LizT

Yes, the DNA tests to determine "true breed" of a dog is often inconclusive (I know of a Cavalier King CHarles Spaniel that tests came back as a Doberman). That is why Parentage DNA testing, which is reliable, should have been used at the time of the inquiry. Really, at this late stage they don't have many options other than "black spaces", although I do like the suggestion one Doler made , in having it state "Dog unknown".

I believe this is quite acceptable in saving a breed from near extention and I would say there are valid and extenuating circumstances. Kind of like in my breed the Cavlier King Charles Spaniel, that was brought back from the brink of extinction, many say other breeds such as Papillion and Sheltand sheep dogs were used in this endeavour. Certainly anything that resembled the "Old type King Charles Spaniel" was used to resurrect the breed. There would be many valid reasons for opening up a stud book but I don't think it should be used to cover up poor management and fraud.

Lovely bubs! Can't get over how quickly your breeds nose pigments compared to Cavaliers. :)

I see where it is not a big deal in breeds that are still being established in Western countries...but I do believe it is a big deal to those that have had Stud Books running for many years. It is certainly a big deal to Fifi who is involved in the breed, and I believe it was stated that cross-breeds were used. If a Stud Book were to be opened to unregistered dogs they should at least pass Classification Judging by a panel of breed experts, and not the whim of the individual breeder. Just my opinion.

yes and bowing to the pressure put onto them by the owners of these dogs. I understand a lot of money might have been paid for the original misbred dogs and their progeny by unsuspecting owners but I would be mortified if one of my greys turned out to be a cross something or other and whilst I might not have been able to afford to replace them straight away I would never breed from them. I would just suck it up for the sake of the breed. It could have been stopped in it's tracks when it first was found out about if the VCA had had the balls to do so. And this was a few years ago? Crazy. What a can of worms. Really, what did they stand to loose in the early stage....just a few refunded registrations if that?? Doesn't make sense. If they were so against it as to prosecute why not clean up the whole mess, not just punish the perps?

If the cost of the puppy was higher than one from the litter not considered a breeding prospect, the cost difference is most definitely arguable if the puppy didn't turn out. It's not just bad luck that a breeder keeps a fist full of money for supplying a dud priced as a breeding show prospect??. True. But whether or not the pup was in fact a higher price than it's sibling may not be information that is easily obtainable.

Congratulations on the new arivals...so sorry you lost your sable girl. Glad all the others are doing well. :)

He is a lovely little pup. :)

Oh awesome, I just love how that tan one is playing and then..plonk...all tuckered out. :laugh: And lovely mumma checking on them. :)

Congratulations Risyntira...8 puppies :) Sorry to hear about the blue/white boy. Hope all are settled and well today.

It really can be a tricky situation. It would probably have to be looked at as a case by case situation. Eg. If you bought a bitch for the purpose of breeding and showing and the puppy did not come up to stcratch as a show dog that is not the breeders fault. If you bought the bitch to bred and she turns out unable to conceive or repeatedly looses pups that also is not the breeders fault is it? A puppy that develops a skin condition after the one to two week period in which the new owner has been asked to have their vet check the health of the puppy might not be the fault of the breeder either. It would depend on the timeline. If I sent a perfectly healthy puppy off to a new home and it developed a skin conditon the first thing I would check is the state of it's siblings.

Sadly you see this kind of thing often enough. I also cringe when I see parents laying into their kids. I feel sorry for both the kids and the parent. Clearly they have been pushed over the line. Maybe the dog owner feels if his reponse is not strong enough others will feel he isn't concerned about his dogs behaviour?? Not condoning it mind you, just trying to understand why one would go over the top like that?

Couldn't DNA parentage testing have sorted this mess out? Oh, I get it, they want the dogs to remain in the breeding program..to what end? It's not like it is done for a specific purpose like when the US infused the Dalmation lines with gundogs.

