jacqui835

Lol I never said I thought the sight hound owners were crazy, on these forums they just tend to be my strongest and most vocal non-supporters. I have not met any sight-hound owners in real life that I didn't think were lovely. In this thread for example, I started by saying that I was annoyed that people assumed that if you hadn't bought a dog from a responsible breeder, you would have rescued one because I knew in my case I never would have - I would have just kept waiting for the right dog to come along (I'd already waited 3 years). I said that there were particular reasons I wanted a dog and certain things I wanted them to be capable of, and whilst there's still risk no matter what you do, if the breeder is selectively breeding for particular traits and has been doing this for generations, they're more like to crop up in the puppies. Of course at this point, because my dog is not pure, certain people started attacking cross-breeds again and it just frustrates me because I personally believe you can be an ethical and responsible breeder whether you breed pure or cross - just because most examples of cross-breeding in dogs seem to be unethical, cross breeding itself does not equal unethical (eg. and no-one would even try to say that in any other domesticated species other than the dog). I do not promote cross-breeding, but I don't believe all breeders who cross should be demonised - again, they're not with any other species so why are dogs so different? Anyway, this whole topic is very worrying. In my opinion, anyone or organisation that attacks breeders is directly threatening the future of dogs as pets and should the day ever come that we can no longer have dogs as pets, well humans will be so much poorer for it. I don't think my dog hates his current situation either - based on my experiences it is impossible for me to accept that dogs don't want to be humans.

You don't seem to understand dog breeding very well. Your dog is a second generation crossbreed. As long as you keep coming into threads and claiming that the breeding of your dog could have produced the reliability of traits found in a purebreed, myself and others will keep coming in to remind you that you are wrong. By pushing your point that your cross-breed dog has specific purebreed attributes you are perpetuating a myth that cross-breeding will produce predictable traits. Dog breeds were developed through culling and careful selection, much more so than by outcrossing. Your second generation out-cross is not a breed and not a good example to be constantly bringing up on a purebreed discussion board. Please stop with the explanations about your breeder, we have heard them before and it doesn't change anything. You choose to enter so many threads and needlessly talk about your own dog, don't be surprised when people make comments. It tends to be you and a couple of others with sight hounds as their avatars, many others seem to understand and support me either on the threads or through pm's. I find that interesting, because whippets are like the one purebreed dog that almost always out lives cross breeds and has very few breed specific issues. Just as you can't lump all cross breeds together, I don't think you can do it with pure breeds either. I have never denied that he is a cross breed or different from a pure bred Doberman, only taken offense to a couple of your comments that group all instances of cross breeding together and negatively. I am all for the promotion of of purebreds, but I don't support the notion that cross breeding is always a bad thing. I don't promote it, but I do defend particular instances and I stand up for people I respect. I don't believe you're doing the pure dog community any good by bad mouthing others - your past comments such as cross breeds can never amount to excellence etc just breed animosity. I think you should focus on the good features pure breeds can offer rather than the perceived 'short comings' of cross breeds - you just can't group them all together. You can talk about practices you don't support and why, but to make statements that you could never hope to prove are just setting you up to offend. My dog has a lot of Doberman traits as you would expect from a 4th generation cross - there is only one dog in his history that is not a Doberman and that was 4 generations ago.

