LizT

Poor poodlefan. Hey, you know those key start thingys you can get so your car won't start if you're over the limit!! One for the keyboard....????!!! Don't be too hard on yourself, many of us have been there at some point, although I think yours is definitely one for the new century!

Naughty dog. Are they getting him a leash too?

I would pay the $1500 in heartbeat if any of the Cavaliers I know were screaming in pain, they're not.

Got mine too? Are we outdoors??

Ditto, I belive it is a different spot for dogs from the Kyneton Kennel Club Show?? Follow the main rd into Kyneton from the Calder freeway, turn right into ferguson before you go right into town, Right into market rd and follow around, this turns into Victoria st. The grounds will be on the left hand side. Cheers Rebecca Actually Rebecca's directions are good and you are going along the side and the back of the High School. Thank you.

Glad the little fellas picked up. Good idea re mumma, get the little suckers on too as much as you can, even express some to stimulate more.

Missymoo..what did the Vet say?? How's mummas milk supply, picked up any? Get the other kids on to drink a much as they like, as often as they can. Even express some to stimulate more.

Ditto, I belive it is a different spot for dogs from the Kyneton Kennel Club Show??

As Dellcara says, it is a topic that goes round and round in circles, with all agreeing it is a good idea to do "something". That we are aware of it is a start. I think careful observation (awareness) is a crucial factor in any problem. Perhaps that is where abused children are let down, no one want to 'see that it happens'. Unfortunately your analogy differs greatly in one important fact, SM isn't, (well at least we don't think it is), environmental. I believe Child abuse is. Shortstep suggested breeding only A to A's, hence my diminishing gene pool comment. Let's now let this sit as it is until we have more information.

Same..it's sad when they leave so soon. Missymoo..how is wemanred doing?

And would that be A to A dogs with grade 6 heart murmers, Retinal Dysplasia, cow hocks, undershot jaws, slipping patellars and epilepsy???? Don't throw the dog out with the bath water. i don't think poking fun at anyone helps. bet has obviously felt the burden of having dogs that have this disease and that cant be easy. this post is accessible to the public because it is in the news section so remember everyone who wants to can read this. maybe we need to start taking this seriously and not sticking our heads in the sand. the problem cannot be so overwhelming that nothing gets done. Who's poking fun?? I'm deadly serious. Clearly we wouldn't want to use any animal with these defects thus depleting the gene pool even further. SM won't be the demise of the CKCS, over reaction and an attempt to "legislate" a way out of the problem will be. So here's a hypothetical for you. What if...and this is a what if.. An enlarge syrinx is an anomally of the breed and peculiar to it. Somewhat like a Cavaliers blood platelet count. You know the one where a cavalier has larger sized and smaller amount of blood platelets than other breeds. This is an innocent anomaly for the CKCS but would be considered abnormal in other breeds. One, not knowing this could think that the dog has thrombocytopenia, which of course it hasn't. So what if this enlarged syrinx, on rare occassions manifests as SM, causing upteen problems in that poor individual dog, due to it's skull structure of whatever reasons cause one dog to be affected and not the next. Cavaliers do have a number of pecularities distinct to them. They bum scoot despite not having any gland problems or worms, why? Because they do. They like high places, and enjoy perching like cats, yet they are dogs. Clearly more research needs to be done before we start making 'rules' about which dog A, B C or D etc. can be bred with which dog A, B, C or D and who can breed with whom, regardless of any syptomatic disease in it's pedigree. So no, I'm not poking fun.

And would that be A to A dogs with grade 6 heart murmers, Retinal Dysplasia, cow hocks, undershot jaws, slipping patellars and epilepsy???? Don't throw the dog out with the bath water.

thanks Jed for clearing that up. yes i think if the dog is not affected and is a pet that is a good outcome. i think we just need to make sure that we don't breed with affected dogs because otherwise i think eventually the breed may die out, or am i being too dramatic? if we could try to stop this now before it becomes too big to stop then i think this would be good also, what if we do have something here in oz that we can offer the cav gene pool in other countries, shouldn't we try to help? I agree also, but I don't feel we will be needing to "resurect" the breed yet again this century. Albet awareness is half the battle. You would be surprised how many old time breeders have only just heard of, and some not at all of SM. Also never encountered it either. They may be holding with the old addage "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

I only know one breeder personally whose dog has produced 1 sm offspring. Dog probably has sired 300+ if not more pups, though. Well known show dog. No one else I know is admitting to any. Some people I believe, some I don't know well enough to believe. The "old" retired breeder I am in contact with - highly respected, and very well known, showed, imported some very well known, well bred dogs has never seen SM. Has heard about a few dogs with sm over the years. Not many. This breeder travelled interstate to show, so would have had a good idea. Breeder is not lying - just passing the truth to someone who is interested. My old stud dog didn't throw any SM affected pups. The current dog who is 7 or 8 has probably thrown 100+ pups approx. The youngest of these are 12 months old (not bred by me). My dog is the product of champions and g/champions from "old" lines. I bought him because I like his parents and his dual grandfather and I liked that they all died of "old age", and his parents are heart clear over 10. Unfortunately, he was a bit too big to show. Luckily, he throws lovely pups, to the standard size wise,and has had quite a lot of use by others who have seen his progeny. He is also heart clear, and his patellas cause vets to swoon with delight. Most of this breeding was done before anyone much was worrying about SM, so he was not scanned. At the time I was concerned about not introducing LP or MVD into my clear lines. Last year I decided he was probably an "A" - for no good reason except that I think so. I had him mri'd earlier this year. The scans have not been read by a specialist neurologist vet who is familiar with SM, so I don't have a definitive answer. However, they have been checked out by specialists, who think he is free from any signs of anything to do with SM - in other words, an "A", but obviously I can't advertise him as such. There is no sign of syrinxes. The mri encompassed quite a lot of the spine, not just the head. I don't advertise anyhow, and I do not stand my dogs at public stud, so that's not important. I probably wont bother having the scan officially read either. My curiosity is satisfied. Problem with 1 in 4 pups having SM is that you can breed 400 clear and the next 100 all have sm!! This will probably earn me some abuse, but having commenced breeding long before there were tests for anything, I am inclined to go with the pedigree, how visible the ancestors were, how they were perceived, how they fared health wise, as well as the integrity of the breeder, and use the various tests for back up. I don't think we should be using sires simply because they are rated "A". I think there is a lot more to SM than we know - have no idea what, I am not that clever Unfortunately, many breeders are walking away because of the uncertainty, and the cost of testing which doesn't give a definitive guide. I breed cockers too - they can be afflicted by FN (fatal) - however, a test was developed a few years ago, which takes the worry out of it. The dog is either clear, carrier or affected, so you can choose from available studs, knowing their status, and knowing EXACTLY what the status of the pups will be. Obviously, you aim to breed pups which are not affected. This is what breeders ask of SM researchers, and until that becomes available - if ever (remember, they haven't found a mode of inheritance for MVD yet) breeders need to use every tool at their disposal to attempt to produce pups which do not have SM. Jed, This is a scenario that I'm sure is replicated throughout the dog breeding world. If I were you I also would be satisfied.

