iceni

yeppa, corn cobs are deadly to dogs and so are those awful hessian bed covers if ingested, well its the bowel obstruction that kills but those two items are notorious for causing bowel obstructions oh and so are socks LOL

you've got my vote poodle wrangler, we have rotating jaws and flattened molars for cud chewing and not real canines - bite into a live cows butt and see how far ya get, also 36ft long intestines for digestion of of nuts and berries and tubers same as other herbivores. This is a complicated debate and not for this forum and the original post was veggie diets for dogs which as vego's we do not support

Our saints like some fruit and veg too, they also like ice cream, cake, donuts and the like but those items were not and are still not free roaming either solitary or in herds around the planet. One of our girls has a passion for cherries and macadamia nuts - I applaud her taste but not the cost!! Nuts / berries / grains / roots / tubers and the odd carcass have been man food for a very long time. Life spans have increased on a healthy, balanced diet, sanitation and medicine, in developed countries we are now dying young from diseases of excess not deficiency, as in the past. Lack of Vit B12 or inability to utilise it due to lack of intrinsic factor causes pernicious anaemia as well as neural damage and yes vegans can and do succumb to this, but the source gained from veggies is usually from the traces of animal fertilisers left on the veggies and not necessarliy the veggie itself and we do only require miniscule amounts. Alcohol also knocks out the intrinsic factor secreted in the stomach for uptake of some of the B vitamins - which is why alcoholics suffer some of the same symptoms as those with P/A - but do without good ol' EtOH? heck that would involve yet another major lifestyle change so we pays our money and takes our chances. Our saints are not too impressed with raw meat but certainly hang around the dinner table for some of what we are having. Food animals are raised in such conditions that automatically creates an unhealthy food source for us and our canine friends. I got jacked off with the constant gastritis in the saints from human grade chicken carcasses and lamb flaps and bones that we used to feed. We tried the BARF diet and thats exactly what our saints did LOL it obviously works for some but not in our case. These days they get a good quality kibble, a processed veterinary formulated meat roll and each morning they get something different on breakfast from the following menu: Salmon Boiled Egg (from "my girls") Cheese Tuna Yoghurt (with cultures) Sardines in soya oil (naughty us) And on the seventh day usually an Anzac Biscuit or a Donut for elevenses they think its just the greatest!! but NO supplements EVER ! anyhoo this was not the original topic so I shall beat a hasty retreat ;-) Morgan, maybe the cheetah's should be grateful they did not have ground up lion left overs in their diet too or we could see the advent of large feline spongiform encephalopathy - I say leave them in the wild where they belong, then just maybe they might be more happy to breed and be able to eat what they are supposed to now I am definately off - I have to hand over half my apple donut to the preganant one or she will spit all over me and the furniture !

I recall a few years back a couple being prosecuted for cruelty in the states for feeding their dog a vegetarian diet. Dogs are carnivores, ie: large canine teeth, jaws that move up and down only designed to tear not chew and short intestines to dump off quickly all that co-carcinogen toxic stuff that is left over from a meat diet. Give a dog a ham and salad sandwich and the lettuce and tomato is more often than not spat onto the floor. We are vego's too, we give our dogs soy products, or rather they steal them off the counter while our backs are turned and it does not seem to have harmed them at all. Whilst we find it repusive to feed one type of animal to another we cannot impose our value judgements on them by not feeding what they were designed to eat. They primarily require protein and fat for energy, we primarily require carbs and sugars. Our parrots love the soy milk out of the O/H's breakfast bowl in the morning and queue up for a spoonful ! that does not seem to have harmed them either Its been interesting to note that one of our girls that is pregnant at the moment seems to have sugar cravings, she goes into a right froth anytime there is a peice of cake or something sugary around, so we give it to her and then she settles down quite happily. I could think of a lot worse things to eat than soy!! Morgan, could you please tell me where you got your "toxic soy" info from, I would be most interested to read it, Canola yes, there is no such thing as a "Canola Plant" its chemically altered Rape Seed that is very toxic. Our cockatoo's are very healthy and our Sun Conure has outstanding colours, I can supply a pic if you like and they all regularly have soy milk. And why would anyone feed Soy to cheetahs???