You bought dogs from the pound, not from rescue, there is a big difference. If the point of this topic is to show that good breeders should not be lumped in with the byb and pet shops, it has been lost on you. There is no such thing as 'pound/rescue'. You bought your dog from an organisation or different organisations and there is no reason to assume that all rescue organisations or pounds are the same or have the same level of quality control. Coming onto DOL to whinge about rescue as a whole just because you had a bad experience with your own dog is just as offensive as the person lumping registered breeders in with brb and pet shops on Facebook. Jacqui you are wrong about health testing in rescue dogs, and you are wrong to claim that your dog was carefully bred or well-bred. Your dog is cross-bred and its genetics are quite random. There is far less risk in adopting an adult dog from a good rescue organisation than there is to buy a cross bred pup like you did from a byb. The special qualities you ascribe to your dog can be found in just about any breed of dog, hence their popularity as pets. However the problems you report having with his behaviour are quite unusual in most breeds and very undesirable. Very disappointing to see people jumping about to vent about rescue, when all prospective dog buyers need to be careful, regardless of where they buy the dog from. Why do you do this in every thread? I'm not going to go into it with you again suffice to say a person can cross-breed for particular traits and have particular goals in mind, there will naturally be more variation expressed that what would be seen from the mating of 2 dogs of the same breed that share more genetic material than brother and sister would in any wild species but we're talking about degrees here, not absolutes - it is after all, how all breeds were formed in the first place. My dog has no behavioural problems, he has now been assessed by professionals and some of the best dog trainers in Australia and will be going for his B.H. early next year and since he picked up tracking first try, looks like he'll be doing that too (I do feel lucky and thank other, more constructive members on these forums for putting me in touch with such great people). If I misinterpret his behaviours to be more or less (or just completely different) than what they are, or you misconstrue what I say, or maybe you just don't know everything there is to know about dog behaviour... well that's an issue you have with me. And it's quite obvious that you have an issue with me, which I find strange, because I actually believe that at the heart of it, I want what you want. When the parents are unknown (let alone the history beyond that), which was not the case with my dog you may be interested to know, there is more risk involved. When you don't even know what breeds are in the dog, there is again, more risk involved. I for one would never want to own a dog that had both bull breed in it and guarding breed, or like a breed bred to retrieve crossed with a breed bred to hunt. All I have to do is look at my sister's papillons and compare them to the working dogs at my club (GSD's, malinois's, rotties and dobes etc) and you can very quickly see the massive differences between breeds - and different people suit different breeds - it's handy information to have... It's true, in my mind all good dogs should be capable of doing what my dog does, but they're good dogs because they have good material to work with and build upon in the first place. My gosh do we have some poorly bred shepherds show up at our club, incapable of anything really in even the most capable hands, thin nerves, fearful, lacking in intelligence and don't get me started on the back legs of some of them. The products of unscrupulous breeding, people looking to make money etc. And who knows when you get a shelter dog what the history is? Now if you don't mind and you're prepared to tailor yourself entirely to the dog you bring home, awesome. Or you just generally want something small and friendly with people and other dogs, awesome, shelter's the go. But how can you on a pure bred dog forum where people devote their entire lives to improving the breed and producing superior animals claim that a shelter dog is likely to succeed in the owner's chosen activity (if they have one outside of being a loving pet) than one from a breeder who has spent their whole life (and capitalised on the time spent by others) selectively breeding better dogs - for that purpose? Several factors go into making a dog the dog it is. Genetics, early upbringing, training, life experience etc and with rescue dogs you may know only some or none of that information. Of course there is more risk with a shelter dog. I'm wrong about health testing am I? Do they hip score? Run the usual tests associated with the particular breed - if they know what breed it is? Where is this rescue organisation you speak of, they deserve way more publicity if they're running these sorts of campaigns and we should all be promoting them in the hopes that other rescue organisations feel pressured to emulate them. Oh but wait, rescue organisations have no money, they can't afford to test their animals - hence the reason very few ethical breeders will ever come close to making a cent from their hobby. My dog has a small amount of rottweiler in it, which is a breed also in the working/protection group, and a breed used in the development of the doberman to begin with so I'd argue it's not in the same league as say the staffy cross everything that make up the vast majority of dogs we see in the pounds today anyway (again I work in greys rather than absolutes and I just know that statement is not going to go down well). What I don't understand is how you can call us hypocrites for supposedly grouping all rescue type institutions together, and yet you group every example of cross-breeding in the same category... I recommend rescue to plenty of people and have seen plenty of happy stories. I would not purchase/adopt a dog under any circumstances where I did not meet the parents myself, meet the breeder, like the breeder, like the parents etc because my dog is too much a part of my life and I'm not prepared to take the risk that I end up with a dog I was disappointed in - maybe I'm a bad person, or maybe I've just been lucky enough to find out first hand what people are capable of producing when they devote themselves to the task. Plus I don't want desexed dogs - I like that little testosterone boost. That's just me. Doesn't mean I don't support the rescues that I think do a good job (because you're right, they're not the same), and now I've managed to get my work to choose one of them as one of our charities too. I don't think I've seen a single comment that in anyway reflected that someone here thinks you don't need to be very selective and put a lot of time and effort into 'adding to your family', so I'm sorry you're disappointed, but I don't know why.

