SpikesPuppy

But I don't think breed clubs would want to be flooded with pet members, at least not as full members. To encourage pet members, but keep to their own goals as breeders and breed associations, they really need to set up a cheaper ancillary type membership. Perhaps a member or 2 from the "companion' section could then be invited into general committee positions to help with events planning etc. You need the 'setup' before you can encourage pet members (and as breed clubs don't have this set up, explains why they tend to be, let's call it 'less encouraging" about getting pet owners to join). Have you ever been member of a breed club? Most struggle for any members and would welcome new blood with open arms. Any member of a breed club that isn't a breeder is a pet member aren't they? I know plenty of such folk in breed clubs including me. Why would breeder's goals be different to pet members goals? Breed clubs exist to promote and support the breed - and most purebred dogs end up as pets. Why don't you join your State breed club and make changes from the inside? You're not talking about huge memberships and separate sections anyway - many breed clubs would be lucky to have 50 members. No reason why a "pet member" couldn't be a full committee member or even President if they want to be. Show folk and breeders aren't from Mars. They are pet owners too. They gush over puppies, play with their dogs and cry over dogs that have died just like "normal" people. If you want to close the barriers between "them and us" perhaps you could stop viewing breed club members as different to you. The only difference between your situations in some cases is that you don't do any formal activities with your dogs. The fact that your dog doesn't have papers is no barrier to you joining and helping to promote your breed. You learn very quickly that anyone prepared to put in is very welcome whether they have a Grand Champion or a pet shop dog. Unfortunately, I know of a few breed clubs who don't welcome members unless they have a papered pedigree animal : Fortunately these seem to be in the minority but the fact is, they exist. So too bad for people who can't/don't have a dog but want to spend time with and learn more about a particular breed. One of the BT clubs' life members never even owned a BT, but was very fond of them, as an example of the opposite end of the spectrum. Until this year, our club Vice President was a pet owner (who, interestingly, only got his first ever pedigree dog a few months before being nominated/elected), and we have had pet owners on committee. Our club, however is one of the shrinking ones - we seem to lose members every renewal, which is disappointing, and finding committee members is nearly impossible. We have an annual champ. show, but we also hold several 'Fun Days' where we have a free BBQ and some demonstrations (agility, grooming etc) and we also have a fancy dress contest. But the attendance at these are sometimes down to the 'die hards' and committee members only Very disappointing especially for the prospective buyers who are invited along. However we are trying new things, new events to get people interested in the club (including holding one of our fun days in conjunction with the Geelong Highland Gathering which also has a Dog Match which has a class suitable for Limit/rescue/pet shop dogs, which we are encouraging pet people' to do. I will also add, that our membership is only $25 annually for a whole family, which actually does not even cover the cost of printing/posting the newsletter!!! Our club runs at a loss in terms of members, we cannot afford to "do more" for people without them joining up..... I will say though, many pedigree owners/breeders do NOT treat people who have a pet shop 'version' of their breed nicely at all- I understand they are frustrated that one of their beautiful breed was sold in such circumstances, but they sometimes seem to take it out on the owner, who is often a loving, knowledgeable & caring owner who only wants to know MORE!!! I say this because I experienced it with my pet shop pure breed. It was also interesting that when I took him to a show as a pup (to have a look and meet some more Newf owners etc), people came up and commented on him, asked who he was from etc. All happy happy, but a dark cloud, so to speak, would fall as soon as I mentioned where he was from Not everyone was like this, mind, but some were and it sure puts breeders and breed representatives in a bad light.

Awww poor mum... pity we can't have a DOL area *evil grins* would be good to catch up with everyone. I wonder if they've changed their stall prices, I think DOL should have a stand :eek: I'm sure there would be many forum members who would volunteer to man it But a few years ago, the stalls were rather pricey Otherwise, next year I reckon I'll just put up a banner in my gazebo LOL. Because everyone wants to meet me, yeah People have worn DOL Lanyards in the past, and a few people even had t shirts printed up with their DOL name on them

I started with a male and found this to suit me. I got my bitch when my male was almost 3 years old, and the bitch is now almost 3 herself, with a 3 week old litter. So I had nearly 5 years showing and learning about my breed, grooming, presentation, bloodlines, faults, serious issues, networking etc before I bred my first litter and I'm glad I did. Next time around, I want to breed my bitch at 18 months rather than 2 and a half years, and I'm not sure what age is recommended in Staffords but if it's the same (18 months) then IMO, it's not a very long time to learn the ropes of the breed and of showing etc. Unless you are a super fast learner or have an excellent mentor.

