yellowgirl

Sounds tricky . Does he 'try' to chew softer bones like wings? Not sure if it's the same thing, but Madeline doesn't have any bottom premolars. The few top ones she has are nice and clean, and the gum below feels quite hard. I think she's using those teeth anyway and the gum below has hardened to accomodate the missing teeth. Haha, another one of my famous theories ... but I wonder if it would work the same way for your boy? I just got some turkey wings and they are pretty huge - might be worth a try? :D

Ooooh this is a doozy!! :D http://www.ourdogsonline.com/content/sciencedietscam.html

Hi Trish :D Have you tried bones with your Mr Gorgeous? Sarge has 19 teeth (11 incisors, 4 premolars and 4 molars) and Madeline has 21, they both manage with the bones . As much as I don't like to feed Greenies (and haven't for a little while), I found they worked really well for Sarge's back molars (all 4 of them ;) ). He's still learning to chew properly with the bones, and chicken and turkey wings are the only ones he'll chew properly at the moment. He loves lamb bones but only pulls the meat off with his front teeth and that's it ;) . I don't think the veggies would be the problem with Roger, but more the lack of chomping and chewing to keep them clean :D xxx

Ooooh yeah!! Pleeeeease Troy? (I'm always asking you for something ) I joined a couple of yahoo groups, one group is very prey model orientated (and god help you if you even mention the word vegetable!), the other is a bit more relaxed, but I don't think quite as knowledgable. I like the DOL people here better, so a sub-forum would be great (then we wouldn't have to stray over to other forums, hey Troy? :D ) Tlc, maybe you could try just searing the outside rather than cooking it right through?

Ahh, that's one of those 'can someone with more knowledge than me answer this?' type questions . Personally, I don't think it would effect the weight loss too much, maybe more of a dental concern. But that's what the bones are for :D . Good idea giving him something he can muck around with for longer

Haha! I love that! Sounds luverly

Stitch, I've looked into it a little bit and it seems that dogs with IBS, IBD, pancreatitis, etc would still be better off on a natural, but very simplified diet. Chicken meat seems to be the way to go. As far as bones go, the wings are no good as they are too bony, but chicken breast (bone in) with skin removed is a good gentle way to start. The biggest recommendation is to include good quality animal based digestive enzymes, possibly some probiotics and L-glutamine to heal the intestinal muscle. Start out with little bone, little fat and small, frequent meals. No dairy. I expect that you've already tried different things, but I thought I'd have a look as I'm interested in how other natural feeders handle these situations.

I thought it was interesting too, and I tend to agree with your overview . It would be pretty hard to compare it with commercial dry foods since they tend to use a lot of cheap plant based material to imitate the protiens of real meat to meet the protien level in the 'guaranteed analysis'. So yeah, protien levels might look high, but they've used inappropriate foods for it. I saw his bio at the end too, at least he realised he wasn't achieving the 'hybrid vigour' he was hoping for and concentrated on the diet instead

Yep, sometimes it's just a matter of pressing all the buttons randomly and then taking credit for getting it to work again . I find tapping any or all flat surfaces is another effective 'technical' trick :D

Sounds to me like what you're doing is working perfectly for you and your dogs I do like to hear others' opinions, even if it differs from my own, and I found the naysayer article interesting, but ultimately I think one of these :D is in order . Speaking of getting hung up on the last gram or veggie type, I'm still finding more info for my ongoing research This link is for " A Comparison of Three Homemade Raw Diets with AAFCO, NRC and Prey-Model Standards ... A Macronutrient and Mineral Comparison of Three Popular Homemade Raw Food Diet Plans with NRC and Ancestral Diet Nutrient Profiles; and Suggestions on How to Enhance Nutritional Compliance with Both". Seriously, it's very interesting http://www.seespotlivelonger.com/articles/...0Comparison.pdf

I found another interesting article :D following the lines of (what will now be known as) my ' post #8 theory' based on info from two sources: Canine & Feline Nutrition - Case, Carey & Hirakawa, 1995; and Small Animal Clinical Nutrition 3 - Lewis, Morris, Jr., and Hand, 1992. http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/contrast.html

I just read your other thread huskyheaven, poor Asher . I'm not surprised they didn't like the celery! :D . I don't see anything wrong with small pieces of carrot or apple as treats though. You'll really need to get Asher's weight down for his poor leg, the only way really is to reduce the amount of main meal he's getting. You could always add some veggie mash to bulk up the meal a bit. I think you said they were on about 500g a day. I'd reduce that to 300g with 100g of veggie mash. Kelly Louise (in your other thread) had some good ideas too . Hope all goes well for Asher's operation next week

I'm so sorry :D Run free Benson. You were very much loved and you will be missed

Oh, it is easy! And cheaper. And better for them (in my opinion, I should add ) Don't worry about following the recipe exactly, it could change again by the end of the week! If I'm following my own theory from post #8, then it would make sense that there is not only vegetation, but also grain matter in the stomach lining and intestines of the prey. Soooo, looking into that again now Any thoughts/help on that one Staranais ? (or other post #8 theory followers)

Elfin, I just use whatever frozen veg mix is on special . Others may use more specific vegetables. The main thing is to mush it up to break down the cellulose so the dog can digest it properly.