Well buying from rescue is a risk. You never meet the parents, the breeder - you don't know the circumstances of the mating, why they were bred, you don't know what happened in their life before you came into the picture, you don't know about issues that may exist in the lines, longevity (I mean who wants to put 2+ years of intense training into a dog whose family have all died before 6?), no health testing, you don't know whether the parents had achieved or were capable of achieving any working titles etc etc. You have to decide why you want a dog - if it's just for a pet, or hey, like a lot of rescuers I know, you want to do a good deed well then rescue can work beautifully. I take my dog everywhere with me, on holidays, to parties you name it and then I also want to compete in a variety of dog sports - tracking, agility, protection, lure coursing etc so for me and if I didn't have a dog that could do all that, who was also loving and loyal, I wouldn't enjoy the experience as much. Hence it took me 3 years to find the right dog. So whilst I donate to several dog rescues, guide dogs and every other animal charity that approaches me on the street, I am personally not interested in rescue dogs. I don't think people should have to feel badly for wanting to take advantage of what is possible when you buy from someone who breeds responsibly with purpose and devotes their life to breeding better dogs.

Absolutely, jaymatt. On the day I saw the loose, huge (biggest I've seen!) Rottie, I asked the people inside the library to help....& described the dog and the danger he was in. The only men in the library went deaf & almost hid under a table. Four of us women went out to do something. Two librarians, a young woman and me, all experienced & caring dog owners. As I've explained, the Rottie was a sweetie.....suspicious of us strangers at first. But as soon as I crouched & called him 'darling', his face lit up. Here was friends!!!! 'Can you sit, sweetheart?' asked one of the other women. ' Sweetheart' obeyed with a thud, right on my foot!! The librarians led him off to their office to wait for his owners (ID on collar).....using a piece of string as a lead!!! I'm not arguing for people to be foolhardy or to place themselves in danger when there's pretty clear signs of that. But my first impression of the huge Rottie was how well-kept he was, in excellent condition, and wearing a handsome collar where his ID tags could be clearly seen. Chances were, we thought, that was a well-cared for dog, well socialised with his owners. Just like your sister's shepherd would be. We didn't corner him or 'go at him'. And he responded to the cues he already knew so well.....people are OK, especially when they call him 'darling' & 'sweetheart'! That's a great ending, and that dog is just so lucky that you and the other ladies happened to be in the area. Can you imagine what would have happened had authorities approached with sticks in their hands and trying to corner him?

The thing that annoys me is that it's like they assume that had a person not bought from a breeder, they would have rescued a dog. Well in my case this wouldn't have happened. I wanted a dog for specific reasons, I looked for 3 years. If I hadn't found one, I still wouldn't have a dog. For my sister it's the same. We matched her the papillon breed, she now has 2, and it's made dog ownership a pleasure for her. They are exactly what she needs in a dog, she would not have coped with a lot of dogs and yet now she has she has 2 dogs that she thinks are perfect. I know I differ from the majority here because I'm happy with ethical, responsible breeding rather than being fixated on the registered or pure breed part (for working dogs etc), but I spend a lot of time trying to convince people not to buy from pet shops and byb's that have just thrown 2 random dogs together because they a - wanted to make some money, b - thought their dog was pretty/nice etc or c - thought their dog wanted to have babies (and recently have had a lot of success :D which is a nice change). I know a lot of people find their dream dogs in rescue, but dog ownership is such a massive committment and so in my mind it's extremely important if not essential to have the best idea possible of what you're getting into. And that can only be obtained when you buy from a responsible breeder who is breeding for purpose and values and hence discriminating over which dogs they use in the first place. To reiterate my main point though, people who buy particular breeds/mixes from breeders want their dogs for specific reasons, and when you have the right dog, ownership is not a chore or a series of expenses, every day, every moment with my dog is a pleasure and a priviledge.

Agree with this post. Never ignore a dog that is watching yours, stalking you or following you from a distance - that is the time to confront them. If you do wait until they're close, they are at a much higher level and you will have to do a lot more to get them to notice you (or anything for that matter other than their target). I don't walk away from dogs that are off-lead and focused on mine, because you can't out run them so you need to turn around and confront them. So sorry about what happened to your pup though Completely unacceptable.

