever the Goldie would act exactly as the Rotty does in this persons ownership...........CRAP :D Fiona

Excellent, more should be incorporating it into their training rountines IMHO :D

that I definately agree with Yeah, if you want to cover "all" possible outcomes I agree Nekhbet, but air blocking isn't a new technique and is generally a bit over dramatised in the "what if's"???. The only dog I have ever had re-direct was a conditioned handler aggressive who I air blocked for trying to chew my arm off. He came back at me and the learning curve if you bite me you die routine, he settled nicely, even got a sloppy kiss in the end :D A dog may re-direct at a trainer being a person they don't know well, but do I think Rocky would re-direct at his owner?????.........No, that's why I prefer the owner to do it, not me as the inclination to become aggressive lessens with familiarity as we know. They will pop eye vessells at near death, but hey, we are just getting them to think about breathing to get their mind off the aggression target, not a full Koehler style hang up on a rope and pulley, same goes for crushing the throat. The DD collar is good once you stop the lunging, but in the lunging process, they spring up on their back legs anyway and the choking effect of a DD is worse I think considering they are bouncing around and out of control at that point. I usually use a flat collar at that stage, then use a DD or prong even a check chain once the actual lunging is controlled. I prefer a command in conjunction, not a banshee scream in hysterics, but just a firm NO, because as you wean them off correction and they focus with the "hairy eyeball" as you progress through training out the beahviour, I will leash pop and command NO when they look to have some intent. I have found then it can be weaned down to just a NO or verbal command to re-gain their attention when they focus upon another dog or whatever???. I have done it both with a command and silent, but with aggression I prefer a command and the dog to learn that I control aggressive responses and to learn that taking it upon yourself to react aggressively you are going to cop one and a better one than you can give. Aggression has such a high potential to land you in the poop, loose your dog over it and the dog hurt someone and is a serious issue that getting wrong can have a devistating effect. It's not like a training error that the dancing doggy fluffed a cue bad luck sort of thing, if it fluffs an aggression based situation, it could nail someone or worse Aggression IMHO has a fine tolerance that you can't afford to get it wrong or fail to address it in the seriousness that it deserves;) There are different ways to address these things, but that's basically the way I have had good success and I am sure I could streamline my approach for better results again??? Fiona

all aggressive and heightened responses need to be handled by a professional. Once you have the knowledge then you practice it and cement good behaviours. Corrections are not for every dog though, and not for every situation. But they are nothing to be shied away from as they are a valuable tool in the learning process IF THE DOG REQUIRES IT. You will ALWAYS require positive reinforcement in training, you have to be able to give the dog some way of cementing the new, good behaviours and make them want to aim for what you want. But sometimes to get there you need to apply some corrections in order to show the dog, if you want to take that route it's not very pleasant ... listen and focus on me and it's super awesome! It adds to your value and enhances the dogs ability to make a decision in what it will exhibit as a behaviour. You dont shout or growl at the dog, you say nothing, correct, then pleasantly command and praise when it does what you show it to do. I wish I had taken a video of a dog I dealt with today, 9 months old BIG dog ripping its owners arm out and no control. By the end of the lesson we had learned to heel on loose leash, focus, sit stay, drop stay. And the dog was SO happy even though the first few corrections may have confused her a little as she had never received them before. We worked through and the owner was so pleased, I even told them that dog is a natural at obedience work. She just learned that running off like a loony and hitting the end of the leash is unpleasant, but heeling and paying attention gets you treats, pats and cuddles. What dog could resist but to behave Excellent post Nekhbet, very well explained Fiona

I like the sound of Rocky, a bit of dominance aggression and some sharpness, sounds like the makings of great GSD..........but you MUST learn to train and control him properly. What you should have done and don't try and analyse why he does it, he's a lunger with aggressive intent that you need to accept and sort it out. ANY dog he has the potential for him to lunge at with a need to watch his body language and be ready for a reaction in those situations. He will get stronger at lunging and can easily pull you off your feet if you are not ready for a reaction and often then, he has got hold of the dog before you realise what's happened. At the chain link fence when the dog approached, the moment Rocky made a lunging movement, you command NO without emotion and lift the leash straight up and air block him until he settles and gently let him down when he relaxes then praise him for calm, then move away from the other dog to create some distance and don't allow him to greet the dog. You want him to ignor other dogs essentially, be aware of them, but not worry about them or need to interact with them at this stage until a rehabilitation process is in place by a professional trainer. There is nothing wrong with Rocky, he's not a fruit loop or anything, just a cocky adoloecent male with some spirit, many GSD's are like that but can become out of control if not trained and handled properly. Fiona

