denis_c

K9: I think when you add to a public forum, then promise to provide evidence, then come back & give an excuse like this it doesnt say much about the proof you claim to have. K9: being busy myself, I totally udnerstand that, but have these commitments come aliong since you vowed to give us this proof? Sometimes you act and sound like a real low life. Yes i have it, and it contributes to the discussion. But guess what , it is not available for you to have a go at, misrepresesent,not analyse properly and to shout down becuase it isn't your point of view. I don't have weeks to painfully take you through some basic phsyis stuff so that you have any idea of understanding what i have to say, and of top of that put up with you rudeness and arrogance as we work through these issue. Besides that you know it all Above all, I just don't have sucker tattoed on my forehead. Denis Cody

Ahhhh ..... now I see the confusion Haven had. Denis Carthy is DEFINITELY a different person to Denis Cody. Thanks Oonga, for picking up on this. Yes I am a different person, I have made a reply. I am not going to release it here. There are many many messages here, mostly of a pretty aggressive and anti nature, mostly lacking much further new thought on the subject. So rather than inflame the situation and release it to a group of people that will almost certainly not take any of what i have to say on board , you are very welcome to have a copy of it and a graph showing the true field in a dog and some other mostly academic references that might make your decision to use or not to use an e collar easier by PMing me. As you can imagine, being one of very few voices against a quite a few, it is hard work keeping up. I do have a job to do, Dogs to train, friends to talk to, a relationship to mantain Thanx

Look ,these diagrams are relative to the current conducting through the main path. The current thorugh the main path is measurable not neglible. If you have a look at the taser and reduced it to suit it would look pretty similar to the e collar. The current conducts by the way, it doesn't radiate a hell of a lot. Why am I doing this? Well it seems there are two sides to this arguement, one lot who would slap on an e collar if it had a tail and a nose and walked, and another lot that think that e collars are the devil's invention. I would like to see a more factual and evidence based discussion rather than a usual DOL board on anything like this where manners seem to go out of the window , (Look at the message above I have been told I am incorrect by someone who is a layman rather than may be asked if I am mistaken or could I elaborate?) and an extremist element who hop on anyone that might have a hope of presenting a different case or some views that could be included in a journey to working out what the truth is. If that is what you want to do, just rename the site or have a warning that people like myself with dissenting views aren't really welcome for some reason or other.I can respect that. and we will all be happy I think that wiser people than me realise that when these discussions come up it is really a back slapping session for those who use e collars and keep away. I am just a little more persistent because I see the truth get mangled in the process along with a few of our canine companions.

Hi I was using this article to make a single point, which is that a two terminal device will produce a radial not a point to point pattern. That is all. Off course the taser uses much higher voltages, off course it is meant to be a man stopper. The field pattern that a Taser produes is of much higher intensity than an e collar, but it's pattern is very very similar. I thought i had made that clear. It is often stated to the point of ad nauseum that the e collar current flows (in a striaight line) from point to point. This is not a correct or reasonable assertion so I thought that a picture of the current flow of a two terminal device would be helpful for people to visualise. I thought that the discussion about how the muscle protects the organs was a bit interesting too from a general knowledge point of view, and form where the current might flow in a dog.. If anything what I am saying on this issue should not help or hinder any side of this debate. It is just important to get the info right . I am just trying to get the facts straight and loose the pro and anti hysteria in this debate. Yes I am an electronics engineer. SInce it seems important in this conversation, would you like to tell me what your occupation is ?

Hi People You have raised some points that I need to illustrate and expand on which I am happy to do. Unfortunately i am away from my reference material (I am at work) and will produce a reply tomorrow evening. I have a couple of dogs and a dog class tonight, and I would prefer to produce an accurate reply which takes a little time.

I also use common sense when I train dogs. I realise that events like this can occur, and it is obvious to all and sundry that a time out can not be used. It is why I am not an absolutist.

From a 12 volt battery. As I understand it, "shock" was a word more in line with the early-day stim-collars (or e-collars) ..... where the current (?) generated went through the dog's neck to a contact point on the other side of the collar. Stim or e-collars are much more sophisticated now (as is their use in training methodology) and the stimulation created by the 12 volt battery travels only through the skin to the nearby contact point. Gemibabe .... what training method would you use and how, to reliably achieve proofing against (eg) a high prey drive dog (eg) chasing live-stock ?? Erny, I don't want to come to blows over this, but this isn't right. Inside the ecollar is a circuit which boosts the 12 volts to somewhere between 500 -2000 volts. I hesitate to write this beause it seems a little sensational. What happens is that the cirucit is high impedance, once the current starts flowing the voltage drops back. A good article to read is on the Taser http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/dec07/5731/taserf2 . This article deals with how a Taser works which is much higher voltage but the princiapls are much the same. Note how the current flow is radial ( NOT point to point) and note how muscle layers can protect organs from damage. The IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers) is the peak body of these engineers world wide. So I don't get misquoted here is my position All Aversives should be used sparingly. If I have to use an Aversive, I tend to use properly applied time out. I find the ANKC stance on e collars and prong collars a little hypercritical, and I believe that e collars or pinch collars are no better no worse than correction collars. I don't seek to have any of these banned as reasonable use is a restriction of reasonable personal choice. In my day to day training, it would be very rare that I would seek to use any kind of Aversive. .I belong to a type of trainer that would in general hold to these principals and who back it up with high levels of success in dog sports. You would only need to look at the participants in "Top Dog" to check the veracity of this statement. Denis Cody

"The collar is either humane, or it isn't. It's humane imo. Since it is a humane training tool... Why should I use it as a last resort or only on problem dogs? If it was inhumane... I'd never use it, not even on problem dogs." Actually, this statement is not logically consistent. there are many other options too! But, this is outside of the topic. I would suggest that you have a look at a few books on Logic, often covered at the Undergraduate level in Maths or Philosophy. That would clear this misunderstanding up.

