Flick_Mac

I also think most (not all) farmers are more desensitised to animal suffering than vets will ever be.

Our salaries also need to be taken into account. Very low compared with medical doctors - I certainly couldn't afford to be paid virtually nothing in an intern year. Our fifth year at uni is this anyway essentially - we only have a month's worth of lectures, and the rest of the time is spent at the university and private practices. Unpaid I might add. Another year of this in my opinion would significantly cut the number of vets graduating purely because of financial constraints. Not only have I completed this 5 year degree, but have another 4 year degree before I decided I wanted to try vet. I also want to add that virtual learning has a very valuable place, but it does not compare to doing it for real. We do cadaver surgeries prior to our real surgeries, but, as I've mentioned before they are COMPLETELY different. I don't think there's much point in this thread continuing, as the use of dogs is not happening or will be phased out in the very near future. I also wanted to add that I'm insulted by the notion that we're hardened and desensitised to the suffering and death of animals. I've dedicated five long hard years to learning how to treat them. Yes, there have been lots of animals that have been used in the process (all from pounds, abbatoirs and some times our pets), but none of those animals have been anything less than respected and thanked for their sacrifices.

Staranais - We've now been told that the pound dogs we get should be euthenased before being sent to us to minimise stress (fair enough), HOWEVER I think this will all but kill our adoption program unless they send out personnel to do temperament tests at the pound (2hrs or so away). I'm not sure if they'll do that, but I'd be very upset if we couldn't rehabilitate some dogs and save them from death row.

Aussies are a working breed! Problem solvered!

TD - I don't see how the dog would act any differently at the shelter before it is PTS? The ones I've seen are no different. The dogs I've interacted with at uni (not for surgery pracs, but for anaesthesia and other pracs) have been 100% happy (read PULLING ON THE LEAD UNTIL THEY ARE BLUE) to come into a room wih 40 attention givers.

Sparky, I'm not sure that was an issue as some of those dogs were coming from Logan and even further (you might be more in the know than me). They are also (were also) sedated to ease any anxiety due to transport, and were in an airconditioned trailer. I would assume we're using our own piggery pigs, but I think it's worse than using dogs, as they are far less used to being handled and we can't pat them or comfort them before they go under. The stress they go through in my opinion is far greater than dogs would experience.

Turkishdelight - it's not a matter of who cares about these animals, let's kill as many as we can. The view I and many other vet students I've talked to take is that these animals are being PTS because of a bigger problem, but they can be an invaluable learning tool to use to people who may be part of the bigger solution - we will be educating people on why they should desex their pets and being able to perform this safely for example.. AND (most importantly to me) they will not feel, nor be conscious of anything that is being done to them.

Yep - but it's not 0.... I'd be very very nervous if it was!

Anne - I think the lady who runs the whole centre is a qualified behaviourist (and very experienced) and she basically has a team who assess(ed) the dogs as they came off the pound truck. Any puppies were usually sent to the RSPCA as they go to homes quickly, and sick, aggressive, unrehomable (ie owners stated they wanted euth) were euthanased. Any dogs that they felt were rehabilitatable (if that's a word!) were put into non-invasive trials or kept as part of our 'colony' of dogs that eventually are rehomed. They get used in pracs such as physical exams, radiography etc - and our interaction with them is part of their environmental enrichment. They are also given training while they're with us and rehomed to make room for another pup. Bartok - as I said before I've just done my first surgery with live tissue and it's COMPLETELY different. I would not feel comfortable at all doing my first live surgery on a dog that had to go out and run around and live it's life. PF - We do actually do recovery surgeries before being let loose on pets. We help with desexing for the AWL and RSPCA (I believe) and I also (think, don't know 100%) that people can get very cheap 'student spays' for dogs which are 100% supervised. So we will have had some recovery experience, even if it's only a tiny amount!

Cadavers are greyhounds donated by trainers who we euthanase, or they did come to use live from pounds - when we then assessed who was rehomable and who wasn't. The ethics board has now recommended that the dogs are euthanased before transport, so I'm not sure what will happen to our adoption program ;) The pound I think was happy to keep sourcing us with dogs, but the protesters were making their lives hell by camping at the pound and abusing staff members (or so I was told). Uni knew we'd have to stop using dogs within the next year or so, but the rug has been pulled out from underneath us way earlier than we expected (ie. no transition period - one week we'd have dogs, the next it was pigs).

