jacqui835

I think all of those behaviours are unacceptable - and intervene with most. There always seem to be a couple of kelpies who bark almost constantly. The owners seem displeased but not moved enough to actually anything about it, so I just try and stay on the other side of the park. The worst was when my dog was a puppy, he got 'herded' a few times by kelpies in pairs or threes, and there were a few occasions where he got really scared. The little dogs in particular always jump on people, but I've been jumped on by several labs too. We've been sitting on a park bench and had large and small dogs (labs and beagles seem to be the worst offenders) jump all over us. I've had people's kids climb all over me too, and to be honest, that annoys me more than the dogs - and the worst part is you really can't say or do anything about a child, you kind of just have to take it. The only one I'm kind of ok about is the toy. I wouldn't bring a good toy to the dog park, because I almost plan to lose it. Same as a few times, my dog has gained stuff from the dog park lol. Of course you return it if you can, but if no-one seems to want it/own it and my dog likes it well, the park gives and takes... I can make my dog drop something, and a lot of people can't and I do think that's a bit dangerous.

Well I've read through this thread and it's taken some interesting tangents... I would be all for the idea of a segrated dog park - my dog (a large doberman) has enjoyed playing well with a few small dogs, but for the most part, the big and the small dogs keep to themselves and although my dog ignores small dogs unless they instigate play, it's not really something I'm comfortable with. Fact is, even when he's on his best behaviour, the little dogs can get knocked over or whacked by his giant paw and they're so tiny he can hurt them without even meaning to. My dog is very friendly, but when he's at the dog park he does like to go up and sniff everyone (though he's happy for them to sniff him too), and on occasion, the small dogs snap instantly at him. In these instances, he just jumps back and looks at me, I tell him it's all ok and lets keep going, and the owners never say anything. If the little dog follows him back to me (or big dog whatever it is), I make sure that if my dog comes to me - which is his way of saying, "I'm not really happy with this", I resolve it before he has to. This just involves standing between the strange dog and my own, and staring them down while my dog just stands at my side slightly behind it - he seems to get it. I don't even bother asking the other owner to do anything - 99% of the time they're completely useless anyway. If I manage to get the dog to look and acknowledge that I own my dog, well I've never had any problems after that, they just keep their distance, and the whole, you don't need to fight I'll take care of you mentality is reinforced for my dog. I think if my own dog wasn't so large that the only dogs I really fear are staffies/pitbull types (I know it's bad but I feel like he'd come out on top in a fight with just about anything else), I wouldn't be game enough to go to the dog park. I know when I had my sisters' papillons with me, I couldn't relax for a second, so I do understand where little dog owners are coming from, it's just a completely different experience. I would just avoid the park and stick to less popular areas, especially if you're not looking for dogs for him to play with, only a space to play ball. Or if you're confident enough, start approaching the annoying dogs and claiming your dog off them, if you do it right they won't bother you again (and they remember the next time you visit too) and your dog will look up to you for it and quickly get the idea that you understand him and will look after him.

I knew I shouldn't have watched this video and sure enough I now feel terrible. Those dogs did not seem aggressive, they were just being dominant and harassing the beagle. The people weren't even scared of them from what you could hear in their voices - just sounded arrogant and like dropkicks. The cop walked right up to the dog, and was just asking, which one is the problem etc, the dog keeping it's distance the whole time - the cop obviously didn't fear it. It didn't hurt any people or the beagle, so I'm not sure how the killing can be justified in this instance - it certainly wasn't self-defense or use of reasonable force.

Also thinking WTF reading all this.All living things have a smell. People can be one of the smelliest species, get on a crowded bus on a hot day last time I did, about 20 years ago, I got off & walked the 8 kilometres instead. All dogs will have some kind of smell, even if you don't notice your own. Smell can be stronger due to health issues/teeth etc but generally you can expect a dog to smell like a dog, like a person smells like a person. You love them & the smell of them & don't have one if you don't like dog smell. Regular wash & brush helps too. Their sense of smell is far superior & more sensitive than ours is. I sometimes wonder how they cope with the smells us humans create with all the chemicals used in our homes & weird cooking stuff. Sigh. I love the smell of my dog, he does many doggy things that I love (ie he 'dares' to be a dog) and he barks when he has good reason to, or we ask him to. I bury my face in his neck almost every day when I hug him because I love him very very much, and I think he smells beautiful. My problem is that not everyone likes the smell of dogs, and both partner and myself work in environments where smelling like a dog and being covered in fur would just be considered unprofessional and be detrimental to our performance. So we're really lucky with our current doberman that he doesn't smell or shed badly, and consequently, we can spend more time with him in the mornings before work etc. At least in the case of my partner (and potentially now for me too) with our training, there's not really anything else we could do, so we need to be successful in our current roles. We are not wanting our dogs not to be dogs, we are just wanting to maximise how much time we can spend with them without negatively affecting our means for earning an income. I just thought this was a factor we should consider in choosing a new dog, same as you would consider energy levels, exercise requirements etc, so that the dog you bring home is well-suited to the environment you have on offer. Fortunately, I think plenty of people understand where we're coming from. And yep, the worst smelling animal I've ever smelt was definitely a person, but I think you'll find that typically with malodorous people - it's not their fault nor intentional.