so sorry to hear about the loss of your bitch Kayla, you must be heartbroken. We know its no comfort at this time but she was a saint on earth and is now a saint in heaven watching over you all. our thoughts are with you, Julie and Michael Kevin & Donna

cant beat vitamin c and zinc for collagen synthesis and wound repair, good old lanolin is good for scars too

On of our then gangly 15 month old saints kept getting the runs on the usual food we use, we switched to Eagle Pack Power $96.00 for 22kg, after three bags he is a different dog, he has put on weight, got a good coat back and no longer looks like a skinny pound dog, he seems to have a very sensitive stomach and he is still fed three small meals a day at 18 months old, another month or so and we can cut him back, amazing the difference in him. We also give him Nutripet on his dinner - thats great stuff too if ya can stand the smell of it

so sorry to hear about Sasha, it was the photo that opened the flood gates of pent up tears and I never had the privilege of giving her a pat. Close losses both recent and pending are overwhelming I weep for all the losses and suffering and send you this thought: "I looked around me at all the suffering of the animals I looked at their pain and wondered why I asked God, why don't you do something about this? He was quiet for a moment and then answered "I did do something .. I created you"

so sorry to hear of your loss, Rudyard Kipling wrote an emotive poem, I will post it here, the foolish thing is we all go back for more heartbreak, again and again ... don't we???? ******************************** The Power of the Dog Rudyard Kipling There is sorrow enough in the natural way From men and women to fill our day But when we are certain of sorrow in store Why do we always arrange for more? Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware Of giving your heart to a dog to tear. Buy a pup and your money will buy Love unflinching that cannot lie Perfect passion and worship fed By a kick in the ribs or a pat on the head Nevertheless it is hardly fair To risk your heart for a dog to tear When the fourteen years that nature permits Are closing in asthma or tumour or fits And the vets unspoken prescription runs To lethal chambers or loaded guns Then you will find - but its your own affair But ... you've given your heart to a dog to tear When the body that lived at your single will With its whimper of welcome, is stilled (how still) When the spirit that answered your every mood Is gone - wherever it goes - for good You will discover how much you care And will give your heart to a dog to tear! We've sorrow enough in the natural way When it comes to burying Christian clay Our loves are not given, but only lent At compound interest cent for cent Though it is not always the case, I believe That the longer we keep 'em the more we do grieve For, when debts are payable, right or wrong A short-time loan is as bad as a long So why in Heaven (before we are there) Should we give our hearts to a dog to tear?

Pawbus: so sorry to hear of your double tragedy, its little comfort I know but those of us who have walked a mile in your shoes over the years share and know your pain. Time does slowly heal, it is the pain that makes us remember those that we have loved and lost and never forget them

Yesterday evening "Tulip" (Raaleppo: Golden Cloggs) a 3 year old St Bernard bitch lost her life suddenly after suffering what was is believed to be a stroke. Tulip has left behind in her wake a beautiful litter of 4 sons and two daughters that are only 16 days old. Tulip was a first time mom and this was the first always carefully thought out, planned and much awaited litter that the SouthSea Saint Bernards household had been blessed with for over 4 years. Despite everyones best efforts Tulip could not be saved but she did not suffer and her legacy will live on in the children that were privileged to have Tulip as their mother. Our thoughts are with the Nicholls family at this tragic time who are not able to grieve in peace right now as there are little ones to be cared for. Tulip could not have wished for or gotten a more loving, caring attentive home and it just does not seem to be fair that this should happen to such a beautiful saint bernard who was very much loved by her family. Elise, Scott, Josh, Jason, Blake and little Maddie "Do not stand by Tulips grave and weep, she is not there, she does not sleep She is a thousand winds that blow, she is the diamond glint on snow She is the sunlight on ripened grain, she is the gentle autumn rain When you wake in the morning hush, she is your swift uplifting rush Of the birds in circling flight, she is the soft starshine of night, Do not stand by her grave and cry, she is not there she did not die" our hearts go out to you Kevin & Donna & all Tulie's relatives at Desaix