I am always alarmed with the emotions that flow on these topics and the lack of leadership based on factual information given by the pros. I am an avowed "positive" trainer, but am no absolutist. I do see the need for the use of Aversives occasionally, or to paraphrase Lindsay when all posiitve alternatives are exhausted. E collars are clearly another Aversive. What alarms me is when In my opinion , Aversives seem to me to be used as a first up item or suggestion on this forum. I reckon Lindsay's chapter" Aversive Control of Behavior" in his Handbook of Applied Dog Behaviour and Training should be compulsory reading Before discussions are started. I think that the concept of working levels needs further work. One Anedocte is that I have a chocolate Labrador, and I can tell you that he walked away from a scrap with another dog with no visible signs of pain, but spent several days in the Vet with quite major injuries. While one anedocte doesn't make a scientific or sound approach, I have yet to see a convincing case that working levels are that sound . Perception and impact of pain is a highly difficult subject and is a major reason why aversives should be used as a last resort..What working levels do do is make the novice feel more comfortable with using an adversive. "Look Ma the dog isn't really hurting!". I also think that the over use and over emphasis on the use of adversives is doing the dog world a lot of harm. One good way of making dogs look like the aggressive badly behaved menaces the media would like them to be, is to continue to over empasise the use of adversives. I am waiting for the petition that couples the legality of some tools with a ban on groups who dare even in this day and age ban the use of tools such as toys and food on publically owned grounds. You see, when lay people see us train with toys and food, a lot of barriers get broken down. That will get my signature. Denis Cody

Tug of war is a great game to play with a dogs. There is a different warning here.. don't advocate this in public because you face a far chance of getting a fair bit of heat, as I have found out. As others have said, you do need rules, and you need to teach them. The biggest problem I find is actually getting a dog to play. I would take the over excited bit anytime.... I have found a lot of good suggestions with the more modern shutzhund trainers,(and leernt to appreciate the sport to). But what I do have is mini poodle with a very soft mouth and a root canal on one side so I made a toy to suit. It works extremely well. She will walk over a mile of broken glass for it , but I have to be careful not to over use it. It is imperative that she win. The end prey sequence is attack,bite, take prey. IMHO if drive is a valid way to also understand dog behaviour, then all of these steps are helpful to satisfying our dog's drive. I use this toy for recalls, sometimes.

I am so sorry:- I missed the context . :D I wouldn't worry too much about the odd whine etc either. My mini poodle does a bit of that . She gets pretty excited when i come home, but I just manage to wait for her to calm down before I take notice of her. I can't avoid my old Lab though. He is 14 1/2 has cancer and if he jumps up an down well it is a good day. Sometimes we get too carried away on leadership issues (they are important though) and just don't be delighted humans with dogs. I don't get carried away with the odd noise my poodle makes when i work her, and frankly in tracking it is a bit of a bonus . This way I at least know a little of what happening for her. She also grunts when I pick her up, does little cries when I ask her to do something that is conflicting (stay while there is a toy in front of her), and barks her head of when some one comes along and tries to steal the nature strip (well in her opinion). The difference is that she does the conflicting thing, and quitens when I tell her to do so. My opinion is that it is the whole picture that tells the story. :p

I never have this problem with my dogs ,for a very simple reason, if I am home then they are inside. If I want them to be quiet, they come and lie down next to me. This way their need to be part of the pack is satisfied, and the reason why i got them in the first place (companionship etc ) is also satisfied. Often dogs left outside have no idea why they are and get stressed beyond belief as it goes against an instinct or two that they may have (pack drive).

Good on you Lea. You also need to clean the ears!. I use something similar I got from the vet.

You have been given a lot of good ideas. I don't know pulis that well, and now finding out that food is a slighly indifferent reinforcer, I would be using the things that are stopping her to come in the first place. My dog is very prey /toy orientated My older dog is a breeze he is totally food obsessed. I first got a very rapid recall happening that was always rewarded in a non dog non people environment. I then added the recall lead for a while as we walked around the local parks When i asked her to come to me without distraction in the park, I made sure that she knew Christmas had arrived I then took her to dog club and set her up with boring dogs and rewarded her by toys, play and allowing her to return to them I then set her up with interesting dogs and sure enough i got a couple of failures. Here is where i did things very different. I went down the lead to her and got her to come back to where I had asked her to come by being quite business like and using her collar when we got back I said good girl but no reward.. We only reward what we want The next time she came back, I rewarded her heavily, and let her go back to what she had left. When she failed, I went down the lead got her to come back and timed her out for a couple of minutes I didn't get a lot more failures. She learnt that coming to me meant that she got what she wanted most of the time, and that not coming to me meant that she didn't get anything. After a whie, I took the recall lead off. I had a real heart stopper, (she went to run across the road) and I went to her and gave a verbal barrage. She is a sensitive soul and hasn't done it since. While I am a "posiitve" trainer, I have no compunctions about adding punishment (P+) in this circumstance.Note that she doesn't have her days filled with "ah ahs" and nos and stuff like that so a punishment like this is huge for her. There is lots to learn and many other ways of doing it. This method is very close to that suggested by Susan Garret . It comes with a warning ..It may not work with your dog and you may need help to get it to work. I used a completely different method which was very succesful for my Lab, but it just doesn't work for some other breeds.