Starkehre

Hi guys, I am only trialling one bitch at the moment and still at a very low level, but have come back into obedience after being out for many years doing agility and conformation, so feel that I am probably a little under qualified to make suggestions..... but if I may, I will tell you what I do with my bitch to keep her in drive. I train her with a remote reward only. I used to use food in hand whilst heeling etc, but it got to the point where I could not put it down or we lost all drive. So, we started with very small session, remote reward must be substantial (i use a chicken wing for my Rotti). I switch her into drive with"gunna work" and showing her the remote, then I put it down nearby, she knows it's there. We hurry over to our imaginery post, she is watching me as she is waiting to be released to her remote reward. We started with small heeling pattern, mark with "yes", the release to remote. She scoffs it, we roll and play, then finished. Each day I would work it up a bit... more exercises, remote further away, not even showing the remote (ie leaving it in the fridge and switching her on without it, but she still knows to race back home to the kitchen when released). So, she stays in drive during entire test. She knows her remote is waiting back at camp outside the ring and she runs to get it when we leave the ring and I tell her "ok, go yummies". What was really cute after our last trial... after we got home several hrs later, after all the socialising and packing up etc, we came into the house and she still bolted to the kitchen for her ezxtra remote... of course I gave her one cause that was OK. So, you can extend the drive and remote rewards as much as you need to. and of course if your dog isn't that driven by food, you use your primary motivator which might be a toy or rope or whatever. Regarding the dog not giving you it's attention when waiting at the start post, when the judge says "are you ready" say "no". I do. If for any reason my dog has lost attention and is looking elsewhere, which is rare cause she is very keen to finish the exercise and get her reward, then I simply say "no", and do what I need to do to get my dog's attention.... like "watch" or "ready" then I say to the judge "yes". the judge will wait. they will not start til you tell them you are ready.

Definitely possible Cuchulain, my dogs all know about the sometimes command. It can take a while to achieve, so in the mean time ensure he cannot jump up by himself until he is asked. ie on leash whilst in the bedroom or approaching the bed. I will add, (and you are probably already aware of this anyway) at 13 weeks even if he can, pup should not be allowed to jump up or down off your bed. He should be lifted both ways, particularly down as to avoid injury and damage to growing joints, bones etc. He is a large breed and any jumping should be left til he is 12 months of age or when his growth plates are grown over, which could even be later than that. Enjoy your bed cuddles, they are lovely aren't they?!

Still thinking of you Boke.

OOHH goodie PF, can I please order one of the rare blue 'n' tan Rockwheelers, if you can make me one of those, and if they are naturally obedient, can I please have one born with obedience titles already too. And while you are at breeding with titles, can you make sure it also has a few titles from a few different disciplines and include conformation as well. ta muchly.

Bokezu, when you are up to reading, I popped something up in our Rotti thread that you might like to read.

Bokezu, what a sad sad loss. I am very upset to hear Jordy lost his battle with IMT. ;) What you have been through in the last few days has been nothing short of tragic and gut wrenching. I so wish that it had not ended this way. My love reaches out to you both at this time. You did everything you could to save Jordy.... sadly it was just not meant to be. Spread your wings Jordan You were a very brave boy, and your mum knows you tried your best to stay. But God has other bigger plans for you now. Be free and timeless over rainbow bridge and please give our love to all the other beautiful dogs that have also sadly passed and left their owners behind.

Tomorrow Jordy will have a turn around, it will be his day. Dyz was the same Boke, she knew she was staying at the vet each time I visited. I noticed it also, and thought it a strange thing. The dogs are amazing aren't they. Hope Jordy enjoys his big cage tonight and sleeps well.

Ironic both of you mention time of year, both my girls and Berty's girl all diagnosed Jan or Feb, so hot weather. I wasn't going to mention that as I wondered if it was far fetched, but now you mention it, I thought I would add it in. :D

I think your Ruby's was probably primary FD. Sorry didn't go back and check earlier posts again, but wasn't she diagnosed quite some time later with lymphoma. I don't think it is likely her cells were abnormal when she had her ITP. If ITP is secondary the abnormalities would have to have been so much so that the immune system detected them, if you follow me. Now if the vets could not detect anything with their testing, I doubt her immune system could have, at least to do with lymphoma. Also, the vets told me that any underlying cause to secondary IMT would show up if the dog did not pass away already within max 6 months at the most, as it would have been that developed. So, and of course this is purely speculation, I am thinking Ruby's lymphoma was coincidental or that maybe it is secondary to having an ITP previously for some reason or even drug related from the IMT. Who knows. So possibly a link, but maybe not the way you are thinking? does that make sense?

