Bindii

I do understand where you're coming from.. I just find it odd that I did not even have a blood test when i had my tonsils removed at 17 years old... Is it different in human medicine?

This is very true. And I think, especially as a nurse, that you tend sway toward what is done around you. Having said that, I worked at a clinic prior to this one where i was to offer and encourage bloods prior to desexings.. but when i had my own pug done there the vets laughed and said "he's a perfectly healthy young dog, you don't really need to get it done, but it's up to you.." I got them done. He was a perfectly healthy young dog. Unfortunately even at cost price to have these bloods done on the special card it cost me a heap. I felt guilty encouraging this to clients when i knew even the vets working around me thought it was a waste of time.

Two very contrasting posts within a minute! Believe what you wish

I recently heard of a clinic that offered gold, silver and bronze options for desexing. The gold i think included iv fluids and bloods (and was about $500) Silver included bloods only and bronze was just the surgery itself. What a guilt trip! At our clinic we don't do bloods - a healthy pet should not need this - some clients are shocked to hear this after ringing around other vets whose nurses preach about it's necessity! If there is something wrong with them which would effect a GA then it would be present in the animal in it's growth or it would seem unwell in some way. If a sick animal requires surgery, bloods are usually an early part of their work-up anyway so we would already know what was going on with them. Do you have a blood test before a day surgery?? I certainly never have. We only advise i/v fluids to older or sick patients requiring surgery... All patients that i have witnessed recover from desexing quickly and smoothly and recovery at home goes just as well. I think bloods and i/v fluids for desexing is a complete money making scam. JMHO ETA (after reading the post below): Pain relief is given as part of a premed an lasts up to about 12 hours. I have only seen one case return (in the last 2 years) with a bitch that seemed painful still the next day, and they were given extra pain relief. All other clients return with stories of how happy there dogs were on the night of the surgery, or at least by the next morning. Obviously staff are fully qualified and medical equipment is monitered by 2 nurses and the vet performing the surgery. Hospital wear is also warn - including gloves... have never heard of a clinic not using them and it's disgusting to think that it would be suggested that they wouldn't (in response to the post below). Full nurse supervision during recovery - we have 2 surgery nurses and 1 hospital nurse... agree that this is not standard. Bitch - $190 Dog - $140 (slightly cheaper if under 6 months)

Jed i just love your chosen breed!!! How clever!! WOW I have such a clear idea in my head of what they look like

Bah! you're no fun

In response to what you said about short legs etc, can I just remind you that this discussion began with a pet buyer. A pet purchaser doesn't need length of leg. As far as pets are concerned, temperament really is everything (bar a crippled dog) A shy dog might do fine with a bit of work with an experienced owner, but someone who wants the happy go lucky Samoyed they saw at the park or in the ring should be able to have that without much work, and generally this is the way Samoyeds are, so why use one that isn't that way when you have so many to chose from that are happy and confident? Straight stifles will never kill anyone in a state of extreme fear, and the problems associated with cat feet will never result in a dog being rehomed multiple times or being put to sleep. Apart from the standard, the 'real world' also calls for sound temperament.

This is a very interesting discussion and I am thoroughly enjoying it, I would love some input from others In answer to bolded question above - the puppies parents. And if you're really keen or even interested in using the pup for breeding, the dogs behind that pup, the litter mates, previous pups that those parents have sired. Of course you can never be certain how a dog will grow up to be, but you can lessen the chances just like with everything in breeding dogs. Precisely. But you did say that it would be the "worst decision of [my] breeding career", so people can certainly try to force then, can't they And this is interpretation of the standard. You read affection to all mankind as simply being "not showing aggression" to all mankind. And i read affection to all mankind as, well, affection to all mankind (not just not interacting, but literally, as it states, showing affection, so happy, smiling, greeting etc) I feel, that if the standard was really suggesting that a Samoyed can be wary or stand-offish that it would state something like what is in the Japanese Spitz standard: "Affectionate, companionable. Slightly chary at first meeting with strangers." But the Samoyed standard doesn't.. It says "Affection to all mankind" and then, as you've said, "severe unprovoked aggression" is a fault. It doesn't say anything 'in between' like the JS standard does. So that is how I read it. And that is interpretation In my original essay post on this topic i stated that temperament is mostly hereditary, as in, the original slate you have to work with is there. My dog may have grown up to be different in someone else's hands, if he were constantly bashed, hit, starved, or caged, of course there is fair reason for his temperament to then seem unsound.. he would be fearful, and possibly even aggressive! If i went to a breeders property and was greeted by 6 happy go lucky fun bouncing Samoyeds and then there was a wary, shy, stand-off ish type hanging at the back, I would be questioning why the dog was like that. One would assume all of the dogs would have been brought up in the same consistent environment.. what causes this one shy one? If the breeder had no good answer or excuse then one could mostly assume that it was just a genetic flaw, right? I honestly think that if breeding is poor enough, shyness/nervousness and aggression come hand in hand. The most nervous dogs that enter the clinic are breeds such as Rottweilers and German Shepherds. Make of that what you will. (Generally Samoyeds are not nervous, but i wouldn't want to think that if breeders kept breeding from shy and nervous dogs and bitches that it would result in aggression coming out too) Given that I am completely new to this, and I don't have a lot to work with as a new comer, if my bitch (who doesn't exist at the moment and possibly hasn't even been thought about!) grows up to be nervous or shy (as in - by the time she is 12 months, obviously there are stages of development etc) then I will not be using her as my foundation bitch.. I would not want to start with that. Similarly, if her hips were shocking, or there were any other major faults! Regardless of the fact that she wasn't 'aggressive' i wouldn't want to start with a soft bitch. Is that honestly the worst decision I could make, the very first one that i make in my breeding career? Perhaps I'm not off to a good start!

