jacqui835

Actually I think it is. Type may vary according to "fashion" but faults and disqualifying faults don't. How any ethical breeder could DELIBERATELY breed dogs outside the standard defies logic. For a start, its a potential genetic dead end. Of course if you have a huge set up, lots of breeding dogs and don't give a toss about ethics "breeding to the tastes of the market" is a piece of cake. Its not like you'd actually show your dogs now is it? what you are forgetting, parson jack russell did not write his standard in his head to please a show world that in those days didnt exist, neither did almost every breed registered, they came before the chicken......oops showworld... they did not breed or select for a "show" standard. they selected for what they wanted. subtle difference but a very importand one. and many people had many different ideas, enthusists drew up a standard to help all have a guideline. but it never ceases to amaze how many different interpartions of the written word is possible too and every interpretator thinks THEY AND THEIR VERSION IS RIGHT. makes it confusing n tough to figure out the maze of differing opinions. breeding with the pet market in mind was exactly what was done in the case of the manufacture of the cavalier king charles, they wanted to recreate the doggy in the picture...n the ultimate lap doggie. pretty much succeeded, pity the snake and rate hunting drives still there. makes it a nightmare if a snake gets int your backyard... cattle dogs are much smarter in that regard in avoiding being bitten although too many still do. but cavies? all in and bite? what bite? oooooo mum i fell sick. so thats one trait pity it wasnt selected for snake avoidance instead some where in the dim past save a lot of tears You're right, and there is plenty of evidence to support it. Breeds have changed and continue to change dramatically as standards are reinterpreted. There weren't any shepherds with curvey backs before and now there are almost 2 different breeds... The standards themselves were invented at the time to ensure the production of dogs that could do the jobs their forefathers did. Well, with many breeds this isn't even the case (and in some cases this has led to the breed almost splitting into two - working lines vs show lines etc), but additionally, the purpose of many breeds has changed - why hasn't the standard? What made the standards and the breeds created prior to the last 50 years so special? What would be so wrong with one of the registered staffy breeders picking out 2 of their dogs who both contain the dilute gene, conducting all of their usual health tests, and then breeding them and making some money to enable themselves to devote more focus to the breed, whilst also stopping some yobbo from selling his inferior quality blue staffies?

Supposedly because I love dobermans, I will also love dalmations, cocker spaniels (seems like if you like any dog you'll like them... not me, they're ugly in my books lol) and wait for it... british bulldogs. I'm not sure how that works, but I can tell you in my case, it's not true at all. I love dobermans, but I also like GSD's, Weim's, rotties and that's about it...

I've had people pose with my dog to take photos, because he's a very handsome boy. But they ask first. I have no problem with it if they ask, it's just weird to have your photo taken when you're not expecting it. Additionally, there's a difference between them photographing just my dog, which I never mind, and them photographing me and the dog. But I've had some issues with that in the past, so maybe my views are skewed. Still a simple, would you mind if we took a photo of you and your dog goes a long way.

