tomas

I use the Coromega sachets for me,comes in Lemon/Lime ,Chocolate Orange and Orange,they are YUMMY! http://www.coromega.com/ I give the boys Nordic Naturals Omega 3 Pet. It's one capsule for every 20lbs of weight. http://www.nordicnaturals.com/en/Pet_Produ...0/For_Your_Pet/

I would stay away from all beef bones,other than beef ribs,most beef bones are teeth wreckers,lamb and chicken bones are softest. Also heart is a meaty meat not offal,I call offal organ meat,liver,kidney,sex organs,lung,spleen,pancreas,brain etc etc. Here is how I feed my 5 Hungarian Vizslas. 80% meat,10% edible bone,10 offal,of which 5 % is liver. That's it. These 5 dogs run 2-3 hours a day and I can keep weight on them,fantastic energy and lustrous coats,they are all well muscled and not excess fat. They get NO veggies or any other sugar carb,their only supplement is fish oil,which includes Vit E in the capsule as without it it goes rancid in the body,same applies to humans. I also feel sugar as in any carb feeds nasty bugs in dogs,cancer and joint issues etc etc. If you buy the cheap generic fish oil IMO you are just wasting your money. A few of us have discussed giving veggies or other carbs on here before,I just do not feel they are species appropriate ,others do. It's up to you to feed what you think is best and do your homework. Advice I can give is I would join the rewfeeding and rawchat lists on yahooGroups and learn from there....

Well now I can't see the screen for my tears for you and Molly! Having been through this with my beloved Tomas,who I nursed 24/7 his last week of life I send you my love and hugs,what small comfort that might be. I so hope your last days together will give you some closure to what sounds like a wonderful life you have given her,after rescuing. I wish there were more people out there with hearts as big as yours Hugs Tomas.

It's that krill is SO much more absorbable and reflux free without adding anything to it to make it so. Heaps of info out there so well worth a read. Yeah I take a lot of fish,most of the recomendations for Omega 3 for people is just way too low to do anything,again google that and you will find people taking huge amounts. I have to say that the krill is easier to take,very small caps and really does seem worth the extra expense,my skin is better and it was'nt bad before. Plus my boys coats are EVEN softer and again they had great coats before. On a Vizsla you can see any lump opr bump as they have no undercoat. Here is a good link to start with http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/uncateg.../why-krill-oil/

Hi oonga, Sorry I did'nt word that very well,I meant if the meat you are feeding has been grain fed,most US meat is ,in NZ and Oz some of our meat is ,and unless you buy free range chicken it is grain fed. Not grass fed etc etc. I mean 6 and 9 are inflammatory parts of Omegas...google that. Just write omega 6 and 9 inflammatory in google and read at your leisure. Krill Oil costs! More than fish oil. However, you can get away with less, probably about 1/4 less than fish oil. I would recommend UP to about 4-6 of the 500 mg krill oil capsules daily for a 40 kg dog. Not cheap, but good! Midlife 30kg dogs I have get 2-3 krill caps a day,I actually worked up to 4-6 caps and went back down to 3 or so as I did'nt notice much difference feeding way more. I started on 1 a day for a week then 2 thehn 3 etc etc,just to fiund what worked and also to make sure they had no allergies to shrimp. Again google krill oil dog dosage and you will get pages of info! I google everything I need to know! I also started on krill myself ,I was up to 15 fish caps a day and that was a pain! Tomas.

I only add Omega 3,as Fish or now I solely use Krill oil capsules,it's 47 times more absorbable than Omegas from Fish! Dogs get enough 6 and 9 in their food,esepcially if it is grain fed. So personally I would'nt add a 3 6 9 blend. Too much 6 and 9 will lead to more inflammtory processes in the body and we are giving Omega to try and reduce this.