I'm really quickly replying here from work but just want to say that my original comment about temperament was in referrence to perfect hips. I never implied that temperament was everything and the only thing that matters... The original point I intended making was that there is no 'one' thing that is the most important - the point I was making was that a puppy should not just be bought because the parents have good hips. The original conversation began with a puppy buyer and for them temperament should be very important, they probably wouldn't really give a stuff about cat feet anyway, nor know what that means! (not that I think it's ok, but for a pet it makes no difference) I would chose a dog with higher hips over one with an unsound temperament (and the degree of 'unsoundness' would be unique to each and everyone of us) to be used for breeding. You think that would be s bad decision in my breeding, and I think cutting out a dog with a hipscore of 20 for the reason of the hipscore *only* is a bad decision.. But you have more experience, so I'm understanding that I may be incorrect on this opinion. All that you said about being open minded and researching a dog is true- for all factors of what makes up a Samoyed... Temperament, structure, lines, hips etc etc etc. Just like how a photo can cover flaws or make a fabulous dog look awful, or a dog can be run at an angle to cover it's weakness or run too fast and make it look incorrect... The point you made about affection toward mankind completely ignored the emphasis I put on the fact that it says "all" mankind in the standard and the ideals I have of a Samoyed. What prompted the line about being kennel blind?

But did you then continue to leave your dog in a yard that you knew wasn't fully fenced? No one is saying that the reason the dog got bashed was because it was roaming, what is being said is that it was very irresponsible of the owner to continue leaving the dog in a yard which he knew was not adequately fenced (the fact that the second article suggests that the dog had been out on a number of occasions previously) regardless of whether it is one day or 5 weeks, it is a risk to leave a dog in a poorly fenced yard- risk that the dog will get out and be either a) bashed or b) hit by a car... Regardless of what one thinks the cause of the injury was, the fact is that the dog should have been contained more adequately!

An interesting look at the study of temperament in dogs: From about 3 minutes in to this video, and continues in the following video too "THE SECRET LIFE OF THE DOG (4/6)" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIoKQ6KUPck...feature=related "THE SECRET LIFE OF THE DOG (5/6)" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bN7uj0baDos...feature=related The entire program is absoloutely fascinating, but these two clips refer to what we're discussing here regarding temperament and it's genetic nature.