That's debatable. Personally I think the Weim is still emerging from the curse of being a popular dog in the 70's The American Cocker Spaniel (in the USA) was described in one veterinary health book I've read as "a walking congenital disaster area". At the time the book was written, it would have been the most popular and probably most BYB or milled breed in that country. There are many breed fanciers who dread their preferred breed ever becoming popular and attracting the kinds of fly by night, breed what's hot, types you see pick up and drop breeds like last year's fashion. If you want to see a breed develop a raft of health issues, that's how to do it. ;) And that has more to do with the breeders than the dogs. Yes, I love that my doberman seems to make a good impression on people, but I get quite scared when they look at him, and then at their own crazy, out of control and non-responsive submissive breed and say something like, hmm, I think perhaps we should try a doberman, they seem like a better breed or whatever. But in regards to your post, seems like you're stating that if the Weim is suffering more health problems, it's because it was too popular and subject to indiscriminate breeding, not because of the initial goal to breed a distinctively coloured dog who was also a good hunting companion. I suppose it could be argued that the Weim's distinctive colour has then caused it extensive trouble, but not because of the colour genetics, but rather because of how much people like it. Somehow though I think we'll be more successful in the long run by trying to educate people of why it's important to not breed indiscriminately, rather than never breeding with colour as a factor. For example, I am obsessed with dobermans, and I have been told by training clubs, breeders and randoms that I'm an ideal doberman owner. But because of the crap that we faced when we had a black and tan rottie, I probably would not have gotten a doberman if they didn't come in red. It seems silly, but you would not believe the different kind of reception this dog gets compared to the black rottie, despite being equally well-natured, and then of course the impact that then has on the way the dog views people. Nobody on the street ever told me the rottie had a good nature, or was a great dog etc, but my doberman gets that on an almost daily basis. Does that sort of thing matter? In my opinion yes, because the rottie became more and more cautious around people she didn't know, because they were always acting strange and like they were scared of her. So for me, colour was a decisive factor in dog selection. People want blue staffies - personally I find the colour extremely attractive, but would not select one at the expense of health and type. There are many people who don't want to show, are happy to desex their dogs as early as possible, but want a blue staffy. They seem to choose a crap blue staffy over a good staffy of another colour (often because they don't know any better and the websites are misleading). But they would probably choose a good well-bred blue staffy from a renowned breeder over a crap blue staffy from an unknown yobbo, especially if it were the same price or cheaper and came with papers and breeder support and advice (which frankly I think is essential for anyone taking on a dog, let alone a staffy). And plenty of these people are decent owners (who could possibly be great owners if they got a little more support and advice), I see them down at the park. They're not perfect, and the dogs aren't always as balanced as they could be, but the dogs are quite happy and owner and dog seem to love each other. And I don't think there's anything wrong with registered breeders who are trying to improve dog breeds making a bit of money on the side by breeding to the tastes of the market, whilst incorporating their own values and standards. But let me make very clear that making money should not be the reason anyone goes into dog breeding. This I believe would potentially lead to a reduction in the rate of indiscriminate breeding and a rise in good responsible dog ownership. Just my opinion though, and I'm no dog breeder and never will be. Just a dog lover and I hate seeing so many extremely poor examples of the breed - there's like 500 staffies at the park, but only like 5 are any colour other than blue, and most of those with other coloured staffies stare longingly at the blue ones, and comment on how beautiful they are. Now the breeders may say, well I never want to sell my dogs to anyone but the best and I don't want to attract those sorts of types. But, if they don't, they get the dogs from somewhere else, from someone who grabbed the first two blue staffies they could, probably from someone else doing the same thing they are, and overall, it's worse for the breed. I don't know, it's a difficult situation...

Well I only heart my dog 85%, but it's not fair because I said I spend more time grooming myself than him, but that's because he doesn't need it. He's a doberman, if he needed more I'd give it to him... Oh yeah and I don't sign my cards with his name either lol but to be honest, I do often say to family and close friends, me and the pooch miss you etc etc.

So that would see those blue SBT breeders homing pups with a risk of inherited health issues - even breeding those pups is now against the law in Victoria. Breeding without that health testing might see a few Victorians end up on the wrong side of that legislation and with the Vic consumer affairs people knocking on the door too. There's a wake up call if anyone needed one. Dogs VIC should be taking a pretty hard look at registering ANY pup from a breeder that fails to health test for known heritable conditions. I doubt the other states will be too far behind on this sort of legislation. I hope they come up with a DNA test for dilute colour alopecia really soon. Wait, I'm not saying I condone the breeding of random animals that may or may not have health issues, just saying, take a look at Petlink and you'll see heaps of ads from people who are doing just that... I am glad there are laws being introduced to try and prevent that. The point I was making was that the Weim today does not seem have a heap more health problems than any other pure breed of dog (and in fact less than many), but initially, colour was a factor in their development, and a recessive dilute colour at that. Back then according to the breed history if your dog was a shoddy hunter it couldn't be bred from, and they kept such tight wraps on the dog that they were able to control it (unlike what happens with staffies today).