Yeah oops! Anyway Fear factor is getting good,so I will get off soon. The Latvian one I just posted the link to,is also interesting http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Food+habits+......-a0202074273

Yup,know that,was just bolding it so it was easier to gravitate to.. Got it here... http://www.jstor.org/pss/3682915 Also look at this... http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Food+habits+......-a0202074273

Nope I am a Personal Trainer and 'human' Nutritionist. I am a qualified Archaeologist though,don't ask,I had NO idea what I wanted to be when I was at University! So did that and a Geography. I did a year of Anatomy though ,does that count? BTW when do you graduate? I will have to go find said book.... Am in the middle of third year now, so graduate at the end of 2011. My first degree was genetics - I'm pretty indecisive too! Would love to get the info when you find it. Cool,decided on a thesis yet? I am looking ....and watching Fear Factor.... Don't do one where I study - and we have so much to do already I don't know where we'd fit one in! Only one more year of full time lectures, then they throw us into the teaching clinic for a year to practice on real animals. Might go back a few years after I graduate to specialise & get more fancy letters though. I'm a sucker for higher education. Any ideas on a thesis topic yet? I'd love to do a feeding study on tartar build-up in cats which are fed dental kibble vs regular kibble vs pet roll vs pet roll supplemented with meaty bones & raw meat chunks, but that will have to wait a few years I'm afraid. Cool . I just posted a link to the Mech book online,there is a table on page 8,can't find my book...so far

I found it online,don't have a scanner...page 7....is that what you wanted... http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=_mXHuSS...;q=&f=false

Just found this online though.. We investigated wolf feeding habits in relation to the abundance of wild and domestic ungulates to test the hypothesis that large prey are preferred and that their abundance affects the use of other food categories and diet breadth. We determined diet composition by scat analysis from December 1987 to December 1992. The research was carried out in three study areas located in northern Italy and characterised by marked differences in wild and domestic ungulate abundance. In study area A (low wild and domestic ungulate availability) fruits, livestock, other vertebrates and wild ungulates made up the bulk of the diet (71% in volume). In area B (high availability of livestock) wolf diet was mainly based on sheep and wild boars (80% in volume). In study area C (high availability of wild ungulates) wild ungulates were the main food of wolves (90% in volume). Significant differences were found among study areas in the mean percentage volume of all food categories and in particular for wild ungulates, livestock, other vertebrates and fruits (p < 0.0001 in all cases). Diet breadth decreased in areas with high availability of large wild and domestic herbivores. The use of livestock species was lower where there was high abundance, richness and diversity of the wild ungulate guild. Selection for wild ungulate species was partially affected by their abundance; however other factors as prey social behaviour, adaptability to the habitat (for introduced species), and body size could have an important role in species selection by wolves. In particular in area C wild boars were selected for, roe and red deers avoided, and fallow deers and mouflons used as available. Livestock species were used in relation to their abundance and accessibility, in particular sheep were selected for and cattle avoided; but if calves born in the pastures were considered as the only available cattle, they were selected for and sheep were used as available. Large and in particular wild herbivores were found to be of great importance for the wolf population maintenance in northern Italy, one of the most important recovery areas of Mediterranean wolves. So these Italian wolves ate a lot of pork!!!!

Nope I am a Personal Trainer and 'human' Nutritionist. I am a qualified Archaeologist though,don't ask,I had NO idea what I wanted to be when I was at University! So did that and a Geography. I did a year of Anatomy though ,does that count? BTW when do you graduate? I will have to go find said book.... Am in the middle of third year now, so graduate at the end of 2011. My first degree was genetics - I'm pretty indecisive too! Would love to get the info when you find it. Cool,decided on a thesis yet? I am looking ....and watching Fear Factor....

I am SO inviting myself to your house! How fun was that !!!!! Mind you I have already stated here on like page 2 I like the smell of green tripe!

Nope I am a Personal Trainer and 'human' Nutritionist. I am a qualified Archaeologist though,don't ask,I had NO idea what I wanted to be when I was at University! So did that and a Geography. I did a year of Anatomy though ,does that count? BTW when do you graduate? I will have to go find said book....

Kinda,but I know what you mean,I am envious of those who can get brains and lungs! Go figure. I can get everything else I want just never ever found those bits! Oh and my guys LOVE bull testicles! I've found pig's lungs - at an Asian butcher - look like foam rubber and the dogs were not impressed. Lambs' brains are very expensive. I look there on occasion just never seen that good stuff. I mean they would'nt need it often anyway but I like offering fun stuff,I have 3 who will eat anything!

I used to use a juicer when I did do veggies,worked better for me than a food processor. I too think dry food is propaganda,but you can see how it is easier,I mean you just pour it out and don't have to think about balance over time do ya. I feed my guys just meat offal and bones. They get between 750-1.5kgs a day,based on age,weight,energy level and what they look like.They are 30-40gs. Only supplement I use is krill oil,more absorbable than fish I have found.