Horses and humans can also get it. and yes, definitely most common in middle aged bitches. That is one of the reasons I was so surprised to hear about Jordy, and thought it may have been secondary, but then he is so young to have one of possible secondary illnesses to bring it on. Possible, but you would think unlikely. but then, as boke has said, they have ruled out secondary anyway.

Yeh, I have also heard Poodles and OES, but I have not known of any of these with it, but I have heard commonly Cockers, Rotts and Dobes, and have known several of each of these with it, mostly Rott, but that is probably because I move in those circles. Once again though, they are not getting it because of their color, but that these colors or breeds seem to be more likely to have the predisposition to contract it if they come into contact with or ingest oen of the likely causes. Very full on disease.

Great news Boke. I am sure he will be thrilled to see his mum.

Another sort of weird but really interesting piece of information that was given to me by at least 2 vets that I can remember is this... (and this is from those who go regularly to the states to study and over there there is a lot more information on this disease) with IMT there seems to be a link to black or tan or black and tan dogs, therefore they are saying that it is quite commonly color related. Obviously not all dogs contracting it fall into this category, but apparently it is the majority according to what they have told me. And Berty heard the same thing also, and used different vets to me. Some great old posts there FD. good of you to bring those back.

Dyz was diagnosed with IMT on sat 10th Feb 2007. She finished all meds approx June, so she has been recurrence and meds free for approx 17 months. She was desexed in July last year, shortly after being taken of the meds, as the hormones during seasons can bring it on also. We knew she was near due to come into season, but we were so scared to desex also because of the anaesthetic. But we decided to go ahead anyway. The specialist did it for us and they spent extra time ensuring all small blood vessels were closed off. She was given morphine during recovery, no anti-biotics and had no side affects. She recovered well, with constants blood tests. She has just started trailling again also. Dyzney will never look the same again, but we don't care. She is alive and well and she is our little miracle girl. From what you are saying, I would be very suspicious about the insulation and the round up. Don't believe what vets tell you about what is and isn't safe, because no one knows. I am not saying they are intentionally lying, they just cannot really say because it is unknown. It is not necessarily drugs that are poisonous or harmful on that level. It is about the dog carrying a predisposition to some sort of environmental component setting off it's immune system. As I mentioned earlier, thousands of people use rimadyl everyday on their dogs with no ill side affects, yet we had one. Same with Stibestrol. someone I know, their rotti contracted it when walking through a grape plantation several time during a peiod of a few weeks, and there had been pesticides sprayed heavily in the area... that is why they believe their dog got it. another friend's dog was swimming in a dam that was later found with blue/green algae... she suspects this is how her dog it. One of these dogs died and the other I am unsure about. You may never know Boke, but it would be an idea to totally eliminate any possibilities just to be on the safe side. How is he this arvo?

Hi Bokezu, when we had Ruby PTS one of the reason was because the specialists told us there was probably a 25% chance of her having a full recovery and even if she did about 50% chance of recurrence still after that. I am not sure if those stats are correct, but is what I was told. Ruby was on track, but was so weak that she could not lift herself up and walk on her own from the cortisone. It was going to be weeks and weeks befofe she was going to gain back some muscle tone. I had to work away from home one day per week, and it was coming to that day again, so even though it sounds really awful, after much discussion and thought, we decided to PTS. she had been through so much over the last couople of months and I could not bear to continue seeing her so low and with her vomitting, it was so worrying leaving her all day. I was scared she would get up and fall over and be stuck all day waiting for me to get home or bleed internally. But on the upside, to date we have had no recurrence with Dyzney, though we are careful and vigilent always. The risk of recurrence is why I kept asking you if you had worked out what you thought may have brought it on so you can steer clear of it in the future. So, yes recurrence is a possibility, but we have dyzney here to prove that it is not necessarily going to happen. We have even given her worming tablets, Advocate, ear cleanser and a few different things slowly over time. We watch her closely, and if in doubt we go off for bloods.

Glad he is stable Bokezu. Have they yet asked about using one of your other dogs as a blood donor? Can't remember the issues, but something to do with Jordy only being able to take so many transfusions from non cross matched or something. I might have that wrong, but there is certainly a limit with the transfusions relating to something. It is something you can ask about if they have not mentioned it as yet.

No probs Boze, have just PMd you. come on Jordy. get better for your mum

Oh Boke, I am very upset to hear Jordy is not so good this morning. Yes, I think perhaps another transfusion possible should have been done last night, but what's done is done now. He may need several over the next day or 2. Was wondering if you want to suggest the Cyclosporin to the vets. The specialist think that is what got dyzney over the line, as she had her first dose of it at day 3 or 4 I think, and then had her first turning of the corner at day 5.5. Like I said earlier, I can express post some to you, as it is very expensive, (of course you can have mine for nothing). Anyway your vet may not think it is a good idea...??? Hope he picks up with this latest transfusion. Need to watch for arythmia (not sure of spelling) as the transfusions can cause this also. Good luck sweety. Big hugs and lots of prayers and healing thoughts from me.