Not in my book. If the creators of the Wei set out today, to create a great working dog and it just so happened that the best examples of their working dog were dilutes I personally wouldn't have an issue with it. Others no doubt think differently but if you are breeding dogs which are good at their intended function, healthy and have the correct temperament then what colour it is is irrelevant to me. It's when the colour comes first in this equation that it's unethical IMO. Well, my understanding is that colour was a key factor in the development of the Weim... They selectively bred for a recessive colour to distinguish the dogs as well as aiming for a superior hunting dog - Weim's were reserved for royalty and the rich and famous for some time after their development and could not be owned merely as a pet, however, unlike other hunting breeds, they were kept inside the house at night because they were so valuable. There were enormous constraints on which dogs could be used for breeding, primarily proof of their working ability, but the unique colour was deliberate and actively maintained, not because these animals were initially the superior hunting dogs, but because they were distinguishable, which was as important to the royals and wealthy who developed them as their hunting ability... And I bet they culled each and every dog that developed health problems, just like they'd have culled dogs that failed to be superior hunters. Times have changed and we don't tend to knock dogs on the head at the first sign of issues these days. Yes well now we could find pet homes for them - weims weren't allowed to be just pets back then. The blue staffy BYB's have no trouble finding pet homes for their inferior produce and they don't even do any health testing or breed selection...

Not in my book. If the creators of the Wei set out today, to create a great working dog and it just so happened that the best examples of their working dog were dilutes I personally wouldn't have an issue with it. Others no doubt think differently but if you are breeding dogs which are good at their intended function, healthy and have the correct temperament then what colour it is is irrelevant to me. It's when the colour comes first in this equation that it's unethical IMO. Well, my understanding is that colour was a key factor in the development of the Weim... They selectively bred for a recessive colour to distinguish the dogs as well as aiming for a superior hunting dog - Weim's were reserved for royalty and the rich and famous for some time after their development and could not be owned merely as a pet, however, unlike other hunting breeds, they were kept inside the house at night because they were so valuable. There were enormous constraints on which dogs could be used for breeding, primarily proof of their working ability, but the unique colour was deliberate and actively maintained, not because these animals were initially the superior hunting dogs, but because they were distinguishable, which was as important to the royals and wealthy who developed them as their hunting ability...

Moselle the only one spoiling this thread is you. If you don't like what someone has said ignore it. There's no reason to be replying to absolutely every body in a thread that has a differing opinion from you! I am not replying to everyone due to differing opinions, MB. I am replying as a means to defend myself esp from the same posters who have a habit of misconstruing everything I say and making a point of singling me out even though others say the exact same thing as myself! Hey I don't actually disagree with everything you've said or agree with everything been said by everyone else. I understand that this forum is devoted to pure breeds but I'm not entirely up to scratch on how they decide on the standard for breeds (like don't get me started on GSD with roach backs or dogs with squashed faces and curly tails - you know they worry about breeding dogs with too much white or whatever in case they have hearing problems, but spinal and breathing problems are just fine etc and etc) and/or how you could go about inventing a new breed if you felt so inclined. But, let me tell you something that I (like you it seems) learned the hard way, this forum is not the place to talk about it. If you have general dog questions, want to see nice pictures of dogs and get training tips, this is the place to come. Anything else, well these people are very protective of their chosen interest and whether you agree with everything or not, this is a forum devoted to that single purpose and so it's not really fair to ruin it for them. It's like going to a Holden site and asking why they don't incorporate Ford - they're just not interested and you can't convince them otherwise. They're not targeting you personally so much as they just target anyone who challenges their views - point is you don't have to agree with them, but this forum is just not the place to discuss it. I'm still not very liked so I can't help you achieve that, but if you don't want to be attacked (and believe me, there are plenty of people here who will attack you vigorously), let it go. I love dogs and though I'm not 100% set on the whole purebred thing, I haven't found a more comprehensive or active Australian forum, so it's worth making compromises and following the rules to hang around. Love this thread with the exception of this aspect.

Gosh that would be a terrible situation. My partner was allergic to my old cat (just the one cat) but she had a shocking dental problem. He tried antihistamines but would start tearing up virtually the second he entered my house, and his nose would run like a tap, making it hard for him to breathe. It was really terrible, because I felt like I had to choose between my cat and my boyfriend. She was old though, so rehoming her wasn't even really an option - at least you've discovered this when your dog is relatively young. Dog allergy is actually quite rare relatively speaking, cat and horse and other animal allergies are much more common, and often if you're allergic to dogs you're allergic to heaps of animals. I would definitely opt for the allergy tests, because you never know, if your son does some from allergies he could be allergic to other things as well, and this is the safest way to find out.

