megan_

This happens every time - people trivialise what happened. If you were attacked by 4 powerful dogs, you wouldn't be making light of it. Especially if one of your pets got hit by a car as they tried to evade the attack.

Snook that sounds wonderful. Well done Justice! He is a lucky boy who has an owner who not only realises his issues, but actually works through them. It is a great thing to see your dog being "normal" and enjoying a simple interaction with another dog.

Does anyone have his contact details, or someone else they'd recommend that is SE of Melbourne? I'm in Bentleigh but I'm happy to travel an hour or so for the right person.

ETA: When a dog is reported as pitbull or pitbul type, they really mean bull breed. I don't see how focusing on what breed they are or aren't helps the cause. In Joe Public's eyes, if they aren't pitbulls but bull breeds then maybe they should be banned too? Note: I'm not saying they should be, but it is where things are headed in Vic. Be careful what you wish for.,

It ran onto the road because it was being attacked by the other dogs. So they are directly responsible for the dogs death. The only thing sensational about the title is the reference to pit bulls. The headline actually says "Guide dog killed after being ambushed by pit bulls in Bellfield in Melbourne's northeast" This is true, but what if it was something else that had startled the dog? It wouldn't even have made the news then. Say it was a windy day and there was a tarp that suddenly moved, the dog startled and jumped into the road. My dogs have almost done this on several occasions. What if it had been a golden that suddenly jumped out from behind a corner and startled the dog? Other than the pit bull type dogs involved, it's not even worth reporting. tarp blowing in the wind isn't illegal. Wandering dogs are. Four dogs attacked two dogs out for a walk.. Regardless of breed that would be reported in Vic. After all, when Busta the GR attacked it was reported too. Things like this make the dog world look like they don't care about people and innocent dogs just out for a walk. All we seem to focus on is the media. The media didn't kill the dog.

Fingers crossed here. Hopefully it is something that they can easily treat.

Most vets don't agree to this though unless you know them well, they know the dog's history and are confident that the insurance company will pay. If they insurance company declines the payout, or you don't fill in the paperwork quickly, the poor vet is left chasing up the payment.

You could also contact the schnauzer club - think QLD has one. If not, try the NSW club

Greytmate, I think the problem is that it is very hard to define "quality control" when it comes to a dog - or at least, there are some grey lines. Unless a rescue group had a behavioural report that said "this dog is aggressive" how can you prove the dog was a risk? I even read on DOL rescuers saying things like "The dog exhibited no aggression in the kennels" and there is an implication that the new owners/fosters have either done something wrong or are lying. But anyone who knows anything about dog behaviour knows that a dog can shut down in a kennel and what you see isn't what you get. If Lucy wound up in a pound now (she wouldn't, she goes to heaven with me) I'm sure she would pass most behavioural assessments done by well meaning volunteers. I'm 99.99% sure she wouldn't exhibit any aggression at all as she wouldn't be comfortable enough to stand up to someone. She would be scared, tremble etc. However, if the assessment was done by a women with treats who was dressed in training type gear, she would be very well behaved, approach the person and sit beautifully for a treat. She would only take it when given permission. She could pass a startle test as she recovers very well if I act like it is okay. In fact, she recovers far better than my non-reactive boy. She lets me handle her food as well. She would come across as a shy but sweet dog. If she is in working mode (ie the assessor has food) she will work beautifully for a long time. She'll drop, sit, walk nicely on a loose leash etc. I get compliments on her behaviour all the time! I take her to agility and obedience she works off leash safely with other dogs and strangers around. Even in a foster environment, unless she was there for a long time (long enough to feel territorial and comfortable enough to defend herself) and she was exposed to something that scared her (eg a stranger staying overnight) she would come across as a very sweet little dog. She is just that 99% of the time. She has been fine with people in my home for days,they come out a door when she wasn't expecting it and BAM, she is in "fight for my life" mode. She doesn't give a warning, she goes straight into attack mode. It took a chair for my sister to defend herself (the first and last time she had a go at an adult) and even then that didn't stop her. How on earth can you safely test for that? Should timid dogs be rehomed (my answer based on what I know now is most probably not, unless they are a trainer)?

Some councils in Vic don't let you do this. If you aren't a registered breeder your dog needs to be desexed at 3 months.

It is definitely not recommended for giant breeds. I have never come across a vet who would recommend desexing of a giant breed. To the OP - I'd ring the council - without giving them your details - and say my vet recommends I should only get the dog desexed at 6 months (or whenever). In my council, you pay a higher fee for registering an undesexed dog, but so be it.

Are you able to join the trialling class and just not trial? Maybe come up with an "excuse" (not that you need one) to shut them up (eg I'm following Greg Derrett's advice and not trialling them until they are well above novice level).

KB - it is interesting that the top triallers - GD and the like - spend about 2 years doing foundation before they trial!

Not all dogs enjoy trialling, there is nothing wring with that. After all, agility is meant to be about having fun with your dog. They don't care about letters after their name. I've heard that some judges in Vic get narky if you play with your dog or rouse them up - I don't want my dogs to think agility is a serious thing. I also agility with my girl and she will never trial, at least it isn't in my plan. Agility has helped build her confidence immensely but it has been hard to find a club for a dog that won't ever earn a title.