Jed, I am on the same page as you definitely. I love breed standards, and I love looking at dogs of any breed I am interested in and learning what is & isn't to standard (you are right, we do interpret things differently but some things such as colour, height, spannability , tail length, ear set or shape, proportions etc can not be misinterpreted. Of course, the whole package needs to be taken into account, as well as the dog's performance on the day (the dog's... not that handlers ), but when I mention big winning dogs with certain (large) faults, the owners know about these faults too... some of these dogs aren't bred with and only shown because of these faults, which is good, but on the other hand it can still send novices the wrong impression, as well as less-caring breeders who strive to have a dog that matches World Champion Fido's Frolick, faults and all. I am casual about shows- I don't own a good enough dog to be otherwise, but I'm workin' on that :mad Your comment about the chins is very interesting- as well as important. An ugly head may still be fine in a working animal if it's otherwise correct, but if it lacks the strength or bite etc then it's useless another problem in Borders, too much emphasis on an otter-like head has led to more and more incorrect bites. Of course, you CAN have both hand-in-hand (and that is a sight to see!!), but it's not as common as it should be. I guess I am aiming for a dog that is the whole package and conforms to the breed standard. I would rather a plain, correct animal than a flashy, incorrect one (and yes, to my own interpretation of the standard). Your example of the Cocker coat is another great one where different interpretations of the standard (though honestly, some of the coats cannot be considered "not too profuse" ), and an interpretation which certainly diminishes the animal's suitability as a pet (due to requiring more work to maintain or clipping which destroys the look/texture of the coat and thus the pet owners Cocker Spaniel only resembles a Cocker Spaniel and does not look like one. And the example about the small (but within standard) bitch is another I appreciate and agree with. So it's not the standards I disagree with (as said, I love them ), but it's the way some people seem to interpret them to the detriment of the breed and pedigree dogs as a whole (The BBC doco, whilst showing a handful of negative dogs instead of the many thousands of healthy ones, did show some dogs that had been bred to the extreme interpretation of the standard, with no benefit except a few ribbons on the wall. At the end of the day though, regardless of breed standards and even whether the dog is pure bred or not, it is upto the person selling the puppy to ensure to the best of their ability, that the individual puppy they sell is the right puppy temperament wise (ie: do not sell a headstrong, bossy puppy to a quiet family who wants a soft natured lapdog). And whoever you are, whatever you are breeding you need to stand up and be accountable for the animals you sell.

Awwww they are gorgeous, MM

:D YAAAAAY go Tigga! Hope the little girl is what you're after Can't wait to see the piccies

I slept on a camp stretcher in the spare room, next to the whelping box but Ziva slept on it with me anyway :D But while not sleeping I messed around online, watched DVDs on the laptop. Attempted to study and work on some assignments God bless overseas friends & MSN LOL.

I anchor mine outside with tent pegs. And for a "lid", I use more panels attached with double ended trojan clips. I thought about tent pegs but would like to keep the extension to the run set up permanently, not that the older dogs can't climb or jump out of that height if they wanted to but they are used to being penned that it shouldn't be a problem. Haven't tried the panel lid (we have a secura-pen for shows etc), but a friend with Borders uses the sheet at club fun days etc. I think I'm addicted to these stupid panels I have 4 or 5 sets (1 set has been added to the sidegate to close the gap under the fence) and feel compelled to buy another any time I see them. I wonder if anyone ever uses them for composting?

And don't chalk in the ring :rofl: yup, seen it happen!!