hi LizT Unfortunately it is NOT a "once off". The experts say SM is "late onset". A scan is recommended at 2.5 yrs and then again after the age of 5. 12months is the minimum age for grading. Some breeders overseas are scanning at 12months, 2.5 years and then again at 5 years. LATEST NEWS ON SYRINGOMYELIA IN CAVALIER KING CHARLES SPANIELS. This is Great, what a Sensible Discussion this has turned into. I had not understood the Post about whether any A to A's had produced no SM Cavaliers, but I will try to get an answer to this. There is to be a Cavalier Seminar here in Britain on Saturday ,I will try and get some one to ask about this. Bet Hargreaves Great Bet, that would be useful.

hi LizT Unfortunately it is NOT a "once off". The experts say that due to "late onset" a scan is recommended at 2.5 yrs and then again after the age of 5. 12months is the minimum age for grading. Some breeders overseas are scanning at 12months, 2.5 years and then again at 5 years. Then scanning could be quite academic. A bitch for example might produce 'signs' on a scan after she has finished her breeding years, despite 'clear' scans at say, 2.5 years and 5 years of age. What then? Certainly a Dog standing at public stud, for, how many years is likely?? Would be a better indicator for research purposes.

There are already some breeders who will not use unscanned dogs, and there are others doing their best to be within the current protocol. There are quite a few "A" graded Stud Dogs around the country. No breeder I have spoken to here that I know has MRI'd dogs has "hidden" the results from others. Dellcara, is scanning a "once off' or can results change over time?? Just thinking in terms of costs.

This is true but it would still be good to know the status of all possible info when you are making decisions. Absolutely. And hopefully with the more scanning being done the more affordable it will become. Unfortunately it's not just the scanning costs that are the problem, there also has to be a technician who knows how to read results accurately. No-one will benefit from incorrect data either.

Unfortunately we also must take into account the fact that not every dog that is 'cleared' via scanning is necessarily going to be a good candidate for breeding, curtesy of other issue besides health, including conformation faults for eg. There is a great risk of a shrinking registered dog gene pool that could eventually do more damage than SM ever would. That then leaves "natural selection" among the BYB's dogs. And 'those that control things and think they know better" left calling for the opening of stud books to unregistered dogs to increase the gene pool. A real can of worms IMO.

You know, I really don't think dogs like being "hugged" in a human way. I think most just 'tolerate it" because they are used to tolerating most of the "weird (to them anyway) things people do to them.

30,000 puppy buyers will be told no testing is done. What are you going to do about that? I think you should try petlink or gumtree, spread the message there Exactly...the registered breeders I know all heart test there Cavaliers annually. It is by this example set by member of the CKCS Club of Victoria that I, as a new breeder have learnt the best health protocols to adopt. Rest assured Bet, we are not behind the 8th ball in this. Therefore we are attempting to take all steps available to bring things under control here and don't need anyone to contantly remind us of this, as we do have the best interests of the breed we love at heart. Perhaps it's time to stop preaching to the converted and go earbash the BYB's. Finding them might be a bit of a challenge though.

That does leave those exporting with a worrying problem then.

They needed a study to work out what most people should already know! NEVER, EVER leave a dog and child alone together. I don't care how much you trust your dog,just DON"T do it. A child needs contant supervision and moreso when with an animal.

Perhaps informing you that I have been breeding cavies longer than Jed that I have been a member of this forum longer than Jed will give me the right of free speech without assumption working at every turn I am happy to be told which dog NOT to mate if only I could find ONE other than my own which has been scanned that could be used for breeding Why bother going under the guise of a Junior new member? What do you hope to achieve? All opinions on this forum are valued, just not always agreed with. That's what makes it so valuable. You needn't pretend to be someone your not in the hope of having your opinion valued. Your fears for the future of this breed is shared but I don't believe it is as hopeless as some would have us believe. There are many, many, Cavaliers out there living to ripe old ages, bearing offspring that are doing the same. All with no evidence of SM to date. A scan could show conditions that could be suceptable to the disease in dogs that may never ever have the condition themselves. Possibly eliminating healthy dogs from an already decreasing gene pool to no good effect.

Exactly Steve, it goes back to the breeder doing his homework and understanding the history of his breeding, just like the old days before the advent of medical science, which is a wonderful 'tool', but not the only answer to the problem.