I just came across this article which supposedly shows proof of why a raw or barf diet is not suitable for dogs. (I can't even remember what I was looking for in the first place now , I think it was something to do with oats.... ) They say "A very small segment of pet owners have accepted the opinions of a vocal fringe minority of individuals who are currently proponents of feeding raw foods. The diet is commonly called the BARF diet, (Bones And Raw Food). Individuals within this group often make unsubstantiated claims that sound plausible but are typically unsupported in fact. The barf diet is extolled based primarily upon several myths claimed to justify the feeding of this diet." I choose to disregard it as another anti-raw opinion, but I'm very interested to know what others think of the theories, particularly the first myth about the genetic connection between wolves and domestic dogs. I thought the DNA had recently been proven to be the same You might want to grab a coffee before you start . http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/barf-myth.html

I'm liking the sound of Green Tripe . I'd be interested in knowing some sources too oonga (I'm in Adelaide). I think butchers, etc would mainly be selling the bleached tripe. I'll add it to my list and ask around a bit "Green Tripe - What is tripe? Tripe is the edible lining and accompanying content of a ruminant's first or second stomach. Paunch tripe comes from the large first stomach and honeycomb tripe comes from the second. Green tripe means that the tripe has not been cleaned, bleached or scalded. The actual color can be green or almost black in color. It should never be white or almost white. Are all types of tripe the same? No! There are 3 types of tripe: Bleached, Cleaned and Green. Green tripe is also referred to as “unbleached” tripe since it has not been altered. Bleached tripe is white in color and has been thoroughly cleansed. Washed tripe is grey in color, had the contents removed, and has only been lightly rinsed and has not been cleaned to the same degree as bleached tripe. Green tripe has the contents removed and is not washed at all. It is the most natural form of tripe because it is not altered at all once removed from the carcass. What makes green tripe the perfect ingredient? There are many nutritional benefits from eating green tripe. It contains a very diverse profile of nutrients including enzymes, omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids, probiotics, and phytonutrients. Green tripe assists your canine in utilizing their food as well, aiding in the digestion process. It can also be used as an appetite stimulator. In cases where dogs refuse to eat their meal it can aid in stimulating the appetite. Diets that do not contain live enzymes put a greater stress on the pancreas and other organs to help to breakdown food. Why is green tripe so healthy? Since tripe is taken from cow’s stomachs, they receive nutrients from grasses and grains that have been already processed naturally by the cow's stomach system. Also present within the tripe are naturally occurring gastric juices, amino acids and live enzymes not found in processed or cooked foods. These gastric juices are excellent cleaners for teeth. Amino acids are necessary for proper muscular development. It is also an excellent source of protein, fiber, fat and delivers equal calcium to phosphorus ratios. Green tripe also contains Lactic Acid bacteria, also known as Lactobacillus Acidophilus which is a good intestinal bacteria and a main ingredient in probiotics."

Thanks all for the organ list. My shopping list is going to look quite disgusting Tomas, sounds like you've worked out exactly what your dogs need . Makes perfect sense not to feed a particular ingredient if your dogs have a reaction to it. I'd do the same thing. Do you think the sardines and tuna I've included cover the fish oil component that's needed? That was the main reason I added them Kudos to you Staranais! You know you might not have a very busy clinic, all your clients' dogs will be way too healthy! This is the site where I found the NRC info http://dels.nas.edu/dels/rpt_briefs/dog_nutrition_final.pdf It's more of a general overview. It says copyrighted 2006, so not sure if it's based on the newer info or just rewritten the info from '86. I saw the price of the new book . Jeeze, it would want to be able to do the vacuuming as well for that price! ;) In your opinion, does my 'recipe' cover everything necessary? Anything I should add or leave out? I'm glad we've got a couple of 'nerds' in this thread to do all the complicated brain work . I like it very simple... this is your dog's tummy, this is what should go in your dog's tummy, congratulations you have a healthy dog Oh, here's another link that I found helpful http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/ I think it was posted on the forum at one stage and I put it in my favourites. It's a nutrient database which tells you the nutritional value of whatever keyword you type in. It also does a single nutrient search, so you can find the level of things like fat, calcium, etc in hundreds of different foods... was wondering if there's anything on the list to help Stitch's girl. I do remember reading something (somewhere ) about natural foods for dogs with IBS. I'll see if I can find it.