our whites are very snowy white which is why we probably not noticed any improvement but some if our saints have pink elbows, will the Plush Puppy help with that? We are willing to try most things so long as they are legal and do not inflict pain

We use Laserlites mixed with Canine Care Hydrobath Solution, love that coconut smell and we have just started to use Dazzle Dog as recommended by Samoyed breeders, can't say we have noticed much difference in their whites tho. On Babies we use Canine Care Ice Water (only available in WA I believe) with Johnsons Baby Shampoo, the pink one, they smell like little peices of heaven. We have not to date had a skin problem with this regime. Canine Care is a natural pyrethrin low sudsing hydrobath solution that has a mild detergent, astringent and antiseptic. It does not need rinsing off. We use it because it smells nice. We are not cursed with flea's although as a flea killer its not very effective these days. For flea infestations on rescues we choose to use a sheep dip which is then rinsed off, not nice but its over pretty quick and we KNOW the flea's are all dead

someone pass me some tissues please!! tears, the lump in the throat and the pain in the heart, it makes us all remember forever those we have loved and lost thankyou for sharing, I probably needed that cry anyhow

well said, having worked in ED I have not seen a septic arthritis from an animal bite but sure have seen plenty from human "bites" usually occurring when one member of the human species had decided to punch another member of the human species in the mouth for reasons best known to them

I did acknowledge that in the first paragraph, "animals need to be fit and healthy regardless". Some antibodies are not made in time to stop an animal from dying, depending on the pathogen in question, thats why there are vaccinations. Also the immune system often requires help in form of antibiotics for bacterial infections. I was talking about immune mediated responses not the immune system in its entirety, esp when lethal pathogens are concerned. Again an animal needs to be fit and healthy. Four times you have stated a good diet is important, I agreed with you so I am not sure what your point is ?

Immune mediated responses are "built" by exposure to pathogens not by diet and exercise. Parvo can still kill, Distemper can still kill and the only way get an immunity to those two known killers is to be exposed to them - guess you have just been very lucky, hope your luck holds out. Animals need to be fit and healthy regardless as illness drains all body systems. Titres are a great idea. We have heard of lots of cases of saints dying from Cardiomyopathy after the age of six at about 3 weeks post annual vaccination. Hereditary CM strikes between the ages of three and four generally. We have stopped vaccinating after our oldies turn six. They generally don't go off the property as they have an acre to play on. Research is now showing that vaccinations are not all they are cracked up to be both human and veterinary. My Mantoux test at aged 28 had a 20mm response, no one can tell me if I have been exposed to TB in my job or whether it was the TB vacc I had at the age of 15 that caused the reaction :D

A few pointers about human flu vaccines (I would NEVER have one or advocate them) because of the time taken to produce the vaccine it's usually the previous years flu that the vaccine will protect against. Also like all viruses, flu viruses MUTATE and we cannot keep up with the rate of mutation. The vaccine will only protect against the strains that are in the vaccine so how anybody can quantify "I didn't get it as bad" is beyond me, chances are they caught another strain of the common cold, you will know when you have the flu as opposed to a cold that everyone thinks is the flu - in bed for days and would rather be dead. However some people do become ill after the flu shot, I have seen permanent urticaria (itchy rash), death from anaphylaxis (shock), bronchial asthma and pulmonary emboli (blood clots in lungs) as complications of having a flu jab. Inject myself with an attenuated virus? No way! I would rather take my chances with the flu. :D