Cesar also makes the comment that he's often not dealing with aggressive dogs, just fearful ones. One episode that comes to mind is the one with the 2 great danes that the owners deemed aggressive - but a chicken wire fence kept them back. Cesar was like, if they were actaully aggressive, they'd leap over/break through, they're just scared because they have no leader and they are struggling with all the responsibility they feel (so trying to keep everyone away). End of episode - dog has full trust in him and lies on its back in the pool with its owner holding him, because owner now understands his dog doesn't want to have to worry about everything, so he is setting the boundaries for him and dog can relax. I said this in the other thread. I'm a Cesar supporter because I don't think anyone devotes more time, money, energy etc to the well-being of dogs all over the world than what Cesar does. I think he gets results, and through his books, I have a male entire doberman who's a wonderful and appreciable dog. But I hate hate hate that so many people think they safely and/or effectively implement Cesar's methods after watching a couple of episodes. I wish he put more emphasis on the whole, I'm a professional, doing this wrong can have terrible consequences and if you're not a professional you will probably do this wrong etc etc.

Cesar spends a lot of time emphasising how gentle the 'touch' needs to be. I remember one episode where he was working with a huge man who was doing it too hard and so not getting results, and to demonstrate, Cesar shoved the guy hard and was like, how did that make you feel? The guy actually looked aggressive for a second or two, but Cesar quickly continued, "yeah exactly" and then tapped him lightly instead. The guy turned over his shoulder to look at Cesar and Cesar was like, "now you just want to know what I want." I don't know why people keep saying, "oh imagine if someone did that to you..." How is that even relevant? Are you a dog? Do you think your dog has the same response to things as humans do? The whole reason Cesar claims he gets results with this approach - by distracting the dog that is, is because he claims dogs live in the 'now'. The same can not be said for humans.

As my dog got older, his memory improved. In the beginning, although he quickly learned the names of his toys, he would just look randomly around on the floor if you asked him to get the toy, and he hadn't played with it for more than like 15 mins. But these days, if I say, go get toy x, he runs off to wherever he saw it last, and this seems to work even if we haven't played with toy x for a week or so etc. His memory is quite good these days, and consequently, we don't lose nearly as many toys lol. He also has an exceptional memory for people. I haven't seen him forget anyone yet, and these can be people he only met briefly as a very young puppy. This is a dog who is quite aloof around strangers, so it's a very noticeable thing, and always makes people feel very special lol.

I think that's about the going rate for a good quality doberman. As most people here know, my 'dobe' is not a full dobe, and consequently I got him very cheaply -$350 (we just fell in love with his family and agreed with what the breeder was trying to achieve, but I'm not trying to promote that - obviously it's a personal thing). Point is though, we have been asked on many occasions what we paid for him, and also asked several times if we were interested in selling (not always joking :s) and we started asking people what they think he's worth. Most people have said upwards of 3k. We were also offered $1500 to use him as a stud but of course declined. I would expect to pay that much for a dobe with European/American bloodlines and working titled parents. We are now looking at adding a white shepherd to our family, and will happily pay up to $2000 for the right puppy and looks like we're also going to be hit by transport costs since there are none in SA

Haha my dobe is exactly the same! For some reason he is always desperate to accompany us into the bathroom. We actually had a cat who did the same thing with the door handles - except he used to have to jump and it typically took him several goes to get it open. My dog freaked me out the other day, because I was trying to finish responding to some emails on my computer and he wanted to go for a walk. I was talking to him in a normal voice more quickly than what I would if I were actually talking to him, not issuing any commands or anything and not even looking at him, but I said, well we can't go for a walk because you don't even have your collar on - or something like that (basically I was trying to make myself feel better about making him wait for a walk). Well I continued with my emails, so absorbed I didn't even notice he'd left my side, but next thing he was back, dropped his collar at my feet and put his paw on my lap. He got his walk. Every now and then he just responds to a sentence or something that we've never taught him and it's just like well ok you speak english then...