You guys rock! I'm really enjoying the input and suggestions from others Cassie, well done on looking at the 'other side' of feeding . Keep in mind that I have hairless Chinese Cresteds, so the amount of fish and added oil might not be necessary for hairier dogs. As long as your boy's getting lots of meat and bones, you can play around with the other ingredients to suit him. Apart from being the best diet for him to thrive, I also find it fun to feed this way, and nothing is more wonderful than watching your dog being a dog chomping on a meaty bone Staranais, I agree with your veggie comments . I noticed that many prey model feeders recommend feeding green tripe, which is the stomach lining of the prey and contains partially digested vegetation, at the very least it contains the nutritional components of the herbivores diet (ie vegetation). I had a look at the NRC nutrient requirement of dogs values that you mentioned. Hmmm, I don't think I'd be too keen to follow some of their 'findings'. They mention that an "adult dog’s daily diet can contain up to 50% carbohydrates" which (just my personal opinion) I don't think is correct. They also say that the main options for feeding are "dry, semimoist, and canned foods" ... no mention of natural foods at all. (this is of course assuming that I actually googled the correct site ;) ). If I remember rightly, you're training to be a vet (yay you!), so you'd be looking at lots and lots of different opinions and data. Thanks Stitch! The VAN suppliment has been doing my head in, I just don't get it! It seems that anything that's marketed by a vet or promoted by a tv celebrity automatically gets the seal of approval, regardless of whether it's actually appropriate or healthy for the dog or not! I agree with your point about everything in moderation. I've decided not to add fruit due to the extra sugar content (thanks Tomas, you got me thinking ). I realise that veggies contain certain sugars too and I may even lessen the amount of those too. In my previous 'recipe' I had the same amount of veggies as meat, so I've halved it already (see, I am learning ;) ) Tess32, bones every day would be great, but Madeline's system just can't handle any more than she's getting, she gets very constipated otherwise. Her teeth look fantastic! ;) What are other good organs? Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts Bonnie Parker, puggy_puggy, Luke W (well, not so much ), tomas, westiemum, Kuntooki, ness and corvus. Everyone's viewpoint and experience is worth sharing (again, not so much Luke W ) and I'm glad we can help each other to give our dogs the best ... only kidding Luke, I think you're funny ;) Thanks everyone! . I'd love to keep the chat going Jo xxx

Thanks for the input and suggestions everyone . I just spent the last hour trying to find certain references! My stupid printer wasn't working when I was researching and I usually print everything out because I have trouble recalling stuff off the top of my head, especially when my brain is filled with so much information! There was a reason I didn't include flax products, kelp or yeast, but I can't find the references . The short, basic reason was because they tend to interfere with the natural balance of vitamins and minerals that's already incorporated in a complete diet. I figured I'd start with the basics first and see if supplimenting seemed necessary afterwards Thanks again for replying everyone. I like to hear about what others are feeding their dogs and why, and it's wonderful to hear that so many dogs are thriving without commercial foods

Thanks guys . You know, I went back and forward with the oats issue. One of the main reasons I added them was because they were a main ingredient in the Vets all Natural blend and supposedly contained a lot of necessary nutrients. But you're right about the carbohydrate issue tomas, and my initial thought was that not only were they not necessary, but won't be digested properly anyway. To be honest, I got swayed by the fact that they were in other products and marketed as being advantageous to the dog's health. Thank you both for the reminder ...(edited) I've also gone back and forward with the veggie 'issue'. In all the research that's been done, and the fact that many are now modelling their pets' diet on the wolf's natural diet, I'm wondering if some of the information on which this diet is based is being dismissed/disregarded? According to Mech, dogs don't eat the stomach contents of large prey, which is his reasoning for the fact that they don't need veggies (and also because their digestive system can't break down the cellulose wall of whole vegetables). The wolves rupture the sac and shake the contents out, however, they do eat the sac itself as well as the other digestive organs which would include vegetation eaten by the prey. They also eat entire smaller critters including the stomach contents, as well as available vegetation and fruit. Admittedly, this would be more of a scavenging or opportunistic meal when a large prey meal wasn't available, but perhaps Mother Nature designed it this way and designed the wolf’s digestive system in such a way that the vegetation they eat is actually an important part of their whole diet? For me, this makes sense. Veggies do need to be mushed up to break down the cellulose walls (as they would be in smaller, whole prey), but I do think that the addition of veggies incorporates essential nutrients into the diet. The veggies are probably my biggest point of contention in regards to their overall diet and I managed to actually hurt my brain looking up various opinions and facts and weighing up all the research . The above is my own theory and at the moment it makes sense to me. I'd be interested to hear other's thoughts on my 'theory' ... edited 28/7 to add that based on 'my theory', if dogs were eating the sac and digestive organs, both grain matter and veggie matter would be included (hence the changes to the original ingredient list)

