tomas

You must let us know what you discover in said treasure ;)

Thanks, I'll look for the canned version. I expect if you tried to post some the scent dogs at customs would have field day, I can just imagine their faces coming across that lot! ;) I have asked at a number of different butchers and meat suppliers, but they act like I am a health inspector trying to set them up. Yeah imagine those detector dogs almost pasing out with excitement! Keep trying the Butchers,though I wonder is it illegal for them to see Green Tripe? This thread is still going great guns ,as I said before it's about the first type of discussion where differeing views are not shot down by some. Thing is dogs can survive on sub optimum eating,we have all heard the stories of dogs eating the cheapest most processed dry dog food and living till they are 20. We all try to do what we think is best and IMO that is the most important thing! As long as it's not too flawed in it's execution

Ziwipeak do a Lamb Tripe in a can version... You could try that...I have spoken to the people that produce it and they swear by their product as their Lab girl is raw fed,but she also gets Ziwi dry and a few cans a week.... I am in NZ and have access to a few diff sources of Green Tripe,problem is if I sent you some it might kill the postie with the smell. I actually like the smell ,it's like rotting wet hay that a cow poohed in . My dogs actually don't even get that excited about it anymore.

LOL. I wish I did'nt some days too! I actually have a brother and his wife living in PN.How about contacting them and see how far they deliver to...also try Lynn at Raw Essentials and see if their are any stockists down your way...

Now they say you should never assume...I assumed you were an Ozzie! I get my Tripe from Bombay Petfoods,they do home delivery. http://www.jimbos.co.nz/shop/home-delivery/ I also get it from Milford Vets....who carry the Raw Essentials range there is other stuff there not shown on this site. http://www.rawessentials.co.nz/store/cat16...nformation.html I vary it,as one is light green the other dark,figure it's better to alternate my source Obviously I am in Auckland. Where are you?

I am in NZ,so can't help you there,the white stuff is bleached and all the good stuff lost

Yes I did! I am a total dog food freak,has taken me nearly 10 years to get their feeding just how I want and I think they need. Mind you in all that time other than one of my boys who reacted to a vaccine and had immune related issues,and passed away from meningitis at age 6,I am almost never at the vets! Only for injuries these days.

Not sure about the sardines replacing fish oil...but too much fish will reduce the bodies ability to absorb thiamine...I do feed raw pilchards and mackerel,just not that often,maybe once every 2 weeks. In any case I always add fish oil ,maybe every 2nd day at least for extra omegas...

Organs other than liver...spleen ,pancreas,brain,lung...anyone want to add some more.... I have 10kgs of beef spleen in the freezer I am slowly working my way through as well as a few lambs brains and a lung from somewhere ;) Kidney! eta - oh dear, Tess beat me to it! Tomas, For only a few months, and yes, I've learned heaps from comparing the values. Possibly nothing that will be of any interest to anyone else! But off the top of my head, what I'll be telling my clients (as well as hopefully having a few weekly diet sheets to give them) is: Bones have heaps of calcium, and quite a lot of phosphorus in them. Meat has hardly any calcium, and very little phosphorus. Feeding your dog as many bones as she or he needs to give an adequate calcium/phosphorus intake and ratio, then make up the rest with other ingredients such as meat, seems to work pretty well according to my calculations. My pup usually gets about 40% of the diet as RMB. That gives her about 2.6g of Ca per 1000kcal (NRC recommendation is 3g/1000kcal for puppies, so we're a little short, but adding more means I can't make my quota for zinc). Liver is where you'll get most of your copper and vitamin A from. Too much vitamin A is harmful, so you can overdo it. Stick to about 5% of the diet as liver (yes, as recommended in prey model). Diets made largely of chicken are likely to be deficient in zinc. If you feed chicken bones as your RMB, it can be a good plan try to make the rest of the diet out of red meat instead of chicken meat. Zinc is pretty important for the skin and also the immune system, so I'm not keen for my dog to be borderline deficient. Feeding too much calcium isn't a large problem for older dogs, the only ill effect I have found is that it can bind to other minerals (such as zinc) and make them less available to the dog. Puppies have a more limited ability to excrete excess calcium, so you have to be careful not to overdo their calcium intake. And of course, the calcium phosphate ratio for pups should be kept between 1:1 and 2:1, preferably between 1.2:1 to 1.5:1. Skin, especially chicken skin, is about the only place you'll get vitamin D from. Do dogs need vitamin D in the diet? No one knows yet, but I'd rather be safe than sorry, so I feed some skin. The NRC say that dogs probably do a certain amount of manganese, and that's almost impossible to get from meat and bone alone, so either they're wrong, or dogs do need some veges or grains in some form in the diet. Jury for me is out at the moment, until I get my hands on the new NRC book at least. I feed some grains and veges just to be on the safe side. I'd probably avoid fruit in a dog that had cancer, though. Green tripe is great! But on the whole, picturing what a wild dog would eat and feeding that in approximately the right proportions seems to "compute" OK, which makes a lot of sense when you think about it! I'd personally be more careful with puppies, especially large breed puppies, and will encourage my clients to feed them carefully if they want to feed raw. You ARE a star ,that is cool,Thanks. I feed mainly beef,lamb,pork etc so red meat,with not much chicken,I figure they would'nt catch a lot of birds blah blah.But I always add a skin on chicken back to a boneless meat meal,well most times it's a chicken back. REALLY helpful stuff!