And did you read the part it was difficult to handle because it was untrained? Majority of its problems seem to be lack of proper manners and training not the fact is has a set of balls. Temperament of an animal comes down to genetics and upbringing more then just being entire or desexed. There are plenty of desexed dogs out there who show the same traits as entire animals either through learning or through their lines. And believe it or not some people prefer the personality of an entire animal, has a bit more pep from the testosterone then the desexed ones can. I prefer it and I dont think I'm likely to own a desexed one again soon. If vasectomies became more popular in Australia and vets actually bothered to do them we might be in the right direction of helping prevent unwanted litters. Instead of throwing beratement down peoples throats, if they want a dog with a big shiny set, fine. Vasectomise so at least they wont cause unwanted litters. As for the excuses of escape, aggression, picking fights etc that has all to do with owner responsibility and little to solely blame on being entire. Again beautifully said and exactly what I was trying to convey. I think the key point to take from this is that a lot of people here (myself included) don't think that people should be told to desex their dogs to fix behavioural problems - I for one have seen this happen several times, and then seen the resulting disappointment when they still have the same problems, only now they've forked out several 100 dollars and their dog requires a new management plan to retain it's figure (most of them seem to get fatter) and the coat isn't as pretty. It's not fair to say to someone with an entire dog that desexing would make their dog 'better' - less likely to play up, less likely to pull on the lead, more obedient etc. It's just not true.

I'm neither interested nor engaged in a pissing contest about whose knowledge or management of dogs is superior. Interesting that its the second time you've suggested that this is what's occuring. Not at this end, that's for sure. I haven't suggested anything you've said is bullshit or dogma. I have suggested that many of the reasons trotted out in desexing arguments are that. I listed examples of such "bullshit". Let's hark back to the post that started this thread Help how? we asked. One response was that the dog wouldn't grow to be as strong. It's an adult dog! Then there was this: Many people posted that this wasnt' their experience with entire males. You're arguing one thing and I'm arguing another. I"m certainly not arguing against desexing pet dogs. I'm not saying desexing has not effect on dogs. What I'm saying is that desexing with the expectation that an operation alone will eliminate unwanted behaviour is unlikely, particularly on an already mature dog. I'm also saying that any view of all entire males dogs as hard to handle is flawed. If this owner needs to be convinced to remove his dogs testicles, arguments with some factual basis should be used. Honestly, if people want to remove every vaguely male behaviour from a dog (and gee some folk seem to) I wonder why they buy males in the first place. Great post, covered everything and worded better than I could have :D

Hmm my dobe is the same in that it's like he doesn't even hear other people, and at our old training club in sydney, the trainer couldn't get him to do anything. He just kept trying to move around her so he could still see me and wajust became obstinate. He will work for me though regardless of whether I have food or toys (although I'd be lying if I said I don't get better results when I do have something). He will start to protest if you ask him to do something he doesn't want to though. Not badly, just whines and carries on a bit if you let him (we find it funny, but always make sure any command issued is followed through). I almost think he knows what he's doing and he likes to entertain/be a bit of a clown sometimes. Speaking of smart though, one thing that I thought was pretty cool is that if he's looking at me and I smile, his tail starts wagging. If I frown, his ears and eyes dip and he looks scared/sad/sorry lol.

I am not campaigning for that. I don't have to offer that understanding in this topic. If people are against desexing, they should not expect me to express my understandinmg here in a thread called Reasons to Desex a Male dog. This topic about this man and this dog. There are good reasons why some dogs should be desexed. I have given them and this dog is one of them. Maybe some of you should start your own topic where you can all be mightily impressed by both your dog's balls and your superior handling ability. sigh. Nothing else I can say to that when it's been taken out of context. Anyway, hopefully the OP got what she needed from this thread - the info was all there imo.

Poor Echo is only a baby though, give him time. My dobe was a slow developer mentally, but now he's a very clever, very sharp dog. I remember as a baby he was desperately keen to please but too dumb, then he got smarter but was no longer so concerned with my needs (teenager) and now finally he's becoming my perfect dog as he approaches adulthood (since they say male dobes aren't really mature until 3 years).

If someone did that to me, I would call it an attack even if it were very gentle. I think they are showing great restraint I would not respond with verbal aggression or by assuming a defensive position. Dogs carry knives in their mouths, they are very good at restraint and physical conflict avoidance. To use a fancy word, we assess our interactions with dogs with an anthrocentric view - a human perspective. How we see it and how the dog sees it are completely separate things. We "construct" ideas about dogs and believe them to be true, sometimes regardless of the evidence. Umm... if you were threatening to attack someone or an animal, I'm pretty sure people would do more than apply a light tap to distract you.

A bad thing is not happening to the dog. They fixate on a person/other dog, ready to go through their typical response of aggression. Words and sounds are not enough because the dog has formed a habit and is in a fight zone. He touches the dog in a non-painful way to distract them, not to hurt them. Result is the dog remembers the person is there, and the person is then able to communicate with the dog again and prevent the undesirable action. Previous chain of events is broken, dog can learn a new response. Just my opinion of course, but I don't think anyone can watch that video and say the dogs look like they're being injured or attacked?