Are you for real? I would be seriously careful about ever recommending negative reinforcement in a situation like this where all you have is what the owner has said. You don't know why the dog is doing it and what reaction that dog will have to a correction of such force. Recommending anyone to hang a dog in the air by their lead is seriously not on! Hi Lovemesideways, This situation the OP has asked for help with is a serious one. When you reach the stage of aggression when you are pulling dogs apart to stop a fight especially a large dog with traits to have a real go against a small dog that can be easily killed with one decent chomp, the situation needs to be dealt with fast, and what I have recommended will fix it. In fact, a couple of air blocks is usually enough to stop an aggressive lunger altogether and provide a calmer and safer environment to work with other methods of redirection and conditioning. I respect the opinions of people who have no experience dealing with the effects of aggression simply because they wouldn't know what to do or how to apply an emergency proceedure other than rushing a dog to the vets with pieces missing off it which is often then too late, or taking the aggressive dog to the vets for a one way trip because they can't handle it, or they employ the assistance of trainers who can't handle it either. It's not until you are faced with aggression, living with it and absorbing the anxiety that comes with it, can anyone really understand what it feels like and until you have experienced this for yourself and rehabilitated this behaviour successfully as I have many times over, your opinion of the situation from my perspective has no relevence whatsoever. We can all respond with geez RockDog, that's really nasty and we feel for you and get a behaviourist in which is no help to her as we speak, I have layed it on the line with a process that will stop the dog's aggression instantly and allow her to control the situation until she has the opportunity to seek professional help and I make no apologies for that Fiona

if done correctly it doesnt. You have to show, and I'm speaking for some situations, that their behaviour is totally unacceptable. THEN you redirect the dog to the right behaviour. What your stating is partly old wives tail and partly when people were just cruel to their dogs, we've come a long way since then. I can tell you the classes I train at, we welcome aggressive dogs and most will receive some form of correction to help curb their behaviour. 99% go on to enjoy off lead group play happily and in a controlled manner. Leave the decisions up to an experienced trainer and trust me, you will be happy with the results. Correct there is nothing you can do successfully to redirect calm in a lunging dog that wants to fight other than to snap them out of the reactivity with enough force to take their mind completely away from their aggressive intention. WHEN calm has been achieved, THEN you have a model to work with for behaviour rehabilitiation. If you pussy foot around once they reach the lunging and biting stage which many do is the difference between the ones who can successfully treat aggression and the one's who can't. There a more trainers who struggle with aggressive dogs than one's who can correct it I have found Fiona

Hey Diablo/Rex/whatever - I thought it was you No, that was Dianne Huski, I have trained with her she's very good but got tired of

Sounds good. Could probably organise one with postman drive too Fiona ;)

I sympathise with your nasty ordeal, it should never happen, but how do you intend to identify this dog......it was a black and tan GSD???. Unless you see what house it came out from or went back into even if they find a GSD in the vacinity at some stage is not conclusive to be the same dog. I hate to think of an innocent dog getting tangled up in things like this Fiona

I think you would do really well with a nice GSD, keep up those inspiring thoughts Fiona ;)

This is simply not true. Have a look around the world and tell me how many SL make a world championship IPO/ SchH team. The answer is very few. If it was just a matter of doing what you were saying then there would be many more SL on the world championship circuit but there isn't. Dogs must qualify to make the teams so work it out for yourself. There are always exceptions to this but in general the WL will out perform everytime. Ivan Balabanov tested that theory with Apache do Amper a showline dog he competed in the world title finishing 86th. Ivan with the right dog should have either won it or been a top 5 finisher given his training ability. There were 40 odd working line dogs behind him and had similar scores to one of our best working line sporting dogs Nordenstamm Chiller. No doubt Apache and Ivan competing in a local Schutzhund trial here would probably win having the training ability to take the dog to it's limits, but although obviously Apache is a great working showline, he just didn't quite have the performance of the working lines at world level competition. Fiona

I would expect a dog weak on nerve would flick out of prey drive and into defence quite quickly. To add to this a thinner nerved dog would generally be more hectic. I have always associated nerve strength from recovery from an unpleasant experience. An example of thin nerve would be a dog that messes up a jump and falls over it, then panics and won't go near it and becomes frightened. A thicker nerve dog would come a gutser and spring back up for another go???. I know some dogs with excellent recovery and courage that ramp up in prey drive in a hectic way and labelled as lacking nerve, but I don't think they are given their recovery and courage properties Fiona

Hi RockDog, What you need to do is knock that behaviour on the head fast as it will esculate. The "best and fastest" way to stop the behaviour is using negative reinforcement to teach the dog that acting aggressively, he's going to cop something he will respect. You need him on a leash and watch for an aggressive reaction and the moment he goes to lunge, lift the leash straight up, front legs off the ground with harsh NO command and air block him, hold him up until he looks at you, then slowly release him to the ground. If he goes at it again, hoist him up again with another NO command and he will get the message that aggression will not be tolorated under any circumstances. If you feel uneasy about the process, best hire a good trainer who is experienced in K9 type training of working dogs, but be careful hiring clicker and treat trainers for correction of that behaviour as they won't fix it. A good quality GSD can handle that type of correction and will respect you for taking a leading role in your relationship and will transform the aggressive reactions quickly. Best of luck Fiona