SSM - I think finding the right home is the really hard part. There are very few truly skilled trainers out there looking for problem dogs to rehabilitate. And if they are, they normally have one already. Many people underestimate the dedication that it takes to look after a troubled dog. I know many people who have owned dogs all their life - they'd call themselves experienced dog owners - who have given me absolutely awful, downright dangerous, advice about how to rehabilitate my dog ("she's scared of kids, just let her play with my kids"). That said, I'm sure they'd sound like wonderful applicants ("owned mini schnauzers for 20 years", "trained dogs for 10+ years", semi-retired, fully fenced yard etc) Sometimes experienced homes are the wrong homes because they think they understand dogs, but they don't understand problem dogs. My Dad has owned dogs for over 40 years, but he struggled with my sister's crazy chi because she wasn't a "normal" dog. He was far too proud to consult a behaviourist.

A good post. I'd add extreme fear/lack of socialisation to that list too. When I got Lucy, she exhibited no aggression at all for the first year. When faced with a situation that she was unsure of (most situations), she would freeze and shake. After ab \out 6 months of having her - including ignoring her for almost a month as any attention would see her running outside as fast as her little legs would carry her - I started "socialising" her. Being inexperienced, I put her in situations that I thought she could cope with, thinking that would help her get over her fear. She looked like she was coping and would take food (if she was too stressed she wouldn't eat, so I never put her in that position). Big mistake. All she learnt is that if she behaves the scarey things don't go away. Then one day, seemingly out of the blue, she tried to have a go at someone (I was right there, never left her alone with anyone and always made sure there were numerous exists available to her). She learnt a very powerful lesson that day: aggression = scarey things go away, very quickly! It has been a long, stressful and costly road to recovery, and we aren't at the end of our journey yet. I love her very, very much but I will never be getting a fearful dog ever again and, in hindsight, I should have left without taking her back on day 0. I feel guilty for even writing that . I shudder when I read ads that say "XXX is very shy, she needs lots of love and care to come out of her shell". It takes skill, knowledge and nerves of steel to safely rehabilitate a dog with extreme fear, even if they don't exhibit aggression. If all it took were love, Lucy would be better by now.

I'm happy that not all trainers can solve all problems. I don't think they need to get out of the training business if they can't - they just need to be aware of their limitations, be transparent with clients and refer them on as needed. Dog training is about so much more than tools. The fundamental skills is actually about communicating with humans - giving them clear, simple advice that they can follow through. Helping them destress and know when to take a break rather than taking their frustrations out on their dog. This is a very rare skill in a trainer and I'd look for this over their toolset any day. There are a few situations where I would feel comfortable using a prong or ecollar. Shel used one with Zero, in conjunction with a program that was, by the sounds of it, 99% conditioning and positive anyway. The prong kept the community safe while he was being rehabilitated. But most dogs don't have these problems - most dogs aren't a threat to the community or their owners. They are bored, understimilated and have owners that understand nothing about body language ("let them sort it out!", "Jane is my friend so I want my dog to be friends with her dog". "socialization means saying hello to every strange dog", "don't worry he's friendly"). No ecollar or prong is going to resolve that issue. I'm still interested what people feel about availability with no training? I go to a lot of training with different trainers, owners and dogs and many (most?) people stun me with their inability to follow very simple instructions.

Sangrubber - I'm on the iPhone which does autocorrect. The mould was a rare form of toxic mould that impacts humans and dogs and causes them to shake uncontrollably. This can then lead to a heart attack. My dogs are small so they are impacted more greatly. As others have pointed out, saving is great if your dog waits 5 years before they get I'll or have an accident. Even then, you'd have to hope that they get I'll during standard business hours to save you money. Mrs rusty bucket - that is how some of the cheaper insurance companies work. The one I use has lifetime cover for ailments, while most only pay for the first year. It costs me almost $90 per month for two small, young dogs but I'm keeping it for that reason.

In what situations would you use one? Would it be for serious problems only?

My dog are young and healthy - but one got a bad case of gastro that cost over $500 to treat (symptoms same as obstruction, a few days in hospital etc) and one ate a moldy lunch that cost me $1000. If I hsd simply saved the premium I'd still be in debt. Birdseed exclusions extist so that people get insurance early.

So are you saying you'd use them on a higher setting only?

I've gotten great value put of it - well over $7k, for all sorts of things, illness and accident. You can't expect them to pay out on preconditions, they'd go broke. The trick is to insure your dogs on day1 so there are no pre-existing conditions. It is hardly a con - you're lucky if it is a waste of money - then your dog hasn't been seriously ill. I'd never be without it.

Regardless of method, some dogs will always need management. Even if you now train riddick to never get on the benchtops, ii doubt you'll ever leave the mess there again? I hope that doesn't sound like I'm having a go because I'm not! I have a dog that will never be allowed to play with strange dogs. Ever. Yet I have seen behaviourists and continue to train her. She has improved greatly but I expect to manage her for life.

For those that use ecollars regularly, do you find it impacts their free shaping training at all (if you do it)? I do a lot of free shaping to train new behaviours. I've been to a few seminars and have noticed that the vast majority of dogs who are "traditionally" trained were weary of making a mistake (ie they didn't try new things to get a reward, they sat and wItrd for their owner to tell them what to do. If they were unsure, they would try it very apprehensively). I don't think it would make a difference if they'd been zapped once or twice, but if it was regular I would expect it to have an impact.?

ETA: do dogs become "collar aware"? My girl most probably wouldn't be able to put two-and-two together, but I think my boy would figure out what was happening pretty quickly.