I am no expert, but I have had 'interesting' experiences in this area. I have a dog who is a very particular eater, and maintains a trim figure, he was the same as a puppy. And so I did exactly what you did and tried to introduce tastier and tastier portions so that hopefully he would be unable to resist and fatten up. Well no, all that happened was that my dog became even more particular. He knows now that there are tastier things out there, so he all but ignores his top of the range Canidae grain free biscuits and holds out for the whole chickens, tuna, eggs, lamb necks, turkey steaks etc that I have fed him in the past. And when he gets those, well with the exception of bbq/roast chicken and bung fritz used for training, he hardly seems to care. He eats it, but not right away. Unless it's bbq chicken or fritz, I can make him sit for a piece of raw meat and then say ok and he usually goes off and does something else. It's deeply frustrating and stressful, but after talking to every man and his dog about it, I took their advice and just decided to relax. He always eats when he's hungry, and he is just happy thin. It's not like he lacks energy or is too skinny, he's just a bit below average but maybe that's normal for him.

Aww I love the foxy look. I'm not a small dog person, but I have a thing for a foxy dog

Omg my dog loves the 'organic' treasures too. He got the MSG pretty quickly though when I wouldn't let him come inside with anything from outside in his mouth. So now instead we have a fine collection of all the best sticks our neighbourhood has to offer at the front door... Just on Pomeranians though, are there really two types? Ie foxy ones and apples?

I think it's beautiful what you have mumtoshelley, but as these guys have not had a lot of experience with dogs, and the only breed they want is a GSD (I stopped them buying a shepherd/cross? from a pet store) I am sure they will face plenty of challenges as it is without adding to the list. A timid GSD would not be an easy dog to manage. All good though, she's meeting up with another breeder this week so hopefully she has a very different experience.

With the exception of needing council approval for one dog, sounds ok. All the houses I lived in whilst in Sydney were smaller than that - it's called taking your dog for walks... Yay about the desexed cats though. There are feral cats everywhere and I've only just started to realise it. When I lived in Woollahra they were all around the chicken shop, same in Bellevue Hill and Rose Bay. Now in SA I see them everywhere too - I have no idea how many there actually would be...

I think that's what disturbs me more having listened to you guys. It's possible the puppies were just tired and so a bit moody but the fact that the mum was the same I now think is not a good sign. She said the owner tried to call her for a while and nothing. She is reluctant to go back because the breeder was already pushing for a deposit so I think maybe, since like esky said she can be a bit picky with gsd's they can avoid taking any chances. I also want her to find a breeder she likes, so she has someone she feels comfortable talking to.

Thanks guys for all the advice - really didn't seem right to me, and not to mention, so disappointing because puppies may be untrained and hard work, but at least they're normally loving and fun. Spoke to her again, she's really not keen to go back. The breeder was pushing for a deposit and she told him she needed to consult with me. I asked her about the crying again and she said they didn't cry continually, just as you went to pick them up. Once you were holding them they were ok, but again no interest, no licking, no play biting which I had told her to expect, no nothing and as soon as you put the puppy down it went away. She said it wasn't hot, but the puppies and mum definitely seemed lethargic. I'm really happy though, my biggest fear was that she'd go back to the petshop since at least those puppies were happy to see her, but she's already back to her list of registered breeders