Here say means nothing to me I'm sorry, And yet, by your posts, you expect people to agree with you when you are offering only hearsay? How about proof? Incidentally, poodle x maltese was responsible for a fatal attack in the UK as I recall, and poodles have been implicated in fatal attacks in the USA - as have most other breeds. malsrock Malsrock - if you check the reasons for attacks, there are NO "dogs like that" - although what you are saying is totally correct. Attacks are perpetrated by dogs owned by people who are uncaring, or unaware. Hence "deed, not breed". Chained dogs are over represented in attack stats. Some attacks are caused by the lunacy of people, or in other attacks, by sheer unawareness. Dogs never "turn" - there is a reason for every attack. Some reasons are more obscure than others, but in every case, the owner was not aware of the trigger, or that it had been pulled. Often dogs which are cited as "family" dogs are in fact, resident dogs. Until we rid ourselves of the notion that pitbulls and/or bull breeds exclusively kill people, we will never acknowdge that all breeds of DOGS kill people. No breed, just dogs. Hi Jed, My word there are "dogs like that" born with genetic aggression and I owned one for 15 years. I had a Flat Coated Retriever prior to that and she was a lovely placid friendly dog. The BYB GSD I purchased next at 4 months old raised exactly the same way with love and affection just the same began to lunge at and bite strangers all of a sudden By the time he was 18 months old, he wanted bite to everyone and everything that didn't belong in our family and friend base and I couldn't handle him at all. In the end we trained him and made a good dog out of him although you could never let strangers pat him or trust him with kids, but he was well controlled and managed. I didn't make him like that, he was born with a high level of sharpness and civil aggression and security people used to drool over him, but I can tell you that "nothing" is more difficult and taxing than handling and training a genetically aggressive dog, and unless someone has owned one, they really shouldn't be commenting about it because faced with living with a dog like that and the liability potential, most would seriously poop their pants and get rid of it one way or the other ;) Fiona

I don't know if I'd want to believe that what was reported in the papers always reflected reality. Case in point, this was just posted on DOL: "According to numbers that I obtained through an FOI request a couple of years ago, in the time period of July 1, 2004 - August 15, 2007, 'pit bulls' accounted for 17.7% of all of the dog bites recorded by San Francisco animal control. So while bites by 'pit bulls' accounted for 17.7% of all bites, they accounted for 65% of all dog bite stories - -and 100% of the stories where the breed type was mentioned in the headlines." http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=205117 I read a similar article a few years back, although I've sadly lost it now, but it reported how pitbull attacks were often over reported, whereas attacks by non-pitbull dogs were ignored or only reported in the local papers. I would be interested in seeing what proportion of council registered, responsibly owned, bull breed dogs were involved in attacks, compared with the proportion of other breeds. But to my knowledge, that research has never been done. I had a bash getting info from my local animal control 5 or 6 years ago to do a study like that, but the info just wasn't recorded appropriately for it to be analysed. The Pitbull reporting is rediculous I think and I doubt if many are genuine Pit's, but are definitely Bull breed crosses of some description by the look of them. Some would disagree, but I wouldn't imagine that the media would ignore substantial attacks causing injury from breeds other than supposed Pitbull's Fiona ;)

Totally agree Especially with the final sentence. Using separate commands for training and around the house is definitely something I will be doing with my next dog too. I also don't like when other people (i.e. family) use my obedience commands but stuff them up etc. ;) Thanks ;) I was thinking Huski, what you have achieved with your Beagle I am impressed and just imagining what you could do with a dedicated performance dog, can I talk you into a Malinois or working line GSD for your next one Fiona :D

Well, I'm not expert, but it sounds to me like you're quite effectively training him not to sit on cue when you are walking him. ;) Sounds to me like you were in a new environment (one where you don't normally ask for a sit), dog will be checking to see whether the old rules of reinforcement apply in this new environment, and when no reward happens, your smart dog will very quickly decide that it's not worth performing in this new environment. Ooops! There are probably lots of ways to solve the issue. How I handle it is I try to keep training/performance separate from day to day commands. I think if you insist on the same level of performance from the dog all the time, you end up with a middling level of performance - too sloppy for competition, too intense for round the house. No dog can be in drive 100% of the time. But there is always a reward (or a punishment) of some type when I ask her to do something. Otherwise, why would she do it? The one thing I would never do is take her to a new environment and not reward her for her obedience (or punish her for disobedience). I think that's teaching the opposite of what you want the dog to learn. PS, Huski, I think they're spectacular. I have never seen such a focused beagle! ;) I always previously taught leash obedience Koehler style, with the long leash first, reel them in for the recall and condition that and their general obedience was magic, but this time I have concentrated on drive building and obedience in drive Ivan Balabanov style, have all his CD's , so his obedience in drive with focus and release for reward is fast and concise which I am really happy with, but his general obedience is crap compared to the general obedience my old method produced, but I am new to this type of training and have lots to learn. It seems like sometimes that drive training is back to front, like I should be general obedience training first, but I guess trying some of the suggestions people have kindly shared with me, I will hopefully get a better handle on it :D Fiona :p