Having just performed my first live surgery on a pig (because UQ is no longer able to source dogs) on Tuesday I can tell everyone who hasn't performed surgery that it is TOTALLY 100% different to performing it on cadavers - which we do as well. I hate doing the quotes thing but I have some points: - our pig got some out loud thankyous as he slipped away, as well as being patted and stroked - I was SO glad that it wasn't a recoverable surgery or the poor thing would have had a horrible peritonitis. It's so hard to learn how to pass things around, and hold instruments, stay sterile and manipulate tissues, especially when they move, contract, pulsate and bleed - out of a group of 4 students 2 were anaesthetists and 2 surgeons, so we learned as much as possible from 1 animal. - we only do 3 or 4 of these pracs so the number of animals used for this practice is as minimal as posisble. - our facilities are one of the newest in Australia and the best according to some people i've talked to - with a live animal you can SEE if you cut something you shouldn't. Or if what you ligated was done properly. If this happened on a recoverable animal maybe I wouldn't know how to stop it, and I'd just panic. I'd much rather those things happened with something that will never wake-up to feel post-op pain. - PF - we didn't ever have a 'colony' of dogs. They came from the pound, we temperament assessed and placed some into an adoption program, and some were used for teaching. This issue makes me furious as I would be before the vet surgeons board in a second if I came out of uni and was so inexperienced yet still expected to be able to perform a surgery where I take an ORGAN out of an animal (ie a spay) on day 1. There are 4 major blood vessels that can be cut and will lead to death if this is not done properly.

Very nice Beth! Was just doing some refresher work with Louie and he's doing mini retrieves inside now! Even better he's figured out how to sit with the dumbell still in his mouth!

GG when I've finished vet I'll have done 9yrs at uni in the top HECs bracket (a honours science degree before vet).... yikes! Thank doG for concession! Keep on me K&P to register - I'm going away for Easter and will do it when I get back.... I'll have a better idea of exams etc when I get back. I think it's a go though! What's the deal with fundraising? I'm not sure how much time I'll have to do any of it... but if it's easy I might be able to!

Hi girls, I don't want to commit 100% yet, but if I'm free (I shouldn't be working) then I'm in! How much is registration? I'm sure I can get myself an old red shirt somewhere so am looking forward to it! I'll probably bring both my boys, and might be able to con someone in to being an extra handler!

Have you considered having the Kennel Cough vaccine done annually? I'm on the 3 yearly schedule now, but my dogs will be getting the KC vax as it doesn't have the same period of protection. (This is the one that goes up the nose). Maybe they would accept a KC vax? My regular vet has written on my vax certificates "next vaccination due in 2013 as per the AVA recommendations" or something like that in case they're required to go into boarding facilities. Apparently this should be enough for them to be accepted, but I don't plan on boarding them so who knows!

Hope you guys had a good time - I was jealous from my bed! As long as I've got decent notice I don't usually mind when the meets are! Photos please!

Ugh - I feel like throwing up... I think it might be food poisoning, so depending on how I feel I might spare you guys from being around me today! Have an awesome time if I don't show though.

The dog park itself can be reached if you follow the road inside the park - it's a bit tricky to explain. If you've got someone's number it'll probably just be easier to call if you get lost!

It looks like *fingers crossed* we can pop in for an hour or so before I have to head out to an agility foundation class at Ipswich. Yay!

Just wanted to correct something - Revolution is actually Selamectin (same drug family as Ivermectin), and Advocate does not kill ticks - only Advantix (there's an extra ingredient in there). Good luck with your pup - people are really just trying to make you realise the potential health problems you're up for as your pups parents haven't been checked and cleared. It's a good idea to be aware and may make your source of a pup change for next time.

Rappie - I thought I'd HATE anaesthesia, but I actually quite like it. We have a bit of a dragon as our main lecturer, but she won't let you get away with 'I don't know', which is good too! And all of our tutors are pretty damn good too which makes things so much better. Oh, and we're down to very small groups which helps a tonne! I got to induce a dog with Alfaxan at uni the other week, then other people had a go attaching monitors etc. 4th year is WAY better than 3rd.... it feels so much more relevant! I really feel like a 'baby vet' which is what we keep being referred to as! (Sorry for abbreviations Erny, and going OT!)

I'd have to agree with Stormie, Rappie, and Staff'n'Toller... We're just learning anaesthetics at uni, and while we're being taught what is currently considered 'best practice', including IV catheterisation etc, a lot of us work for vets who don't do what we're being taught. Our anaesthetics lecturer tells us that people get very good at using whatever it is (Thio, draw-over breathing systems etc) and wouldn't be using them if patients were dying. We're also being taught with less than the best systems (in fact we have to learn to use about 4 different types) and use different induction agents, because we don't know what will be available to us at our first job. I agree those prices sound ridiculous, but if the vet has been using Thio for years and years I'd rather them use that on my pet than a drug they're less familiar with.

That's awesome Rappie - we're just getting into the juicy pracs... we have an anaesthetic one where we're knocking dogs out, putting them on iso then waking them up again. I know a few people who've already gone had dogs wake up on them and were quite happy, because now they're comfortable if it was to happen in a real patient scenario.

We are just doing anaesthetics at uni at the moment... learning about all the drugs and the anaesthetic machines. In fact, today, in another prac we had dogs under purely by IV drugs (not sure what they were using... we weren't monitoring the dogs) and they had to be very closely watched and topped up with IV anaesthetic agent every 20 mins or so. I definitely prefer using gas!

Yep Toowong.. but like I said I'm still not 100% so if more central people are going then go wherever!