megan_

Like most analogies, you have to be careful how far you can take them. An electric fence has a clear contingency, the animal [usually] knows exactly what produced the shock and thus, how to avoid it in future. There are endless studies of what happens when the animal doesn't figure out quickly how to avoid the shock; and those symptoms range from transient distress to chronic anxiety and even depression. When we're talking about a bark collar, or a remote collar used to train something with a very clear contingency (e.g kitchen counter surfing), the risk is low provided the trainer has good timing (and with an e-collar, you're marking not only the onset of response but the cessation of the response). Once you start to use the collar in more complex scenarios, the risks increase. The risk of physical damage from the collar is negligible whether it's a 600kg horse or a 10kg dog, unless you leave it on for too long. I don't know if there has ever been a confirmed case where a collar has malfunctioned and caused electrical burns, the images I've seen have been of necrotic lesions which are not caused by shock. I think the bolded bit is often underplayed. We assume that the dog knows what it did to get the shock - we assume that our timing is correct too. I clicker train and I'm a more advanced trainer than most and yet I still get timing wrong and forget to generalise (so the dog associates the click - or in this case the shock - with something it shouldn't). For example, dog barks when sitting - did he get the zap for sitting on for barking? He needs to be zapped from many different positions to generalise "the only common theme here is the barking". We also need to remember that dogs are individuals. The other day my smoke alarm went off and distressed my dogs - they have sensitive hearing so it is understandable. Over one month later, ANY beeping noise (even the faint beep from my hair straightener) send Lucy panicking under the bed. She now associates me getting ready in the morning with the beep and hides after breakfast and our walk (ie she doesn't even need to hear the beep to get stressed). It would be a very cold day in hell before I put an electric collar on her. I'm not saying all dogs would react badly, but we can't make blanket statements that they are okay for all dogs.

That is interesting Melzawalza. I would imagine that a well bred, well trained, well socialised, well managed high prey drive dog does not pose a great risk to children (I'm thinking of K9Pro's protection trained, w/l mals here). Those are dogs that know when to turn drive on in a controlled fashion, now how to control their drive and get drive satisfaction via controlled play (you can see vids of Venom playing with Steve's daughter, he controls his drive beautifully and is so gentle). This is very different from a dog bred by Joe Bloggs, origin unknown, not widely trained and properly socialised, kept on a chain and the only time they get drive satisfaction is if they kill something. I don't know if that was the case with the dog in question, but there is no way I would feel safe around a dog living in these circumstances. There also seems to be a theme of "owned by young bloke" here.

What insurer is this? My bet is that it would be one of the cheaper ones? From what I have heard they do make it harder to claim, pet plan only asked for the history of my rescue from when I got her.

No one is blaming? We do need to look at factors that decrease these tragedies from happening. Clearly people don't understand that "yard" dogs pose a much greater risk than family dogs. For the safety of our children , that needs to be common knowledge.

I got my rescue as an adult, with no known history and her claims were processed with no query about her previous "life"? I provided them with her vet history from when I got her. Have they specifically asked for her history from her previous owner? If not, I would just provide what she has. If they want an entire history then I would ask for a refund and the insurance company should specify that they don't cover rescues or rehomes from unknown backgrounds.

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yes - and that is one determined dog. If a dog has a snap it doesn't normally take much to stop them. 10 minutes is sustained.

I'm not saying don't supervise around "rock solid" dogs. I am saying that you can't have a dog with weak temperament and assume that by being present nothing will happen. Everyone always says "supervision is the key" - it isn't. It needs to be combined with the right temperament, training, socialising etc. All of those things are required to reduce risk.

Chaining is not a very safe way to contain a dog - child can still approach and the dog can't get away. If that report is correct it would seem that the dog WASN'T used to the child being around while the dog was free to roam.

hind leg awareness and core strength also help with the dog walk. You want your dog to run fast without falling off - he needs to be aware of his back legs and have a strong core to ensure they don't fall off. This doesn't come naturally to many dogs. Another thing to teach is contact entry. As you get more advanced you want to be able to run towards a contact at a 90+ degree angle, send the dog and run in a different direction. Many dogs will short cut and jump onto the obstacle over the colour - this is a fault and is dangerous too. You can start this by teaching your dog to run around a noodle (a 1/3 pool noodle, vertical stuck over something sticking in the ground). You then put the noodle next to the contact and your dog goes around the noodle to find the right entry. Another thing that is controversial though is to teach your boy to be super confident on the dog walk by turning on a low plank (on command only). Some people don't like this because they worry their dog will turn around while on the dog walk. However, I haven't seen this happen and if you do it on command only your dog shouldn't do it at other times.

The issue with supervision is that people assume that by being physically present nothing will happen. Properly supervising a child means doing nothing else - no phone, no cooking, no TV, no talking, and knowing dog behaviour to a T. I don't know any parent that can do that... Yes, dogs need to be supervised around children, but that is the safety net only. Dogs that don't have rock solid temperaments, great bite inhibition and great socialization should be physically separated from kids when they visit (locked room or crate where a child can't accidentally open it) is the only safe option. Dogs that don't have all of these characteristics shouldn't live with children at all (dons flame suit here). I think sometimes people are embarrassed to say "my dog isn't great with kids". They get accused of being a bad owner, not socialising their dog (socialising cures all ills, don't you know?) etc. With regards to size, of course powerful dogs have a greater ability to harm children. Taller dogs (where their mouth reaches the child's face) have a greater chance of hurting a child too. I don't know why people get so defensive about this?