Hey that is cool,have you been doing this very long and if so fopund out anything interesting... This nerd wants to know !

Organs other than liver...spleen ,pancreas,brain,lung...anyone want to add some more.... I have 10kgs of beef spleen in the freezer I am slowly working my way through as well as a few lambs brains and a lung from somewhere

This has become a great thread and everyone is being helpful and informative,WITHOUT being judgemental! Brilliant job! I don't feed veggies because I add green tripe,so I figure they get a different antioxidant profile that way,plus it is perfectly balanced for Ca and P and being low fat,low cal and having the correct ration of Omega 6 and 3,I can give it to my one 'easy' keeper Ollie. He gets fat with the same food as his brother Spencer ,they are identical weights and yet Ollie is TWICE as active as Spencer. Helps to fill him up,when he gets less of the other stuff than even one of my dogs that weighs 6kgs less! When I did add veggies or any carbs for that matter,left over kumara or potato etc,I had no end of ear and gunky eye trouble. None of that food,all is fine. Go figure. I am also lucky as they get 2-3 hours off lead running a day,yes guys I walk THAT much! So I can feed a lot to make them feel full. Has anyone with a dog that gains weight easily tried a few gorge meals a week,like half as much again as they need say and then a smaller amount the other days. That way you can satiate your dog and still keep cals down on the other days....just a thought. Also dogs will eat whatever they can get to be honest to survive,they will eat sticks but that does'nt mean they should... I just know what has worked best for us. Being Vizslas,single coated,no undercoat,I can see any lumps and bumps or dry skin more easily than on most breeds. Prey model is the winner here hands down Also we have'nt talked fish oil... Fish Oil Recommended dosage is based on a. dogs's weight and b. need. For a "maintenance dose", consider feeding 1(one) 300mg DHA+EPA combined total capsule per 30 (thirty) pounds of dog. --10lb dog would get 1 capsule every other day. --30lb dog would get 1 capsule a day. --50lb dog would get 1 or 2 capsules a day, your choice, no harm in feeding more. --100lb dog would get 3 or 4 capsules a day, your choice. For a "therapeutic" dose (you're addressing a health issue of some sort), consider feeding 1 (one) 300mg DHA+EPA combined total capsule per 10 (ten) pounds of dog. --10lb dog would get 1 capsule a day. --30lb dog would get 3 capsules a day. --50lb dog would get 5 capsules a day. --100lb dog would get 10 capsules a day.

Good ON you! I personally feed prey model and always have,I DID add veggies maybe the first year about 10 years ago,but as well as it being a pain to mush them all up,they just don't need the sugar. I have Vizslas and I find their ears and breath are better without the veggies. Also I don't add any carbs at all,so no oats for me. IMO you are wasting money on these things. They really do not ned them and as you have read Mech,you will know what I mean. Again,I would ditch the Greenies. UGH! It's just Green hard goop! I can see your reasoning behind giving them to Sarge but do you not think in time he will come around...in the meantime if he is'nt getting those sugary things he would'nt have any plaque buildup and you can always add ground chciken carcasses for the bone portion,as well as egg shells. My 5 boys have never been more healthy or look better than on prey model. I wish you the best and am glad they are doing better already Tomas.

LOL. I was'nt making a HUGE fuss about it,this was a forum topic and I posted what I knew. It's not like I am going to report anyone for animal cruelty is it. Though my point IS still,YES it does affect EVERY dog short or long haired! My point STILL is they lose so much in sensory perception it's hard to quanitify how much and even if it has been done all their lives. Sure if you were blind all your life you would'nt miss having eyesight,but it's a heck of a lot easier being able to see. Or if you are born with no legs,it's STILL easier to get around WITH legs. I posted on Page 1 "Each individual whisker connects to a specific brain region, so that the dog can actually perceive movements of each whisker. About 40% of the part of the dog's brain that handles tactile information is devoted to the face, and a big piece of that to the region where the whiskers are located. Any time that much brain tissue is devoted to one thing, it's a sure sign that it's an important sensory mechanism." It's not just for touch either..." They help dogs navigate in dim light. As the dog moves, the air currents stirred up by his movements bounce off walls and other objects, and the vibrissae are capable of detecting these and helping the dog avoid walls or other objects. Each hair is capable of being moved by small muscles, and a dog will actively move these back and forth across objects, as well as move his head to get information about the things near his face." So YES their whiskers are INCREDIBLY important,but will they die without them no! All everyone seems to be doing is justifying that they cut them off,so be it,BUT these are HUGELY useful pieces of anatomy! Face facts! No pun intended. Dog show people can be so one eyed! I know you will all agree with me on THAT one!