it is not off topic as this thread is about rewarding good behaviour by both dog and owner and the thread was started in Oct so your dog was hardly much younger and peed on at least 3 different people. Nope. But I'm not going to argue with you anymore, it's obviously pointless and I don't even know who you are or care what you think about me or my dog. It is completely OT - re-read the OP if you need to. I'll help you. This thread is about whether you think there should be incentives for responsible owners, and what those incentives should be - and of course how the whole process should/could be implemented. If you would like to talk about something else, or just attack particular members (which btw in case you were wondering, I feel you are currently doing to me), feel free, but don't do in this thread - you're ruining any chance we have of having a constructive discussion about what I (and obviously many other members) believe is a very important issue. If what you're interested in is instead me and my dog (reflected by your last x posts), just PM me. exactly! responsible dog owners Exactly - do you think they should be rewarded? Who cares whether you think I'm responsible or not, you don't know me, you don't know my dog and I don't know that you're the best person to be assessing us. But how do you think it should be assessed? And by who? I suggested something along the lines of a new title that was awarded on the grounds of your dog passing a basic obedience test and then also a social reaction test - ie do they react negatively to other dogs, people etc. What do they do when you sit down at a table? Ideally you'd want a dog that stays at your side, doesn't react and lays down when you sit down. And of course trained to toilet on command. Once you passed I think you should be allowed to have your dog with you under more circumstances. I think this would be a good incentive for all dog owners, but I also think it would be great for society on the whole to see more dogs out and about not causing problems (not just guide dogs). As is it now, most people seem to think you're the exception if you have the well-trained dog. I would like this to change, and for the people with poorly behaved unsocialised dogs to be the exception. What do you think?

it is not off topic as this thread is about rewarding good behaviour by both dog and owner and the thread was started in Oct so your dog was hardly much younger and peed on at least 3 different people. Nope. But I'm not going to argue with you anymore, it's obviously pointless and I don't even know who you are or care what you think about me or my dog. It is completely OT - re-read the OP if you need to. I'll help you. This thread is about whether you think there should be incentives for responsible owners, and what those incentives should be - and of course how the whole process should/could be implemented. If you would like to talk about something else, or just attack particular members (which btw in case you were wondering, I feel you are currently doing to me), feel free, but don't do in this thread - you're ruining any chance we have of having a constructive discussion about what I (and obviously many other members) believe is a very important issue. If what you're interested in is instead me and my dog (reflected by your last x posts), just PM me.

Go to a dog park, you'll see plenty of people get pissed on. The last time this issue was discussed plenty of people said their dogs had peed on people, just in their cases the dogs didn't discriminate. In my case, my dog only peed on one guy. It wasn't in public, it was at our house. We've already talked about it and worked out it was my fault, but if you guys are determined to go OT and bring it up again... I was so stressed by having the guy around and I own a dog who is both very intelligent and very sensitive to me. As a result, he picked up on it, and to reassure himself, he covered up the smell of the problem with himself. The man behaved very threateningly towards me, I was scared and angry and crying. It wasn't a great situation, but he was a puppy and I had never been so stressed before. He hasn't peed on anyone since - we now live in a different state. I have spoken to the breeder about it, and she said she wasn't really surprised at the level of sensitivity - it's common in her dogs and when she screens potential buyers her main concern is that you can look after the dog for its whole life, as she took 2 back from bad homes and it was very hard to get them to bond to new owners. I didn't think the behaviour was acceptable but he's a different dog now as an adult too. Now at our dog sports club I've told them about it too and they have a different name for it. They say Sammy just has very high pack drive and he is very responsive to me. Now please, if you want to talk more about it, PM me - it's totally OT in this thread.

Interesting. Now that I think about it, you wouldn't think a healthy bitch would be so tired from anything that she wouldn't come and say hello when her master called, so it probably was something else that stopped her coming. My friend said the mum was in a kennel, lying down, and they could see her, but when the owner called her she just lay down completely, like put her head down as well. She said everyone except for the father just seemed quite lethargic and disinterested.

Thanks guys. Didn't think it was normal but I'm no expert. I think it's time to visit some of the other breeders - it's not like there's only 1 and lappiemum you're right, I really want her to have that lifelong support.