Thanks Bonnie . Maddie was a bit of a stinker when I first got her, but that was mostly due to her neglected skin. And Sarge had some breath issues due to a couple of rotting teeth. They both smell lovely now Good wun Luke! . Actually, now that you mention it, what used to be quite sparse hair on Madeline's back, now seems to be thicker and faster growing ... thick back hair, not exactly a good look for a hairless princess Yes, that was Madeline. Link to that thread... http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...=168353&hl= The white spots aren't quite as noticable now but many are still there. I think it must be part of the change of her skin going from being so clogged and blocked to more 'normal' healthy skin. It's certainly getting better, and the ABs sure helped with getting rid of the initial infections. I think she has a kind of back to front oily t-zone. Her neck, back and back legs do better with Curash (zinc oxide) powder sprinkled on them, and the rest of her skin does well with a slathering of olive oil. Go figure . Would there be a specific benifit to dividing up the ingredients and giving them separately?

Well, we've done it! Sarge and Madeline are on a raw diet... and processed kibble is completely off the menu now I can't believe how much I've learned in the past couple of months, and considering I ran my own pet food shop for almost 10 years (and thought that not feeding preservatives, additives and chemicals was I knew all I needed to know), I'm so glad that I opened myself up to looking into things further I managed to slowly get the dogs onto all raw (no more cooked meat) and they have bones every two to three days. Here is their current diet... input appreciated I mix up a large batch and freeze it in small packs. edit ... Colour to show edited/added/changed parts of the recipe as we go along. * denotes changes to original amounts or ingredients 2kg mince (lamb, turkey, beef or pork - combo of two) (can also add heart as another nutrient rich muscle meat) 1 kg veggies (minced) (might still reduce the amount - more research -post #8) 3 eggs -whole, raw, including shell (minced) 150g liver (minced) * liver now increased to 200g PLUS 200g of other organ eg. spleen, pancreas, brain, lung, kidney, etc 150g sardines * increased to 250g sardines 400g tuna * tuna changed to salmon & reduced to 200g 2 cups rolled oats (was deleted at first, then after more research reduced to * 1 cup ... still researching -post #8) splash of olive oil * changed to tablespoon of Wheatgerm oil tablespoon of granulated garlic * garlic reduced to a flat dessertspoon 1/2 bunch fresh parsley (minced) (green tripe is looking like a good addition too) Bones every 2-3 days (fat/skin trimmed). Most lamb bones particularly necks; chicken wings or legs; turkey wings. We've had a few issues of trial and error and these seem to be the ones they do best with. Madeline's teeth are almost perfect now , just a little plaque left on one back tooth. Her skin is much improved, although she still gets some breakouts but nowhere near what she was like a few months ago. Sarge had his Dental last thursday and also had a skin tag warty thing removed from his cheek. He had one tooth removed during the dental, but we have a nice shiny clean slate now I'd like some input on Greenies please. They get them every 2 days or so, and they have the Teenie size. Sarge in particular still hasn't got the hang of eating the whole bone properly yet, and I found that the Greenies really helped his teeth in the first few months (they were really bad!). They're one of the few things that he actually chews properly and really gets them onto his back teeth. Here is the Greenies FAQs page... http://www.greenies.com/en_US/FAQs/default.aspx The dogs don't seem to have any side effects or any other problems with them. What do others think about Greenies being included with a raw diet? While doing my raw research, I found that there seemed to be two particular factions who are very committed to their own theories; the prey model feeders based on David Mech's research with wolves, and the BARF feeders who follow the Biologically Appropriate Raw Food theory (Billinghurst). It all gets a bit confusing when even the 'experts' can't agree, including vets! I've used information from both sides as well as looking at info from Lonsdale, Schultze and Pitcairn to come up with my own opinion and my current feeding plan. I'd like to hear other people's input and opinions on their own methods of raw feeding

Awww, your funny kitties are just adorable guys :D :D . Love the puss in the possum box and the horse rider!