Hi Bindii, You've brought up something here that not everyone might understand. Im not being picky here, and we all have our opinions, but I don't fully agree with your comment here, and I will explain why, after some gives a crack at some questions below. not just for Bindii, anyone can have a crack this Skittish or soft... what definition do you give to this? and before making a judgment, could there be underlying factors (reasons) why a dog is skittish or soft? Is it hereditary? If a parent of a dog was skittish or sofy, why would you knock a puppy back? I'm not sure if you have written this in order to create some interesting discussion, or if you really think it's okay if a Samoyed's temperament isn't completely sound. Soft/Skittish: When i say this I am referring to a dog that is easily frightened by noises or places, but more importantly nervousness or unsure around people. I don't mean skittish as in a playful jumpy dog, i mean 'skittish' as in jumps when a noise is heard, tail down etc and I say 'soft' in the way of it's reaction to being touched etc. Our standard states that a Samoyed should "above all display[ing] affection towards all mankind." May i emphasize All mankind. If a Samoyed is afraid of a judge or even a puppy buyer coming to meet the parents of their pup, it certainly does not meet that particular part of the standard (which personally i feel is probably the most important thing listed in our standard for a puppy buyer (pet home) ) Another thing we know about our beautiful breed is their history of protecting their people. You yourself, Icemist, wrote in your reply at the beginning of this thread about the Samoyed temperament you then went on to quote something that you felt best describes this temperament While breeders are breeding to continue the beautiful characteristics of this breed, including temperament, how could we ever expect a Samoyed to protect if it were afraid of a gust of wind that passes over the tent of the Samoyede children? These are the reasons that i would stay away from purchasing a dog or bitch from a soft tempered dam or sire that I intended using for breeding - these i feel are very important characteristics of the breed and not something i would want to steer away from. As far as someone who is purchasing a Samoyed as a pet - which lets face it, generally 80-90% of a litter goes to a pet home anyway, i feel that it is extremely important that their puppy gets the best chance at having a sound temperament right from the word go - their genetic make up. That way there is less chance of behavioural issues in the future, something that often leads to dogs ending up in pounds or even euthenased (not something that i have ever seen or heard of in Samoyeds - but not something i ever do want to see happen either!) Of course upbringing and experiences have an effect on a dogs temperament but there is the underlying foundation there that determines how a puppy will be and how it will cope in different situations. I don't believe that one bad experience should effect a Samoyed for life, as i said above, Samoyeds were protectors and friends to all man kind, one scary situation should not change all of that, i feel that their temperament should be strong enough to cope with that. All scientific writings that I have read on dogs temperament suggests that a huge percentage of that comes from their genetic make up, it is a fairly agreed on belief between scientist, vets, breeders etc as far as I was aware. It is one of the very reasons it is recommended that puppy buyers meet the parents of their puppies, one of the (many) reasons why we say pet shops are so awful - because who knows what the parents are like, and there is no option to meet them. I feel that if a dog is displaying signs of unsound temperament then you know for sure that it has the chance of passing it on, so there is risk involved. Of course a dog could be carrying the genes to throw a dog with a soft temperament even tho that dam/sire doesn't display it but that is why breeding is always somewhat of a gamble. The idea is to try an lessen the chance of things you don't want cropping up. And i must add... I would have never though of Dakota as having a soft or skittish temperament... She is probably the most out going and friendly doggy at the Kepala meet ups! What are you talking about I must just also add that I really am new to all of this, my opinions are those only from what I have learnt in the last year of being involved with this breed, and also from that of my studies that i am completing through work - while i have done a lot of research on the breed in this time I understand that perhaps I may not be completely correct about everything and I am not trying to say at all that I am completely correct. In the end it is each persons interpetation of the standard and history of the breed and also our own ideals. Working in the animal industry where I see a lot of the 'other side' type of stuff, for me, temperament is definitely so important, and from what I understand, it is particularly important in this breed.

I don't know that zero is unrealistic but it dosn't happen all that often. At this stage I would be going for as low as possible. As for the dog being imported it is possible the scoring system is different in Canada, but the breeder should be able to talk you through it. EDT, having a brain dead moment :D The buyer also needs to be aware of more things than just having as lower score as possible. A huge thing would be temperament, of course. If the dam or sire was skittish or soft, even if they had a score of 0:0 I wouldn't want one! Not sure what good means but i'd double check if they've had them scored by via the AVA scheme to get a better comparison. Breed average is currently 16.93 (according to when I had Fletcher done in February) He's Lucas's brother, isn't he?

Interesting topic. I've always been one for "zomg never breed anything over the breed average" But I was speaking to a vet about it the other day, i was discussing hips and their impact on breeding and whether or not one should boycott a particular dog or line because of a slightly higher than average score and she got me thinking on a different level. I thought the point was to lower the score and rid the Samoyed popularity of hip dysplasia. I thought the vet would agree... but the vet actually didn't feel that hip score of around 20 would be such a terrible thing as far as the Samoyed gene pool, and was far more concerned with hip scores ruling breeding, resulting in a smaller gene pool. If this is a dogs only fault, if it is healthy in all other ways and dogs in it's pedigree have had no problems, then should it completely impact breeding? Afterall, a score of 20 may not ever effect a dog, or at least not until an old age. 20 is *just* over breed average - and given that most scores are well under 10 means that there are many that are *much* worse - they should not be bred from. Of course it would be ideal not to breed anything above the breed average, but i now fear that if that was the only thing that people considered the gene pool would shrink considerably and it's already not a huge one. More things would crop up from close breeding and that could bring with it far worse things than a hip score of 20. Remember that hip scores are just that - they are a score. If a dog is not crippled with a score of 20, what really is the problem? breeding to a dog with a lower score is smart, and i'm sure there were many other considerations to their pedigrees, personal health and future when a dog with a higher score was used. Breeding two very close lines is probably a far bigger risk because there may be underlying health issues that are recessive and will only crop up when two closely related dogs are mated. If i were to import a dog and his hip score was 20, what is more important? The fresh lines my dog would bring, or the risk of passing on a slightly higher than average hip score?