Kinda,but I know what you mean,I am envious of those who can get brains and lungs! Go figure. I can get everything else I want just never ever found those bits! Oh and my guys LOVE bull testicles!

I guess I do well then,used to cost me way more than it does now,but I can feed 5 dogs 30-40kgs for less than 100 a week and usually less than 80! Oh and my oldies all have lovely white teeth I had to take Charlie to the vet for a swollen toe last week,he had an infection,ripped it on a tree root running through the forest,she did a quick overall check as he had'nt been in for over 5 years and was telling me about plaque build up on older dogs teeth and opened his mouth and said nothing! I cracked up and said he ate a whole side of lamb for tea just before coming in and she looked at me dumbfounded!

I am going on what Mech writes,his books are heavy going but I really do subscribe to his writing. Wolves have eaten large animals regularly,small animals less regularly,his books have tables of wolf kills and species eaten. I guess we will agree to disagree on the veggies I eat salad too and it is just water,but I like it with balsamic vinegar so I eat it

and we don't want to do that! Well, actually, sometimes I look at my supermarket bill and am very tempted to feed kibble alone. Just joking! I will admit to thinking that myself,I see some peoples dogs at shows and know what they feed,these dogs are stunning and think IF only I did that,it would be so much easier. But longterm it makes a difference, I have 3 dogs over 8yrs and they still run hard minimum 3 hours everyday! Plus they certainly do not look their age.

I agree and chopping a whole beef spleen took me a huge amount of time a few months back,still have over half of it left too! I can see your time was well spent then ,was just pulling ya leg

and we don't want to do that!

The wolves/dogs eating of stomach contents 'philosophy' began as a misunderstanding of what had been written - it was written that wolves would tear into the stomach and eat into the animal from there, when what was meant was that the abdomen was torn open, as it makes for easy access to the softer organ parts. The misinterpretation of abdomen/stomach lead to the misunderstanding that wolves ate, and indeed needed these contents to be healthy. On the contrary, its been noted that once the stomach is torn open and freed from the animal,its contents are shaken out and strewn around for smaller predators to consume once the wolves are finished with the carcass. Wolves primarily eat deer, elk, caribou, moose, bison, mountain sheep,mountain goats , or musk-oxen according to David Mech. He states that although they will eat mice, birds, and rabbits a wolf invests most of its time into trying to capture large animals because they yield enough food for the pack and because it cannot meet its needs in the long run by hunting small animals. They'll expend the energy to hunt small prey to survive, but it is bassackwards, to me, to think that they need to eat/get supplements necessary to survive and be healthy from the tiny stomach contents they might get from eating an occasional small prey animal that they are forced to hunt/eat in order to avoid starving. If the veggies in the stomach of a small prey animal were actually important, a supplement, Mother Nature would have given themthe drive/instinct to hunt small creatures individually-away from thepack- on an everyday/very often basis, not on a forced to survive basis. Wolves hunt as a pack in a strategic manner. They hunt to feed the pack. A rabbit isn't enough food for one wolf let alone a pack. Survival of a species couldn't be dependent on the occasional forced hunting/catching of a rabbit to get the supplement from the stomach of that small prey animal to survive. Wolves would be extinct if that were how they were engineered. To date, man is their only threat for extinction. From "The Way of the Wolf," by Mech (p.60): "Although wolves are primarily killers of large mammals, they will take smaller creatures such as mice and hares, which they must chase and run down. These form a very low proportion of the wolf's diet but may be important when raising pups. This is because younger and less experienced wolves in the pack can hunt smaller prey and help feed themselves and the pups when food demand is especially high." Again, the small prey is a survival tactic. It helps the pack to survive when food demand is high. It helps the younger wolves take the burden to provide off the older ones. The older wolves don't eat the small prey animals. They're off eating the big ones:) I just don't hear supplementation for optimal health from this.