Doesn't have much to do with showing them, but they DO like to be able to see and they certainly cannot do that if left untrimmed! And anyway, as a gundog, excess hair around faces leaves them more likely to get debris in their eyes. You tell me....what is healthier for the dog..... This You could trim the skull and cut the facial hair not as close? Leaving whiskers intact. Just playing devils advocate here. Would'nt give the head as clean a look though.

Same dog, before and after clipping. GREAT pics! I guess then I would say yeah cut around the whiskers,though I KNOW that is not possible.... But you know where I am coming from don't you,it seems so much of what goes on in preparing a dog for the ring,to make them prettier seems silly... Once I read the Stanley Coren book where he goes into great detail about the whiskers,I was floored that it goes on so widely. Though as I said I have never cut them off,I have dogs with no coat...easy for me to say is'nt it. I guess I would like some happy medium...sigh.

See that's my point,WHY do you have to clip their faces,let alone whiskers? To make them pretty.... but have you ever tried not doing it and see for say 3-6 months if it affects your placings....? So much of what goes on show wise is what is considered the norm...but IMO half of it is a waste of time. I have never cut whiskers off my dogs and yet we still have won multiple BIS and BISS. Never once been told I SHOULD have cut off their whiskers and been showing now 12 years! I know I don't have a coated breed. But it seems you all missed my point. Their whiskers are a HUGE sensory organ, it's verging on mutilation in a sense. But that assertion will have you all up in arms no doubt!

And THAT isn't calling me a horrible person? Lucky I pull them out To follow your analogy, a dog with a lot of facial hair would be like a person wearing thick gloves, so they wouldn't be relying on them to understand their environment. I was'nt giving you an analogy I was giving you facts. I don't care what you do,they are your dogs!

Sure,but take them out of an environment they are used to and maybe they would'nt? I also said personally I don't. I did'nt say " no you can't and what a horrible person you would be if you did!" The analogy of cutting off the skin on your fingers was to liken the effect in that the vibrissae are VERY important sensory tools,just like the ends of our fingers. If you want to cut them off,it's your choice,but after knowing how they are used by a dog I never ever would. Which is also my choice If you feel knowing that "About 40% of the part of the dog's brain that handles tactile information is devoted to the face, and a big piece of that to the region where the whiskers are located. Any time that much brain tissue is devoted to one thing, it's a sure sign that it's an important sensory mechanism." and you still want to cut them off to make them look prettier,go ahead. But at least now you know HOW important they actually are! If you did'nt already.

Surely this is an exaggeration?? There's blood and pain and infection when you cut dog's whiskers?? I'm not questioning your theory, just this analogy seems inflated. It probably is. However I was trying to convey the drastic change a dog would have to go through to relearn so much after losing it's whiskers. I thought I explained it pretty well in the rest of my post.

I never cut off whiskers. Imagine cutting off all the skin on your fingers, THAT is what it feels like for a dog if you do. I have Vizslas and they would run into stuff if I did that. They are all trained in the field. These are also multiple BIS and BISS winning dogs and it never seemed to hinder them doing well in the ring. The whiskers, or more properly, vibrissae, are important sensory mechanisms that the dog uses in several ways. Each individual whisker connects to a specific brain region, so that the dog can actually perceive movements of each whisker. About 40% of the part of the dog's brain that handles tactile information is devoted to the face, and a big piece of that to the region where the whiskers are located. Any time that much brain tissue is devoted to one thing, it's a sure sign that it's an important sensory mechanism. They help the dog detect when something is near his face, and may help them detect whether a surface is rough or smooth, as well as the shapes of objects. They help dogs navigate in dim light. As the dog moves, the air currents stirred up by his movements bounce off walls and other objects, and the vibrissae are capable of detecting these and helping the dog avoid walls or other objects. Each hair is capable of being moved by small muscles, and a dog will actively move these back and forth across objects, as well as move his head to get information about the things near his face. Watch how your dog behaves when he brings his head near an object, of when you lightly touch one of his whiskers. Stanley Coren writes about this in more detail in his book "How Dogs Think". He also described an experiment in which a blind Sheltie (?) had his whiskers cut...the Sheltie was much less able to navigate his surroundings and kept bumping into various things. So personally I don't. Tomas.