My dobe does exactly the same thing to older dogs he admires, or who have just told him off. This is a dog who has never completely submitted (rolled onto his back) for any dog, he just runs away from those sorts of situations. Mind you, I have always intervened if things go beyond that, if the dog chases him for example. The best I've seen him do is put his head down a bit and his ears back, but with the majority of dogs he is at least an equal to, and younger ones lick his mouth and lips. For example, today we went to the park, got drenched, and then played with a very dominant and very large olden golden retriever, owned by a little old woman who is always miles away and on the phone. Typically I avoid her, but today they arrived without me noticing, so I just kept my dog close. Her dog likes to aggressively dominate dogs, but once they submit he lets them go on their way. Now of course, my dog has never rolled for any dog, and so attracts a fair bit of attention from this guy, and seriously, it's a massive golden retriever - slightly larger than my dobe. The golden retriever eventually tried to mount him whilst he was busy waiting for a ball to be thrown, he yipped and ran away, and he's faster. He returned immediately after, head level and ears back, and gave him a bit of a kiss. They left each other alone after that. My dog is not submissive, but he's also not interested in fighting or accepting challenges (he kinda was for a brief period at about 7-8 months but not anymore), so he does what's needed to avoid it. Perhaps your dog is the similar.

Oh gosh I was a shocker when I first got my dobe. I thought he had a heart problem because his heart beat so quickly and so strongly in his chest - it still beats strongly but it's slower than mine now. I also thought he had broken ribs and other bones, because it seemed like his ribs were in the wrong spot and stuck out. Vet thought he was fine though lol and well he's looking great now so I don't know what was wrong with me... I also thought he was slow as a puppy, that I had somehow found a dud in the litter even though both his parents were so incredibly clever, but I tried to cover for him and portray him as really smart. It was like he wanted to learn so badly but he was just stupid and couldn't work anything out. Anyway, he grew up and now he's ridiculously smart - learns new tricks in 30 secs, understands so many words (we're always discovering new ones because we'll say something to each other and the dog will respond), but, he is no longer so keen to perform - thinks he's a bit too good for it and actually protests when you ask him to do tricks he doesn't like. I should make a youtube video actually, it cracks people up when we ask him to roll over and he starts virtually howling about it. He's obedient when it comes to things like recalls, stays etc but the tricks, well, you need to offer something special in return for those.

I can't believe it. Last night, I'm walking the pooch and we come to the road. Older man next to me comes over and says, "Oh you could put a saddle on him and ride it". It was a smile and nod moment. The weird thing is to me he still looks so small. It's only when I'm on the floor and he tries to come and sit on my lap like he did when he was a baby that I realise he must have grown, because physically he can't get more than 2 paws on. Or when he jumps up and he can put his arms around my shoulders and I'm 5'9. Love the GSD cross Basset - that is something special. You guys shouldn't be listening when someone tells you your dog is ugly, being beautiful does not make you more deserving of love, and anyone who thinks otherwise should be felt sorry for.

Well I never thought that red dobermans were a rare thing (dobermans on the whole seem to be pretty rare I guess though) but my dog has been correctly identified about 5 times in his whole life - and this is a dog who meets a lot of people. The most common breeds people tell me he is (they don't usually ask, they just tell me) are kelpie cross, weim, vizsla and by little kids, a scooby doo. One time though, a guy came up to us and told me he was hungarian and he loved my hungarian vizsla. I said, oh actually he's a doberman, but vizslas are great dogs too and do look similar (not really but you know) and he got angry and told me I was wrong and that he'd had dogs for 100 years or whatever and would know etc. And for the person who is enjoying seeing all the photos, here he is

I think they are referring to the silver labrador, which is not an acceptable colour but is being bred all the same. Personally I think they're beautiful, not sure if there are any health issues associated or not.

OMG, snap. I have had several people recently ask me what my dog is, and say she's pretty, and where did I get her. Yes, she is pretty. No, you don't want one. Strangely enough, or perhaps not strangely, I didn't used to get that when she was a bit younger and she greeted strangers by shrieking and flailing and gnashing her teeth with excitement (and occasionally biting their trousers). It's only since she has learned appropriate manners & some impulse control that she's suddenly become attractive to random strangers! Oh god I get so worried about this. Heaps of people see my dog and are like, doberman aye? Our last dog (labrador or whatever - some typically submissive breed) was terrible, but dobermans seem perfect... I try really hard to push the point that the training started the second I met the dog, and it will never end.