My Cavaliers do that but I've never seen a GSD do it! Our Bekki does it all the time and no, she doesn't have 0/0 hips, but she's got good scores. Our GSD babies also do it regularly. On the subject of hips and flexibility!! A breeder friend of mine, often told me that she watches her bitch puppies very closely at about 6 weeks onward when they pee. If they almost touch their knees to the ground when they do it, they will have correct angulation in the rear. I'd never heard anyone else mention this, and in truth, her girls she kept all were superior for their breed in that department. I wonder if anyone else has heard this one? Yes, I've seen GSD puppies doing it! But my boys never did as full grown dogs.

Yes, there is that rule, we have it at our park/Lake, but there should be signage too.

Not so far......but I did get kicked out of a pub in London because I had a baby.

Crissy babes at 5 weeks. "can we come out to play?"

If she is serious about her barking complaint they will ask her to keep a "Diary" of when your dogs bark and for how long. I suggest you do the same so that if she does present this as furher eveidence to back up her complaint you can say exactly where your dogs were during the allegded barking episodes. I agree, not a nice situation to be in, especially given the lengths you have gone to to assure her your dogs are not a threat to her.

:laugh: Oh Ruth. :) Maybe Patches is trying to get the kids to come to the party! Remember it's the baby(s) who decides the time of birth. I had a litter arrive 5 weeks ago tonight. First baby arrived and No. 2 decided he would take another seven and a half hours, then No. 3 half an hour later. Now THAT was doing my head in!

They are awesome litlle dogs and would certainly tick the boxes for what you would like...and they are the most cutest fluffy baby bear puppies...

Yep currently have 2 purebred pets with chronic illness. One breeder offered no support at all to me. I didn't expect money but a 'how is your dog, hope you are ok' would have been nice. Buying from a registered breeder is no guarantee they are going to give a shit. Bit bitter, sorry. There is no way to prevent the mutitude of rare problems that can crop up in any breed or in humans for that matter but the point we have been trying to get across in this thread is that if a DNA test is available that allows you to eliminate breeding puppies affected by a particular hereditary problem, it should be used by anyone producing puppies for any purpose, registered or not. There is simply no excuse for any Border to now be born with TNS, CL, or CEA as they are all so easy to control with readily available DNA testing. The testing of the parents makes the puppies more expensive but it is worth the extra cost for peace of mind and even if you don't understand all the DNA stuff, all you need to remember is that one parent must be clear/normal for each condition for the puppies to not be affected. Before we had the CL test all puppies were sold with a disclaimer that the breeder could not guarantee that the puppy wouldn't die from CL between 18 months-2 years. Breeders were trying their best to breed around it, fundraising and research was ongoing and the condition was rare but every Border Collie was still at risk and there was nothing more that breeders could do until we, finally after 25 years, got the DNA test we needed. JulesP has been very unlucky to run into a very uncaring breeder but most of the breeders I know are not like that. The dog concerned has liver shunts and she is only the third case I have ever heard of in Borders, so it is excedingly rare and not something that could have been prevented. In fact I came across the first case I had heard of when researching all the reported possible TNS cases when we started trying to get that DNA test developed. One breeder had a very ill puppy that she suspected had TNS in but it turned out to have a liver shunt not TNS. Owey and Baileys's Mum, I hope Bailey is still on the improve today for you and that the test results will be back soon. I totally agree. With the multitude of problems out there in both the animal and human world if we can shut the door on ANY given disease..more power to us..and then we can move on to researching into other insidious nasties. I heard only the other day that we may be the last generation to die of Cancer. Many Doctors and researchers, fundraisers etc. have worked for a very, very long time to make this a possible eventuality. Lets hope. :)

Yep currently have 2 purebred pets with chronic illness. One breeder offered no support at all to me. I didn't expect money but a 'how is your dog, hope you are ok' would have been nice. Buying from a registered breeder is no guarantee they are going to give a shit. Bit bitter, sorry. Sometimes all people need is a bit of tea and sympathy and knowing that you actually give a shit about a puppy you breed and how it's doing, sick or not. Some people react rather rudely to bad news as if you are about to sue them and go into complete denial.