Dreaming about our next non-reactive dog is not off track! I am lucky that I have Fergus too, to even things out. That said, he is submissive so if Lucy put on a big show he does too, and then realises he is being a pork-chop. After almost 2 years on the waiting list, Lucy has been accepted into the foundation program at our agility school (IMO the best one in the state) so she is starting this week. Poor Fergs doesn't get to train for 2 months because it clashes with his class. I suspect there will be a big tantrum when he gets put in the crate and Lucy gets to have fun. It will be her at the ripe old age of 6/7, with a bunch of pups, most of whom have been specifically bred for performance.

Is someone going to get an Iggy puppy Kirislin?

Out of interest, has Pat Hastings said anything about the modern shape? I read a summary from her where she described how you should be able to draw a rectangle based on the dog's outline, however there was a statement that this didn't apply to GSD's.

Don't give her the painkillers though as she could be hurt, not feel it, and do more damage.

Maybe it is because I have small dogs? Fergus isn't at all reactive however I still worry about him when I see an off leash GSD in prey drive running towards us! Maybe ill just get a big dog next time - not reactive, but could put up a fight if they needed to. ETA: Lucy is reactive only to dogs that don't respond to her very appropriate "please give me some space" signals. She was a gem today - she knew to stand behind me and not say a peep!

And does he approach people or other dogs?

Am I the only one whose blood is boiling over that reporting thread in general? I had a shocking morning . Went to a wetland reserve where dogs are allowed on leash. It was 7.30 when I spotted a GSD X hunting birds off leash . This dog was in full prey drive and was manic. Luckily he was so intent on hunting birds he didn't even see my dogs even though we were a few metres away. We managed to get to the car by stealth and I took a photo of the owners car and wi be reporting him to the council. They aren't good at following these things up but given he was hunting wildlife they might give the owner a nice fine. It is one of those days where I think I won't be able to own a dog again. Too damn stressful :-(.

I'm sure there are lots of people who would like to use that park but can't because of all the off leash dogs that you admit visit strangers. My 1 hour walk this morning lasted less that 15 mins when we were menaced by a GSD off leash in an on leash wetlands reserve. But if lots of people do it it's okay, right ? No wonder the laws are getting stricter. We have a new park here that doesn't allow dogs at all. Why? Because people want a park that they can enjoy without being worried about being harassed. If everyone obeyed the laws I have no doubt that park would be unnecessary. Want to take your fog for an off leash run (like I do for my non reactive dog)? Go to an off leash park. Simple. Quoted because it was said better than I could.

I'm sure there are lots of people who would like to use that park but can't because of all the off leash dogs that you admit visit strangers. My 1 hour walk this morning lasted less that 15 mins when we were menaced by a GSD off leash in an on leash wetlands reserve. But if lots of people do it it's okay, right ? No wonder the laws are getting stricter. We have a new park here that doesn't allow dogs at all. Why? Because people want a park that they can enjoy without being worried about being harassed. If everyone obeyed the laws I have no doubt that park would be unnecessary. Want to take your fog for an off leash run (like I do for my non reactive dog)? Go to an off leash park. Simple. Quoted because it was said better than I could.

My rescue dog is reactive. I only walk her in on leash areas. I am sick to death of "friendly " off leash dogs approaching her. I don't care that they aren't aggressive - she will tell them off if they get right in her face and, being a little dog, she won't come off well if there is a fight. The " friendly" dog owners always blame my dog even though she is on leash and well behaved - she just doesn't like being jumped on the head by a dog 5 times her size. My other dog gets plenty of off leash time, but at designated off leash areas. He has an excellent recall and I don't let him approach any one without their permission. None of this is special - it is the minimum required behaviour according to the law. I am sick and tired of dog owners who think the laws don't apply to them. The law applies to everyone regardless of whether you like it or not. Spend a day in the shoes of a reactive dog owner (even socialised dogs can become reactive) and see how stressful it is to go for a walk in an ON leash area. I now walk my dogs at 5am. I am tired all the time. Walks are stressful. I love my dogs very much. They are my treasures. Agility is our hobby and we love it. I am not a paranoid owner. I just have a dog that doesn't like being body slammed by large dogs. At this stage, I'm sad to say that these dogs will most probably be my last - it is all too stressful simply because people - like some of those in this thread - think the laws don't apply to them. If people would just follow the law then Lucy would live a fuller life.

You are only meant to use it short term when the dog has fleas. My guess is that the cat owner could have been using it over a long period?

You can still get "old scoop" lines that aren't working line. No one should ever get a working line just for the shape - they are a lot more dog.

Is he only escaping when you're out (ie if you're in the house and he's in the yard, does he get out)? If so, I'd build a secure dog run (assuming he isn't going to be relegated to it for 12+ hours a day).

If you have a family member or someone who comes into regular contact with the dogs with a suppressed immune system (eg a cancer patient, some auto-immune diseases) then the bacteria from raw can be an issue. This is why therapy dogs who visit cancer patients need to restrict their raw food before a visit.