My boy is a freak lol. Entire male, very protective, but incredibly social. Loves to meet and play with new and old dog friends, and loves to meet new people. Just yesterday, we had a couch delivered, and he goes from not letting them enter the property, not charging them, but blocking the doorway and barking and growling enough to stop 3 huge guys, to the second I appear and say hi, putting his ears back and putting on his cute face, ready for giving and receiving love. But yeah I agree with you, he is definitely the exception. I used to always get so excited when I saw another dobe, thinking mine would like to play with them, but now I don't bother even approaching, because best case scenario, they're totally dismissive, worst, they try and attack your dog. Don't you just love the way they follow your lead? When a strange car comes in, she won't let any sensble person exit it until I'm there AND being friendly towards them. One truckie jumped out before we got there one day and threatened her. Why couldn't he wait rather than risk dog attack? Idiot. I still miantain that if she had been some other dog or breed of dog, he would have regretted it. He later told my DH that he had recently been bitten by a Rottie. I wonder how come? If it's the JWs and I stand back and act a bit offish", she will round up the car and snap at any protruding body part ...until they get the hint. I think our Dobes would play. Jacqui What an idiot. I don't know what would happen if someone tried to threaten him, I don't want to find out. I got a phone call from my mum once when the dog was staying at her house, because he wouldn't let the cleaners in. They tried to poke him a bit with a mop, which he grabbed and dropped and went back to growling at them (I thought that was pretty stupid but fortunately they weren't really aggressive about it, just didn't understand dogs). He doesn't leave the front door, just won't let them cross the threshold if they're unknown. He watches me so closely. He can tell the difference even between a, hi I'm genuinely glad to see you and a well hi, I don't want to be rude but I'm not interested and I wish you'd go away. (The latter don't get the looks of love). The amount of expression he can deliver on his face amazes me and everyone else who meets him too. One guy the other day said he could tell looking at him that he had a soul and that he was a special boy... Such a pity you're all the way up in Brisbane, I would love for mine to meet a dobe he could play with. Dobes are imo the most beautiful dogs so getting to watch 2 playing would be awesome for me. The other day, he was playing with a golden retriever - a chasing game, across a grassy field. There was a river/sewer outlet thingy through the middle (about 2m wide) and when the golden ran down into it, my dobe was going too fast to stop so he leapt over the whole thing, tucking his legs up like a deer. Both myself and the other owner were just speechless. To the person who said that GSD are not only for protection - I get that as well with the dobe. A few people have asked me, so what are you afraid of or do you need protecting from etc etc. I have been obsessed with this breed since the first time I saw them over a decade ago. To contribute to the thread though, most people don't seem to realise that there are exceptions within all breeds, and whilst you can use generalisations to an extent, don't judge too harshly before you've met the dog. I could talk about him all day as you can see, but fortunately for everyone here I need to get back to work

My boy is a freak lol. Entire male, very protective, but incredibly social. Loves to meet and play with new and old dog friends, and loves to meet new people. Just yesterday, we had a couch delivered, and he goes from not letting them enter the property, not charging them, but blocking the doorway and barking and growling enough to stop 3 huge guys, to the second I appear and say hi, putting his ears back and putting on his cute face, ready for giving and receiving love. But yeah I agree with you, he is definitely the exception. I used to always get so excited when I saw another dobe, thinking mine would like to play with them, but now I don't bother even approaching, because best case scenario, they're totally dismissive, worst, they try and attack your dog.

What a handsome dog

Yeah he speaks on command - it's probably his favourite trick after shake. He has a fantastic bark too. I have tried to watch a few youtube videos on training a dog to growl, but they all involve dogs that seem to resource guard at least to some extent, whereas my dog will only even consider doing that with other dogs (not people) and even then he's pretty good about giving it up. I asked though because there was a thread in general about dogs being used in movies, and my dog would have been perfect except that he doesn't know how to growl on command, and some of the other dog owners said their dogs could, in particular, monelite who also has dobermans. Last night I taught him to roll over in about a minute, he learns so quickly and wants to please, but I just don't even know where to start. I was thinking perhaps I could incorporate play somehow, because if we encourage it, he will growl a bit when we're playing tug of war. It's a different kind of growl though from his scary one...