And also to add...you can buy a puppy from a registered breeder that has done all the testing etc etc. and that puppy is not immune from illness either. Okay, it's not likely to have the genetic problems that untested parents might pass on but that doesn't mean there isn't some nasties out there that can strike at anytime. You cannot guarantee that it wont, but you should be there as a responsible breeder for your puppy buyer, but does that mean you pick up the vet bills? Each situation is unique. Luck (or misfortune)does have a part to play in it too.

All puppies have always cost the same to breed and raise. The registration papers currently cost $29 for main and $22 for limit so if a puppy was sold less the cost of the papers that would be the only saving. I have never understood why papers could cost hundreds more when the registration fee was such a tiny fraction of the puppy price. I think a lot of people who previously bought without papers were shonked by unregistered breeders who were not able to register the puppy anyway. The difference now is that you get limit papers to prove that the puppy is indeed the one you thought you bought. So that is my final word on this as we are getting off topic a bit about Owey's sick puppy. Owey, I hope the blood sample got away and that the puppy is hanging in there while you wait for the result. Did the "breeder" get the parents and siblings tested at the same time? Did restrictions exist in the past for the amount of litters a bitch could produce in a given time frame as does now? Could be a factor if it did. Breeders may have produced "Pet Only" litters that went under the Radar of the registration body. Could be one of the reasons Limited came into being. Maybe in some breeds but not that I was ever aware of in Borders. They are such a demanding breed to have as puppies that most breeders would go insane if they had to raise more than 3 litters a year. There was one NSW breeder that had 10 litters a year but they had a lot of dogs to breed from. A lot of their dogs were also sold at the saleyards so who knows what papers they provided with them. The limit register came in when there was no other way to stop puppies being being exported. Most overseas KCs required an export pedigree to register progeny in their country and the BC breeders were some of the main ones asking for a way to stop them being issued. People would come with a family to buy a bitch puppy as a pet with papers and pay the going rate of about $500 at the time but they were fronts for dealers buying for puppy farms in Asia. The puppy would then be onsold to the dealer for several thousand and the first the breeder knew about it was the puppy would be exported for breeding to an Asian puppy farm. Puppies on limit register cannot be issued with an export pedigree so that fixed the problem until a few countries decided they didn't need the papers. Owey, I am glad to hear that the test has been organised and that at least for now Bailey is improving. I hope that continues and that we are all wrong about the TNS but the symptoms certainly fit a classic description even though a lot of dogs only have some of those symptoms. At present a well bred registered puppy from fully health tested parents in NSW should cost $900 - $1000 from the very best breeders. $500 would barely cover the direct outgoing costs of breeding and raising a healthy puppy, let alone anything for the breeder's 8 weeks of hard work and something towards keeping the mum. Most Border show bitches have 1-3 litters in a lifetime of approx 5-7 puppies per litter and the show breeders usually keep at least one per litter. To break even with the cost of producing the litters and keeping the bitch for her lifetime you would need to sell approx 80 puppies from her so it is never going to happen. If things go wrong with a litter you can be $2000-$3000 out of pocket on that litter alone with no live puppies or maybe just one so $1000 is money well spent on a healthy puppy. I wasn't thinking of Border Collies exclusively...just a general thought about the old cheaper "unpapered" purebred dogs and 'why' they might have been cheaper because 'yes' it will cost the same to raise papered or unpapered LR or MR, UNLESS, some were litters that should not have happened?? Anyway...moving on.. So really hoping Bailey is over whatever nasties got him and it doesn't turn out to be anything that causes him further health worries. Also, must add that I know many people who have Border Collies as family pets that do no organised sports or activities other than the usual fun family stuff. :) Nice to see, as yes, I've seen plenty of BC and BC mixes whose outcomes were not so happy. My sister had a neighbour with two that were in a backyard, rarely played with or interacted with that just barked all day.

I went in to buy a few puppy toys last summer at a Pet Supplies Store. The shop assistant asked me what breed my puppy was. "Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, I replied". :) "Oh, that's a lovely combination" stated the Shop Assistant!! When I told it was only one breed she back peddled and said "Oh I thought you said Shih Tzu Cross Cavalier. Yeah! Where did she get Shih Tzu out of that???