RubyStar

Was starting to get it before, but yours was clearer than the internet mumbo jumbo as it was in more English Your explanation needed to be read over just as many times as all the other ones to sink in, though

To my knowledge, no. They have liver pigment. Ok, so a NBP yellow, are they liver pigmented? or no pigment? Liver.... I think....!

GG85, more info on the black phenomena :) Epistasis Epistasis, as defined by iGenetics: a Molecular Approach, “is the interaction between two or more genes that controls a single phenotype. For instance, the expression of a gene at one locus can mask or suppress the expression of a gene at another locus.” (733). Labrador coat colour inheritance, the E (expression allele) masking B (pigment allele) is an example of recessive epistasis, where an individual homozygous for E (ee) masks the pigment coded for by the B allele, resulting in a yellow dog, despite the genotype at the B locus (BB, Bb, or bb). The homozygous e allele does not completely restrict the expression of the B locus alleles as they are responsible for the pigmentation of the iris, lips, nose, and eye rims of a yellow dog (Templeton 1997).

To my knowledge, no. They have liver pigment.

Yes we established Gibbs is a yellow carrying choc I think! Black is dominant in that it is always there? but is masked by the others with the right combination to do so.... The perfect yellow is my Ruby :nahnah: but I think that is biased mummy talking ;) I'm after more perfect Lab babies.... that is in my future :)

He could produce black puppies IF paired with the correct Mrs to do so :) ie. if he's not paired with a yellow. He should have black babies if mated to a black or choc.

Yah but I want a chocy baby for me But yellows are best :p

Don't rule out yellows that don't carry choc for Heeni's new man, Tapua

I cannot say you are "wrong", I don't know enough myself. All I can say is black is not a gene that is CARRIED, sort of like it is there by default and the other genes play a matchmaking game of masking that gene, or not. That other site HERE explains how what each parent passes on can produce the black. If you ask me to put it in plain English, well, I can't Edit to highlight a sentence I wrote, I think the lightbulb finally went off for myself as to how the blacks come about of course I could be wrong, but it made sense in my head! :p

The thing is I think, is that black isn't carried by any of the colours. Black is dominant. Your pup will carry choc, and his black littermates will be carrying choc and yellow. His littermates aren't carrying black. Possible combinations: EEBB =Basic Black (BB) EEBb =Black that carries Choc. (Bc) EeBB =Black that carries Yellow(By) EeBb =Black that carries Yellow and chocolate (Byc) eeBB =Yellow (Yy) [does not carry chocolate] eeBb =Yellow that carries Chocolate (Yc) eebb =chocolate pigmented yellow ~ No Black Pigment (NBP) EEbb =Chocolate (CC) [does not carry yellow] Eebb =Chocolate that carries yellow (Cy)

I love how this thread has gone waaaaaaaaaaaaay off topic But at least not in a negative way! :D

Yellows with liver pigmentation can be nicknamed "dudleys". eg. Correct pigment in a yellow:

Yep, black nose, eye rims, lips.... not the skin, though! Choc labs don't have black pigment, though. Their nose and eye rims and lips should be a liver colour. Blacks will have black pigment, and yellows should have black pigment (but can have that liver pigment which again is that undesirable trait mentioned when you mate certain types together).

This is doing my head in....where is the black coming from!!! lol I think I'm going to stop here before my head explodes, I've got an anatomy exam to prepare for, and learning lab colour genetics won't help me pass lol Check out the link I posted above, it explains it :) Though the choc doesn't "carry" black, black is dominant and exists as long as the dog has black pigment. It's so hard to get ones head around it when the dog doesn't carry black but has to have black there to pass it on :laugh: That website will explain it better than I could (as I'm trying to get my head around it, too! )

This explains it http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/color.html

MG check out the link buddy1 posted (I am often there reading it as I find it fascinating). Chocs cannot "carry" black. I also still don't see how blacks come about, but it is true :) This is more than likely the combination that produced your boy's litter: http://www.blueknigh...color/cy-y.html

Grew up loving the look of Labradors. Was never allowed one as we were a "small dog" family. I was one eyed towards the Lab ever since and even reading up on how boisterous they are I still wanted one. Got one as an adult as soon as I was able to and now will never be without one!!! I usually pick based on looks, temperament and what I want to do with them. Several breeds I love the look of, but won't suit the dog sports I am interested in. Gundog temperaments and their ability to partake in gundog related sports sell gundogs to me! It's an added bonus they are awesome looking :D

They can carry the choc gene. But if you mate 2 yellows together, regardless of what they carry, you will always only get yellow pups. I don't see how that is possible, if mating two yellows is guaranteed yellow, then it must be recessive...if they can carry chocolate, and mating two yellows that both carry chocolate, then there would still be a chance of chocolate pups I can't comment on the why's as even though I find genetics really interesting, I haven't studied it past a unit in year 11 human biology :laugh: But, Yellow who carries Choc. to a Yellow who carries Choc = 25% Yy, 50% Yc, and 25% NBP They will all be yellow, but statistically half of them will carry the choc gene, 25% will not, and 25% of them will not have any black pigment (which is an undesirable trait in Labs).

They can carry the choc gene. But if you mate 2 yellows together, regardless of what they carry, you will always only get yellow pups.

From my understanding, chocs can't carry black. They can only carry yellow. MG's pup was most likely from a Eebb to eeBB mating (choc carrying yellow, and a yellow). Or something like that

smisch, it's ok I wasn't having a go I would have said the exact same thing to anyone who said that in person, then had a giggle after it with them ;) Sorry smisch, but that's bollocks!!!!!!! I've had yellow and now chocolate; no behaviour difference. The chocs at obedience are no different to the yellows or blacks. In fact in regards to excellent behaviour there's a chocolate female at obedience that is a stand-out. I've heard this rumour before and i've never found any factual evidence to support the claim; there are chocolates used in a number of guide dogs associations across the world. I had to put an obedience class through their graduation exam and no it wasn't bias, but I put through in first place a young chocolate Lab bitch. She wasn't crazy at all, quite calm actually, and did well for her owner. There is also a chocolate guide dog I regularly see at my train station stop :)

I love genetics!

Sorry smisch, but that's bollocks!!!!!!! RS i am lab ignorant but have heard it said that if you put two choc's together you only get diluted choc and that is very bad? Same as two merle collies? Just wondering if this is true or not? I know nothing of lab colour genetics I'm not full bottle on lab genetics myself and I welcome those who are to come in and correct me or elaborate but no, it isn't as simple as saying it is bad to put 2 chocs together and this dilute thing due to mating 2 chocs I don't think exists. Labs can carry yellow, chocolate and black (black dominant) and sometimes it can help to know what colours they carry so you can mate accordingly. There is never a "dangerous" combination like mating 2 merles, but it is preferred not to mate chocolate to yellow (if they don't carry black I think it is?) as you can end up with light pigmentation which isn't desirable (but has no health effects). Hopefully someone with more knowledge can come in and help out with this question! :)

Admittedly I have a "crazy choc", but that is not due to her coat colour. In the words of "that breeder", mine is a lovely dark rich chocolate liver colour. However, when she's coat dropping at the end of winter, her coat is patchy and lighter and looks a shocker until she has fully shed it all! Then it goes back to a really lovely colour.

Sorry smisch, but that's bollocks!!!!!!!