I'd argue with that. :-) First I'd argue with the notion that wolves don't eat vegetable matter. Wolves have been observed to eat unprocessed vegetation and fruit, e.g. in Yellowstone park in seasons where prey was scarce (which is of course a not uncommon scenario in wild populations, where predator and prey cycles ensure hunting is regularly scarce). Wolves also eat vegetable matter in the rumen & intestines of prey species. They eat small prey whole - including the gut contents - which contains processed vegetation and grains. They tend to shake out the guts of large species, but due to the huge surface area of the rumen, there is always a reasonable amount of vegetable content eaten along with the guts (I've opened and cleaned out a rumen, and can assure you that there's no way you could get all that vegetable matter out just by shaking - even a thoroughly shaken out rumen still contains a fair amount of half fermented vegetable matter stuck to the walls). So processed vegetable content is a minor part of the diet of wolves and feral dogs. If you're aiming to replicate a wild wolf's diet, then you need to include some vegetable matter to do so. Secondly, I'd argue with the popular notion that dogs "can't" digest vegetables because they can't digest the cellulose found in cell walls. To start with, it's silly claim - humans can't digest cellulose either, yet we obviously seem to be able to get nutritional value out of vegetables! It's also possible to observe that while some vegetables my dog eats certainly do come out the same shape they went in (eg, carrots spring to mind), some vegetable products just don't reappear at the other end. If they're not breaking down in the dog's guts, then where are they going? And if they are breaking down, how can the dog "not digest" them? Not picking on you Tomas - just think you're wrong. Star and yellowgirl I am trying to save these people some time! LOL. Dogs don't have molars to crush vegetable matter,they CAN eat it,but they can also eat a whole bunch of stuff and 'survive'...what I am saying is it is not NEEDED. I can't be bothered with veggies,yes I did that maybe for 2 years about 10 years ago and my guys do even better without it. They get meat,edible bone and offal. I go through phases with Tripe,have even not fed it for over a year ,to no detriment of them,they look and act just the same without it. As I said in my post if it is good enough for the worlds foremost expert on Wolves and our dogs ARE wolves save a few dna sequences,then I am good with that.

Are you kidding? WHAT on earth are you doing for that long. I feed 5 dogs everyday,takes 5 mins prep THAT day. If you were mushing veggies? I don't feed veggies,complete waste of time IMO. David Mech writes (worlds foremost expert on wolves and before anyone says our dogs are not wolves...google that one.) "It has what is known as a simple stomach which cannot digest the thick cellulose of most plants. Instead, the wolf can best digest meat and fat. In addition, the wolf's teeth are shaped entirely differently from the teeth of plant eaters. The latter are usually flattened, rough, or blocky. The wolf's teeth, on the other hand, are sharp and pointed-ideal for grabbing, holding, tearing, and shearing. It is just as ludicrous to imagine a wolf munching branches or gnawing tree bark as it is to think of a deer trying to catch and tear apart another animal. A wolf is destined, by its whole anatomy, to be a meat eater." from "The Way of the Wolf" I also noticed that when Mech refers to wolves not needing/being able to digest/eat plant matter, he's referring to vegetation in nature that isn't recommended by Barfers to put into the veggie glop-branches vs broccoli:) So if the reason to blend, puree, and pulverize is because a wolf/dog can't digest the cellulose from plants, then Mother Nature could not have intended for wolves/dogs to eat them because she didn't create them with the equipment to process them. The veggie thing has to be a man made edifice. If you read the Mech books, you'll find that all kinds of research and conclusions on wolves are drawn from working with the physiology of dogs. If that is good enough for Mech, who is a researcher and a scientist, its got to be good enough for me:) Mech has no interest in what i feed my dogs, he needs scientific data to further his goals of studying wolves and their place in the world and conservation. In regards to kibble, i think we can assume that the same people who tell us kibble is good for our dogs are the same people who tell us veggies are necessary for our dogs. Pictures of fresh beans and carrots make a very attractive bag/ad for a bag of kibble. After all, everyone knows we need to eat our veggies:) Marketing at its finest playing on old held beliefs that if its good for us and if we love our dogs than it must be good for them. Lots of emotion, no logic. Lots of sales means lots of cash:) In reading the Mech books, he discusses about wolves being opportunistic carnivores. He has observed them scavenging on garbage at dump sites to eat. Wolves can/will eat anything to survive and since they are not obligate carnivores, they will survive on any type of diet, but we don't want our dogs just to survive;we want our dogs to thrive and get the best and have the best shot at a healthy life that we can offer them.