Well I managed to convince a friend of mine to buy from a registered breeder rather than a petshop, but she has just come back from seeing the puppies, and instead of the excited phone call I was expecting, she has called and said the puppies didn't seem to like her at all. I'm not a breeder and hopefully never will be (hopefully people keep breeding the dogs I like) so I don't know, but I do remember with my own puppy, well he (and everyone else in the litter) was extremely happy to see me at 6 weeks and then again at 8 weeks when we returned to take him home. They were literally crawling over each other for prime lap spots etc. According to my friend, these puppies didn't really want anything to do with her, or the breeder. They hid when they could, and cried when either she or the breeder tried to grab them. She said she doesn't think they were scared, just really not interested and wanted to be left alone. This was in NSW so I haven't seen the puppies myself and can only go on what she's saying, but she's not a liar or one to typically exaggerate and the whole thing seems very strange to me. I imagine with some breeds that are by standard more aloof you might see a bit of that, but I always thought GSD's would be similar to dobermans/crosses in that they love people - or at least the breeder/person they know? Is this normal for GSD puppies, or should she look for another breeder? She said the breeder wanted her to take one home next weekend but she isn't so keen at the moment... The pups certainly aren't cheap. Some extra points that might be useful: The dogs were kept outside. The father she said was quite affectionate, he was with the pups and mum and would take every pat she had to offer. The mother wouldn't come out even when the breeder called her. She wanted to look at the mum after I told her she should make sure both parents looked good and were dogs she'd want to own, but they couldn't get the mum to come out of the kennel. They did seem very sleepy, they played a bit with each other and mum and dad but lying down a bit whilst doing it. The breeder shows the father, said the mum had a brother who was doing prison work - supposedly a mix of show and working lines. I'd said I'd ask here before I made any judgements because I just don't know what's normal and what's not, just doesn't seem right...

I agree. I thought persephone's response was agreeing with and supporting you, J835. Could you please explain why you thought it was sarcastic? That would be of interest to me (and I'm sure to many others reading this thread.) Sorry, I think was a little upset about a sarcastic remark made in another thread. I think it had more to do with sensitivity at that moment than anything else. I hope I didn't offend Persephone - in her posts she comes across as a nice and very caring person. I guess that's part of the fun of talking to others over the internet - like if it had been a sarcastic comment it wouldn't have been written any differently and I just was in the wrong frame of mind. Life sucks a little bit right now. But all OT. $95 sounds like a good price for desexing for a kitten. Still, my vet is incredibly hot and a much welcomed distraction so maybe the extra $15 was worth it.

Apologies then, and yes I was a bit sensitive because of what was just said in another thread but it had nothing to do with Persephone and so if she was trying to agree with me I am really sorry.

Yes and there are some people you will never convince - alone though we will never make any changes and the public will continue to hold the opinions they currently do of the place of dogs in society, how to raise them and what to expect from them. I think some people are missing a point here. Through an incentives program people could see the advantages of proper dog ownership - and realise that having a dog that is poorly behaved and can't be taken out is the fault almost always of the owner. But if instead of talking about that and how to achieve the goals we all have for our dogs and dogs in general, people would prefer to make sarcastic remarks and shut people down - well, it's hard to have hope isn't it. you're a fine one to talk when you have a dog that goes around pissing on people Many people's dogs piss on people. My dog peed on one person, and there's a back story. He was also a lot younger, he hasn't seen the guy in ages and it also happened to be the person I like least. I'm not saying it's acceptable, but taken out of context it could be used to support anything. If you think that's a helpful comment, and you're happier dissing people than you are trying to work together as the dog loving community to change perceptions and attitudes towards dog ownership in Australia well good luck to you.

Yep ..cat castrations are the quickest and easiest of things ! I can't tell over the internet but are you being sarcastic? I don't know why else you would repeat it like that... I don't know, maybe if a dog/cat has to be anesthetized to have it's nails cut that might be a quicker and easier procedure? That's really all I can think of. I've seen the procedure performed in person - and if you're curious, go on youtube - there's heaps of videos there. I've also seen piglets castrated with no anesthetic - they were from an organic, free range farm and without growth hormones they longer to develop so need to be castrated (with hormones they're killed before puberty). It was literally a 30 second procedure, and then piggy was back with his litter mates. They don't even need stitches. If I'm wrong, it would be helpful for you to inform me (and anyone else reading this thread) of why - I'm not sure who benefits from sarcasm?

Yes and there are some people you will never convince - alone though we will never make any changes and the public will continue to hold the opinions they currently do of the place of dogs in society, how to raise them and what to expect from them. I think some people are missing a point here. Through an incentives program people could see the advantages of proper dog ownership - and realise that having a dog that is poorly behaved and can't be taken out is the fault almost always of the owner. But if instead of talking about that and how to achieve the goals we all have for our dogs and dogs in general, people would prefer to make sarcastic remarks and shut people down - well, it's hard to have hope isn't it.