Hi Flux, firstly congratulation on your imminent wedding. We did include our dog in our wedding ceremony, but she is an adult and well trained and behaved. Even so, I arranged for one of my friends to be her handler. It was her job (as all the other delegatd wedding jobs we give to our friends) to pick my dog up from my house, take her to the grounds, ensure she was where we wanted her to be and ensure she was watered, included in photo sessions and kept cool at all times. I gave ger a gift for doing this for us and she was happy to. My friend also dropped my dog back home after the ceremony and returned for the reception. My friend is a doggy person and knew my dog very well, so it was wonderful. It was organised well in advance and my friend even came to the rehearsals so she knew where we wanted our dog dyzney to be, but dyzney was our ring bearer. I suggest that doing something similar regarding having a handler do everything for you would take the hassle worry and stress out of your wedding day. You can still pat your pup and have photos taken with her, but your handler will make sure your pup does not jump all over you and the other guests with excitement and ruin your dress. Perhaps not immediate family, like your dad, as he will want to be watching his baby girl on her big day rather than babysitting the dog, if you know what I mean. I hope you have a great day.

It's OK bokezu, initially it was coming across that you may have thought it was going to be an easy fix disease, and that's what was worrying me. I did hope it would be easy for you, and still hope it is gets sorted quickly, but I know it doesn't always go that way. But how were you to know otherwise. When you have not had to deal with something like this before, you have no way of knowing and how could you. ...but you learn pretty quickly when you are up against it don't you?! Hope we get some wonderful news about Jordy's immune system responding today.

Bokezu, big hugs from me. I really wish there was some way I could help. I am relieved you don't seem to be upset with me giving you the tough news. You certainly do not owe me any thanks, but you are very welcome anyway. ;) I do understand how scared you must be. I feel so worried for you. I hope you are coping OK, and hoping you have a wonderful support team at home. I am feeling quite confident Jordy is going to be OK. You are doing everything you can, just hang in there. You need to look after yourself as much as you can, as you will really stretched physically and emotionally when he comes home. I remember sitting with Dyzney in IC at AEC Frankston and Hallam each day telling her she had to get better. I kept telling this over and over again. I told her I needed her to get well so we could continue to do all the fun stuff we always did together. I also did healing on her when I visited. When I lay awake in bed at home at night I would be visualising her well and happy. I am not religious, but I prayed and prayed. I did everything I could think of to give her every possible chance. I will never know if any of this helped, but it felt good to me and she pulled through against the odds, so that's all that matters. Jordy can pull through too. He loves you and he so much life left to live.

Thanks for being so understanding FD. I had hoped you took what I said in the genuine vein intended. Your advice has been great for Bok also. I am sure she has preferred reading yours to mine, , and I feel bad about that, but like I said, better to be forewarned. Yes, DOL community is quite amazing isn't it?!