I see your point! Though I must admit,when I switched Ollie (he was a brother to one of my other dogs who I took in when his owners could not cope and were going to put him down) he went through awful diarrhea and vomit epsiodes for a few weeks on and off) Like you I suspected triggers,hence the testing we did and was told as I said it WAS everything. I know I went against what they said and I just wanted to relay to you that what I did worked,maybe it was a fluke...who knows. But I started him on chicken,skin off,like breast with the bone in and slowly added stuff,everytime he had a epsiode we went back to what DID work... It did take a while before he never reacted to a food,but we got there. I believe you will get there but it might be a long process. GOOD LUCK! I DO hope for Ruby and YOU ,that you can work this out One last thing Ollie licked his paws and his tummy was red and raw at times ,also he scratched alot for maybe a good 8 months after the switch,so just be patient. You are on the right track. Tomas.

One of my Vizsla had the worst contact and food allergies going! Got so bad he was raw everywhere and would rub his face on concrete till he bled! Did those injected prick tests and he was allergic to beef ,chicken, every green thing known to man,dust mites,household ingredients in cleaners you name it. He was on prednisone and anti-biotics alot! I went prey model raw. 80% meat,10 % edible bone and 10 % offal of which 5 % is liver. After detox which took about a month,your dog may be going through detox symptoms when she is scratching,have you thought of that? He is now100 % fine,can run through grass and eats anything he is given without a reaction! I just thought to hell with it and on advice from other raw feeders I started him on chicken (raw-they said unlikely he would react as the grains were the problem in his dry,not raw),like breast bone in,which is still too much bone but an o.k place to start. Did a week on that and added some gizzards and chicken liver,fine on that so went to beef then some beef heart and some beef liver over the next week to 10 days with chicken meals in between,then lamb,then pork,then rabbit etc etc. All this took about 6 weeks ,he scratched most of this but it got less. I bathed him in diluted Gold Listerine to keep him from reinfecting his skin... Anyway 6 months down the track I have a prefect dog who can run through long grass eat anything and looks amazing. Apart from his grey muzzle,he is 8,he has the body of a 3 year old and the energy level of one too! If she was my dog I would give it a shot,can't be any worse than she is now. I know my boy was a mess for the first few weeks and then it just got gradually less... Oh and adding yoghurt and veggies is a no no in my book. They are sugar and dogs don't need sugar..just like a horse can eat bark but it's not exatcly meant to is it. But if that's all on offer they would eat it so as not to starve. So try 80% meat,10 % edible bone and 10% offal of which 5 % is liver. So in conclusion based on a dermatologists findings my boy WAS highly allergic to everything but I went through things step by step and alot of his scratching after going prey model was detox as the allergens escaped his body. All you can do in that situation is try to ease them through it. Oh and TRY not to freak out,my dog was red raw everywhere and had scabs and bled after scratching,so it can work! I wish you the best of luck.

As dry foods go it's not bad...my main problem with it is the Vitamin K ,listed as menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity) From this link.... http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=menadione "Menadione is added as an inexpensive vitamin K supplement in commercial foods. The common statement as to why it is added is "to help with blood clotting", yet it is scientifically proven that the effectivity of menadione on blood clotting is inferior. Even veterinarians will administer vitamin K1 as an antidote to dogs who have for example ingested rat poison, which causes internal bleeding. Manufacturers who use menadione in their products also like to claim that it is "more stable" than natural vitamin K and has "more nutritional value". Not a single one of them has acknowledged the scientifically proven side effects of this substance. It is simple to come to a conclusion about the truth in these statements when you consider that Not all pet food companies add menadione to their foods and dogs have eaten these products for years without developing deficiencies . the National Research Council was not able to demonstrate a dietary requirement for vitamin K in dogs during tests when natural ingredients were fed and fish meals, liver and green plant supplements (e.g. alfalfa, kelp and other seaweed, nettle leaf, blue-green algae, spirulina) are rich sources of natural vitamin K. Here is a list of negative effects of menadione on the body. causes cytotoxicity in liver cells causes formation of radicals from enzymes of leucocytes, with the consequence of cytotoxic reactions considerably weakens the immune system possible mutagenic effects damages the natural vitamin K cycle has no effect on coumarin derivatives, which are often present in commercial food due to mold contamination (toxic when ingested) causes hemolytic anemia and hyperbilirubinemia, not just linked to large doses disturbs the level of calcium ions (Ca2+) in the body, which is an important factor fibrinolysis is directly toxic in high doses (vomiting, albuminuria), unlike natural vitamin K builds up in tissue and has been detected in eggs, meat and milk of animals supplemented with menadione derivatives causes irritation of skin and mucous membranes causes allergic reactions and eczema " Tomas.

oThat's what I thought initially too,then I figured she cooked this...I guess the only way to find out is to0 email her and ask. Seems many liver disease dogs have been helped on this regime from what I can figure.