Thank you, Jed, for understanding where I was coming from and not seeing what I posted as an attack or ill-informed statement about shows as some posters did The temperament thing just bothers me immensely as a Border Terrier that is aggressive in a working situation would be shot. No ifs or buts about it. And their temperament, coupled with their otter-like head are the two features that make them stand out in the Terrier group and more than their conformation the unique temperament was what made them popular as working animals despite the availability of other hot-headed terriers. They are allowed to respond if challenged/threatened but must never start something. But again, that is not mentioned in the standard and a judge really doesn't know any better unfortunately I know you & other experienced people wont judge a dog solely on it's show results, but a message I often see here is that correct dogs win, the dogs who win are bred to the standard etc and are therefore perfect examples. While many may be, others are not and for a novice, I think the message can be confusing, ie: go to a few shows and see the same dog winning time and time again. Dog has poor or incorrect temperament but it's winning (winning = to the Standard) so where does the novice go?? To the top dog of course!! Because so much emphasis & faith is being put into Breed Standards by experienced breeders. Don't get me wrong, anybody. I love my pedigree dogs and I adore dog shows and I do know there are many judges who are very good at what they do and many winning dogs ARE worthy, but I also see the downside and negativity of putting such emphasis on dog shows and breed standards when advertising pedigree animals to the GENERAL PUBLIC. Maybe it's just the terminology that I have an issue with? The technical 'showie' terms that are used with little or no explanation of what they actually mean. The quick references to the breed standard. Many pet owners/potential buyers don't know what a breed standard is??? I do agree with this

Nessa (smooth Collie) does this, and if she is super excited to see YOU she does it while springing above your head from a standstill I love what my Borders do- when they are excited or can smell something really interesting (bitch in season for eg) they chatter their teeth

Briards are required to have double dewclaws on the hind legs, and they MUST be sturdy and well attached- they are used when working on mountains/rocky areas etc. Beaucerons are the same. However most hind dew claws seem to be the flimsy ones attached by skin only and they should be removed ASAP so they don't catch. I know of one oodle who was being groomed and had one nearly sliced clean off because no one knew it existed... Ouch.

My little monkeys in their pen constructed out of Bunnings panels In a week or so I will also be making a pen for them outside, using more panels & star pickets- attaching it to a dog run. If the dog decides it wants to climb out, you can try clipping an old sheet or something as a roof

Yet the "forprofit" cross-breeders are selecting for temperament over looks, while purebreed breeders may well put looks first. Breeders weight temperament. Have you been to a dog show? A boxer which is not confident about being handled by the judge can go last, a cocker which is not demonstrating "merry" when he is gaiting, ditto, Cavaliers which are unhappy about the noise, the people, and the other dogs aren't going to win much on a regular basis, so breeders are encouraged to breed temperament TO the standard. If the standard says "aloof" that's how the judge wants the dogs to be. there's many a dog with top conformation which wasn't shown because his temperament didn't match his conformation. He might have been a good dog, and a nice pet, but he wasn't good enough in the temperament stakes for the ring. Jed, I respect you but I feel you are putting too much faith in that 60 seconds a dog spends trotting around the show ring and the judges that make the decisions. In my opinion, judges do not see a dog for long enough to gauge correct temperament, and many do know know what the correct temperament is anyway (see my examples posted on this page, the few words in the Border Terrier standard that relate to temperament give little indication and in fact, can be misleading (as a BT should not have a 'terrier temperament' unless working, and under no circumstances should they kick up a stink around other dogs unless challenged. I have had my even tempered dogs be beaten by ones who were literally choked around the ring because they were that aggressive with other dogs that if they had been on loose leads, they would have bitten. These dogs should have been excluded from the judging, and definitely not awarded above my own. I have also had my dogs 'sparred' against other terriers which is a HUGE no-no for the breed and proves the judges' ignorance)). How does a judge guage a correct Collie (Rough) temperament if there is none advised in the breed standard? A "Gay and friendly" Collie (smooth), how many of those do you see in the ring? And how many are allowed/encouraged to show their gayness & friendliness in the ring? Obviously they should not be depressed or slouchy but how gay is enough?? Tail wagging, swishing or should the dog be busting out of it's skin to say HI! YOU'RE MY NEW BEST FRIEND!!! Many judges seem to expect the Smooth to have the same temperament as his Rough cousin (and that in itself, seems to be perfectly acceptable to be timid or shy. Many people are surprised when they meet Nessa as she is the epitome of "Gay and friendly", however she seems void of the "gifted with intelligence part" :D ). Not all Collies (either variety) are shy, but I have seem many who ARE, and it's very sad. And then there are the dogs who, as soon as they step foot in the show ring, become depressed & sour due to poor handling/socialisation or maybe a bad experience or perhaps they are just BORED. Should they be barred from the breeding program because of this?? I just don't believe that the show ring is the correct place to accurately assess true temperament of a dog, especially when most shows are judged by people who have little knowledge of the breed. Certain breeds have also been altered in the temperament stakes for the sake of pets or showing- the Dobermann, British Bulldog (not to mention the gross conformation overhaul) are two that spring to mind. I don't believe all dogs should have the same temperament and I do believe that temperament, over conformation in many circumstances, is what draws the devotees to their breed- it's certainly why I have Border Terriers and why I recommend them to so many people. I do not like "terrier-ish" Borders, but I also do not like sooky lap-dog Borders. My male is over the top in enthusiasm, but I know it and I admit it. It looks nice in the show ring (better than my correctly temperamented girl), but it's not entirely correct for the breed (although the standard would lead one to believe so).