Well this is by far the best post I've read in regards to desexing. An obvious advocate, but supported by scientific method type response. Testosterone does affect mood - but I like the effects. I have known many dogs before and after being desexed, and although the problems often remain (that the person thought they could fix by desexing), the personality does change as you've stated, and I just like them entire. I am not trying to imply that desexing makes anyone a lesser dog owner, merely that entire dog does not equal problem dog and that desexing is but one factor (and one of the lesser ones at that) that determines dog behaviour. It's true, they have a desire to breed. But in my case at least, this drive is obviously outweighed by his desire to please me and to support his existing pack - I would say it's the same as how my old terrier desperately wanted to kill my pet rat, but didn't because he knew it belonged to me (he killed plenty of wild rats, and strangely plenty of our pet mice too, but maybe because he sensed how much I loved the rat, he spared it lol - I was 10 at the time btw). You can find as many health disadvantages for desexing dogs as you can for keeping them entire - really depends on what you're looking for. I found plenty of articles describing the increased risk of bone cancers observed in desexed animals and I guess I believed the articles that said this risk outweighed that of testicular cancer in entire males. Additionally, I'm not keen to subject my dog to a full anaethestic unless he absolutely needs it - I don't think you or anyone else on these forums could meet him and say he absolutely needs (or even would benefit) from being desexed. I think everyone here is pretty much in agreement that desexing is a better default option - there are too many dogs and too many people who can't contain/look after/stop themselves from randomly breeding their dogs. I think all the rest of us are asking for is for you not to campaign to force us to have to desex our dogs, and for everyone to understand and recognise that an entire dog can still be a responsible and safe member of society.

Doesn't look at all like kicking to me... I do worse to my doberman when I'm patting him (and no, he's never in pain).

This is a very good post. My dog meets other entire males for the first time almost every weekend and from hearing people on these forums, you'd think this should mean we would be having dog fights every week. We've had a total of none... How many times has he run away? None. How many times has he met entire females? Too many to count. How many puppies has he sired? None. But he has an awesome can do won't give up attitude, keeps himself trim and muscular and has a fantastic figure with proportional legs and head - there's no way I'd desex him because there's just no need. I advocate desexing for the masses because most people don't bother to train their dogs and wouldn't stop them from escaping and breeding. They don't satisfy their dog's need for a leader and boundaries.Plenty of people back at Centennial Park who would bring their puppies, desex them at or before 6 months wouldl have uncontrollable dangerous animals (and typically they stopped coming at about 7 months). Plenty of people with entire males who came to the park every day and caused no problems. You tell me what the most relevant factor was.

I think you're probably right. Only thing is, my dog seems to like showers. For example, if I leave the door open whilst I'm in the shower and the water is nice and warm, he will come and try and sit on my feet under me. He likes the water on his back lol.

Well I think dobermans should be higher. At least in my case I have a very trainable dog who is also capable of thinking for himself and solving problems. I don't mean to offend anyone, but most labs I meet don't seem that bright, they are just trainable and heavily food motivated. A list of brightest and most trainable dogs would be one I'd want to see. I want trainable and I want bright, and I think that's why I'm so drawn to dobes and GSD's.

If she had NOT adopted that puppy, she probably would have adopted a different dog, as that was her intention. Maybe that puppy isn't dead but maybe another ones is. Maybe she needs to buy the type of dog she was originally going to buy, and keep this one as well, before we know for sure that one more puppy won't be dead. Well, if you read the full post, she was on a waiting list for her chosen breed so I don't think your comment is fair in this case. She provided a home for what would have been effectively either rescue/pound dog (or saved one from being killed) instead of waiting for her chosen breed (the breeder of whom shouldn't be breeding in the first place if they can't look after all the babies). It's not like she went to a pet shop, it's not like she paid any money and it's not like she didn't give the owners a lecture. She did everything she could, without punishing the puppy.

Well said "Breeders" like the one mentioned in the OP's post usually find someone to clean up their mess. Try to remember there is a real person on the other side, would you say this to someone in person? They have just stopped a dog going to the pound (or worse - since lately I've read far too many stories about people drowing the puppies they don't want), and sure they could have rescued one from the pound but instead they're getting one that hasn't spent days or longer locked in a cage (at 7.5 weeks old) and so will potentially make a better pet as a result. Accidents happen, it's not the puppy's fault and they don't deserve any less. You don't teach the indiscriminate breeder a lesson by potentially getting the puppies killed (kelpy/rottie crosses don't have the best odds do they). She gave him a good talking to, there's no more she could have done without putting the puppy at risk.

It is, but it's just such a bizarre reaction. I was thinking maybe they worry that they're going to drown or something, and then celebrate being alive? lol I really have no idea hey

That was very funny, actually made us lol