I have a very intelligent and beautiful doberman boy, who easily learns new tricks and loves to perform them. I would very much like to be able to teach him to growl on command because he has an awesome growl, but I just don't know how to go about it. He is not a noisy dog, and typically only makes noise for a reason, and he also never barks or growls at me, so how can I get him to growl?

My dog can play and speak on command, but I can not get him to growl. Don't mean to go ot, but how do you teach your dog to growl on command? My dog only growls when he thinks someone is suss, or when he thinks someone is trying to enter the property. He is not an excessive barker, and teaching speak was quite difficult as a result, but we managed to shape whining into barking eventually by holding a toy out of reach for ages. But when he does growl, he sounds like a bear and even I get a bit scared so it would be awesome to be able to get him to do that on command.

Also sounds like a great way to hurt your dog and do some lasting damage.. Taken directly from the page linked. I'm afraid I'm with Bisart Dobes on this one; if you have to literally hang the dog until it passes out (just to prove to the dog what a clever, big person you are ) in my opinion, you probably shouldn't have pets. If you do happen to have a dog though that wants nothing more in life than to bite their own handler, and then the only way to stop it trying to kill you is to prove that you can kill them... well I don't know but I'm just not sure that that dog has a whole lot to offer. I know some people don't want to give up on their dogs no matter what, but I wonder how much that dog would contribute to society and just as a companion even. And how rehabilitated is it really after that? So your dog no longer tries to attack for the sole reason that it knows you will kill it? "the way they look at it is that you have the power to kill them at any time. This is a big big point in establishing dominance with dogs like this" Personally I would feel like I'd have to be constantly on guard :s I own a dominant breed and whilst I believe it's essential to be dominant over the dog, I don't believe that a mentally healthy dog is only holding back because they're worried you might hurt them... Unless fear is involved, I would question how successful you can really be with a dog that genuinely would be ok with badly hurting or even killing its other pack members - my dog just really doesn't want to be alone.

I'm no expert, I have what I would label a 'social butterfly' who just ignores small dogs that try to attack him and wants to be friends with everyone, who is an entire male doberman (go figure). But still I was thinking about your question as to why he suddenly seems to have an issue with socialising out of the blue, and I wondered if that were the case. Potentially, it could have just taken him this long to learn that growling and snapping at other dogs will make them go away - like the cases on Cesar Milan where they learn to avoid strangers patting them (which they've never been comfortable with) by snapping at everyone, but it takes a few experiences for them to learn this. If my dog didn't seem to enjoy it though, I wouldn't try force him. So long as your dog isn't the aggressor - ie doesn't try to charge dogs that are miles away etc and it's only when they approach and try to interact with him, it's not so bad imo.

Well my pooch goes in public, but not public public - ie, in a bushy section of the park rather than on the street. We taught him no going on lead because he's an entire male and he would otherwise mark everything. Second he's offlead, if he needs to go he finds a bush to go on. It's kind of funny, but often I think he thinks he's going to pee instead because he will go up to a tree, lift his leg and then have to reverse into the tree - so he almost marks when he craps as well as when he pees. He doesn't like going in open spaces unless he has a bit of the runs, which he unfortunately gets everything he drinks puddle water or eats something other than fresh good food (he has a bit of a sensitive stomach). He has taken a few dumps in embarrassing places, like on the street, and the worst is that if he is going there it's because he has a bit of the runs, so it's quite hard to clear up... If he can though, he will still choose grass over concrete every time. And aussie lover I am so jealous of you being allowed to have Mindy at your uni. I snuck my dog in one time, but someone dobbed me in. The librarian actually liked him though and in hindsight, I think she wanted me to lie about him being a therapy dog because she was like, are you sure he doesn't help you with anything? She had a massive list of everything from like epilepsy to diabetes to depression - I wonder if cheering me up counts? He was being so well-behaved too, just lying under the desk. She followed me outside to give him a good pat.