Collie (Rough) Collie (Smooth)

Haven't read everything yet (only on page 20) but with regard to breed standards, IMO the Border Terrier temperament is one that needs a serious change: What the F*** does the above mean?? It says NOTHING about the fact that they MUST get along with other dogs, that they are allowed to appear dour or bored in the show ring etc etc. In fact, if you chose the Border Terrier based on the breed standard, you would be in for a shock. Even long term Border people feel the temperament description is sorely lacking for the breed In fact many argue that the use of the term 'game' is incorrect. The breed standard is not and should not be the be-all and end-all of breeding dogs IMHO. (And no, we don't have a BSE).

Oooh can you put me down for a blue, too then?? A female please. I need a bit of extra money in the pocket you know. Figured the white one can live in the backyard, so don't need to worry about it clashing with the furniture It'll be happy with a few scraps here and there, right? Makes it a better guard and all. Gotta love these easy-care pets

I can do a nice latte number as well SP. These are even more goey protective Oh I like that one Put me down for two please. And what the hey, gimme a white one as well. Can never be too safe All males and from the same litter please!

He's cute but..... does he come in any other colour??? White just wont go with my decor & it will be hell to keep clean.

It should be... some of them were in such an appalling condition. Why are people allowed to get away with that? Surely the RSPCA are allowed to sieze animals in such conditions, being neglected and uncared for... and the others that appeared in half decent condition - sieze them for living in such awful conditions? Surely they have that right and could use it? You would think so, wouldn't you?? Especially when they can seize perfectly healthy, loved and cared for dogs :shakehead: The laws are so backwards.

Is the breeder still registered?

I don't, and have had mutts and unregistered pure breeds in the past but now, in my life, I have found that a predictable, pedigree dog who's parents & other relatives I know is much more suited to myself and my lifestyle. I know what I want and I get it I'm of "Unknown parentage" myself

This is verging in Nazi propgander! If it isn't pure it is worthless. If you don't want to pay the asking price for a pedigree dog, don't simple as that. And BTW, one of our pedigree, show dogs cost $400. Find a pet shop dog for that price with lifetime support, full puppy pack etc. AND home delivery!!!

Was gonna suggest this! Also any veggies/fruit that may be sprouting at this time of year, or fermenting?? Also check that the neighbor's aren't throwing things over the fence? We were getting lumps of stale bread in our yard for a while. I thought it was the back neighbours chucking it over, but one day, I spotted a bird carrying a chunk and landing in our yard, then the dog would scare the bird off and scoff the bread piece.

Was the puppy from registered parents? It's not, as far as I am aware, against any CC COE for a Registered breeder to breed and/or sell unregistered puppies from unregistered parents..... It's only REGISTERED DOGS that have the regulations