That is great news Bokezu. Platelets are a good sign. Production is wonderful, as long as his immune system is starting to be supressed so it does not kill them again. I am very glad for you that it appears his IMT is primary. Have you come up with any possible ideas yet as to what you think might have caused it, so you can avoid it in the future? Having Jordy home will be pretty full on, but it will depend a lot on exactly what his condition is like. If he appears well in himself he will require definitely being segregated from the other dogs at all costs (risk of knocking and bleeding internally and severe bruising). also it is super important that nobody visits your house unless they are disinfected at the front door and keep unnecessary visitors away from him. Family members that must come and go also need to be hypervigilent of what they come into contact with outside of the home and wash/disinfect before coming in or going near Jordy. I strongly suggest Jordy does not leave your property at all, and even when he gets back into the car again to visit the vet don't allow him sniff outside your property. We went into complete lock down, no one in no one out, but I understand this is pretty drastic and not everyone is able to do this. You will need to remember that by the time he comes home he will have little or no immune system so will be very susceptible to picking up anything and he won't be able to fight it nor will he be able to be put on anti-biotics without risk of firing up his immune system again. No rough patting, no running and playing. All as low key as possible. Also keeping in mind if he has had any muscle atrophy there may risk bone breakages and falls. If Jordy comes home feeling very sick in himself but showing signs of recovery, then you may need to take time off work or get some assistance from family and friends to have someone with him. As I mentioned earlier if he is crook, maybe vomitting and not eating, then he will need round the clock care and supervision. Hopefully it will not come to this. The other issue with home care is the drinking. Jordy will always be thirsty. You always have to monitor his drinking. He cannot be allowed free access to water whilst he is still on reasonably high levels of cortisone as he will drink so much that it will make him sick, I can almost guarantee this and he will not learn by it, he will keep doing it. He needs to drink the excess water that he will crave or his kidneys will shut down, but he has to get it gradually. As we keep saying all cases are different and much will depend on just how sick or well he is. As each day passes you will know more of his actual condition. But definite risks are bleeding, infection, thirst and gorging water, vomitting and also if he is feeling unwell he may not eat. Then round the clock tiny portions of something really exciting may be called for just to keep up his energy. He will need to be kept in an almost sterile environment with no perfumes or sprays being sprayed into the air, no chemical cleaning products to risk alerting his immune system again. Currently his immune system is on high alert, and could possible try to fight off his platelets again if it feels called upon. Jordy's immune system believes his platelets are foreign and that's why it wants to destroy them, it is working over time, and that's why the vets are doing everything they can to suppress it. Length of time he will need to remain quiet etc will depend on how long it takes for his bloods to return to normal, and then how long it takes for him to be weaned off the drugs or onto such low levels that his body can cope with knocks etc. Even if all goes the very best that can be expected he still needs to be very quiet for a few weeks at least. Aside from all the drugs his body has taken a severe battering and will need to recover. he has youth and a loving family on his side. Bokezu, once again I have written something and feel like I sound like a really negative person and like I am over dramatising it. Believe me, if it was anything else I would be saying something like... "no big deal, just keep a bit of an eye on him", as in typically I am not a hypervigilent type when it comes to my dogs or illnesses. and I wish with all my heart that everything goes extremely well with Jordy, all fingers crossed...... but I just feel with my experiences with IMT that I at least owe it to you and anyone else that might want to know to be honest and tell you exactly what happens and what can happen. I am not adding any frills for affect or embellishing, I am not like that. I think FD's Ruby was one of the very lucky ones and I hope Jordy is too. From what I have heard it is often less severe is smaller dogs.... and that is not to take away any of the importance or recognition of Ruby's ordeal FD. I know it was hard for you also FD. Any illness in our dogs is dreadful. It is wonderful that your vets are being so great. They are giving you a lot of information and it sounds as though they know what they are doing. I am really glad about that. Hope Jordy has a restful and good night.

FD, I am totally in agreement with you about your suspicions of Ruby's ITP being caused by the Ivermectin. As it has been explained to me, because the diesease is idiopathic, (although we as owners can pretty much work out what has caused the onset), it is never documented because it is not proven. So, this is why there is no documentation of actual case studies with attached causes. There are lists of probably linked drugs etc to these immune mediated diseases, and it is interesting to see these, but most vets are either in denial, don't know or don't want you to know, I have found. Both the drugs that I believed caused IMT in both my girls are on this list.... I now know. 2 vets tried to tell me that it could not possibly have been the Rimadyl.... then I saw Rimadyl on this list. Of course this is not to say it is not safe for the majority of dogs to take these drugs the majority of the time. Thousands of dogs do safely have these drugs without any side affects every day. It is believed by most vets (from what I have learned) that the dog must already have a predisposition to actually contracting the disease, and then if it comes into contact with, is medicate with, ingests something that can cause the immune system to go haywire, then that is when it happens. But it also may never occur to that dog with the predisposition. Most of the specialists I speak to believe there is definitely a genetic component. But once again this is not a proven fact. You did the right thing by avoiding further heartworm and vaccination medications with Ruby FD.. Regarding the bone marrow transplant, I know it is difficult to remember stuff from way back then, I have difficulty also, but perhaps was this suggested as a possible treatment when they may first have thought that Ruby's ITP was secondary (as in they may have suspected bone marrow cancer).... and when they tested for white blood cells and found her bone marrow was fine, that was when they said they didn't need to?? Just a thought, as that is how conversations went with Dyzney also.

Morning bokezu. Howz Jordy this morning? It is so frustrating waiting for the drugs to start taking affect, I know. I really feel for you and what you are going through. took 5 and a half days for Dyzney's drugs to kick in and she was on all that Jordy is on plus the Cyclosporin. Same as Berty's Honey, Dyzney's IMT was primary. But it can take a while to learn whether Jordy's is primary or secondary, as I understand keeping him alive at the moment is the main priority. The specialists were convinced Dyzney's was secondary as she took so long to respond and had so many set backs for weeks, but we tested, tested and re tested for every possible underlying disease that they could think of, and still nothing came up. And as we still have her now and she is a picture of health and no other nasties popped up, we definitely know it was primary. Hope Jordy had a good night. Praying for some good new soon.