Yep... I believe that dogs recognise that a mirror has a reflection of themselves in it. Our bedroom's cupboard doors are full mirrors, when we first moved into this house Hugo would bark at himself as at our old house there were no mirrors that he could see. He would also forget and wake up at 2am barking at the 'dog in the mirror' It took him about 2 days to work it out. Both of my dogs have NO interest whatsoever in the 'dog in the mirror' but both will see me in the mirror and when i make eye contact with them (their reflection), motion them over to me, or up onto the bed, they will turn around to come to me (not into the mirror) I think dogs would not respond well to the coloured bit of fur on their forehead experiment because i'm sure if i coloured my dogs fur in a spot that they *could* see, like a paw etc, they'd probably have no interest in that either... but a chimp would. I'm not sure how this particular experiment is being run but i am interested to see the results as from my own experience, my dogs recognise that the dog is just their reflection

My understanding that their purpose is to protect their eyes and nose... Try it... poke the whiskers above your dogs eye, he'll blink. The ones on his nose, he'll twitch it! I'm glad my breed doesn't generally have whiskers (or anything) clipped off

Come say hi!

I'd go breeder 2. If both are equal as legit as eachother, the fact that you 'clicked' with breeder 2 will be beneficial for you if you ever needed advice etc. Even though breeder 1 sounds lovely too.. i think friendship/clicking is definitely a great bonus! If you really are happy to travel, I'd chose breeder 2

:p ;) I love how famous this guy has become for his life like impersonations of a dangerous dog ;) Was so excited to see him on the 7pm project tonight

Hugo and I are thinking of Lola and you today, Huga!! (Fletcher just doesn't understand :D ) Best wishes and positive vibes!

:laugh: :rofl: Oh my doG. thanks for posting the link that was hilarious. I should go watch the rest of it now though to contribute to the actual discussion of the story.

Oh my gosh.. definitely Shadow from Homeward Bound

It certainly can happen if they're not manned 24/7. The clinic I work at has a nurse in all night every night - regardless of the number of patients or the extent of the care needed. A vet is also on call (for clients - not an advertised number) Prices here are surprisingly often cheaper than some other vets in the area that don't have someone overnight I'm sure clinics like this exist in SA? We are not an ICU/emergency clinic, but we do get referrals from other locals vets for overnight care. I'm sure your vets would understand if you asked for information on another vet that had 24/7 care given what happened with Renae. How embarrasing for them that this happened, but at least they were honest. Definitely ask for a discount considering she obviously was not on the drip the entire time. Hope she is feeling better soon

My nervous energy (still a newb!) comes out in combing and combing and combing.. I wouldn't know what to do with myself with a wash and wear kind of dog!

Macka - we basically have the exact same situation! Hugo will eat anything and everything.. an absoloute pig. Fletcher is fussy and some days chooses to eat no more than a mouth full. I sit them down together, they eat next to each other. Hugo finishes in a matter of moments (because he only gets a third of a cup of dry food plus a few sardines or a chicken neck) and Fletcher has to be finished in 10 minutes. I supervise the whole time. I feed them once only in the evening before bed so i never have any where that i have to be in a hurry or anything. Puggerup - maybe add something yummy like sardines to Miley's food. Really, she will not starve herself. She WILL eat eventually once she realises that there is no other option. If she were a growing puppy or something then I would not recommend this method but she's not, she's a healthy grown adult dog and she will work out that she has to eat what she is given and when it's there for her (for 10 minutes) I think - think yourself lucky! She knows what size she should be. Fletcher is a PERFECT weight - and like i said, some days he barely eats. Hugo weighs 7.3kg, he is on a strict diet (mentioned above) but for it he is a healthy little man with no breathing problems and can run all day. He is also much less likely to develop issues with his patellas in the future - not to mention every other disease an over weight dog is at risk of. It's not too late, just make a few changes and be very strong about it... don't give in to those eyes! Hugo has even given up staring at us during (human) dinner time