corvus

I was writing about this just recently and got curious and tried to find some papers that described the effect of social competition on motivation. There wasn't much dog stuff and the one paper I found I couldn't access because it was from the 60s. But in other animals it would appear that social competition increases motivation but may decrease performance. But then, that makes sense seeing as increased motivation tends to increase the speed of performance, but decreases problem solving ability and accuracy. Although I think that's largely an arousal effect... With that in mind, I wonder if it's something that can be used judiciously in training specifically for increasing speed and arousal. It came up in my training because I asked one dog for a paw target and the other dog who was supposed to be waiting politely for his chance to train slapped his paw into my hand before the dog the cue was for could make a move. Some people use competition to increase things like recall speed by only rewarding the first one that gets there. I wouldn't do that in our family, though, because Erik is pretty much always going to beat poor Kivi and Kivi's the one that needs all the encouragement. I realise I pretty much killed the fun in the topic with that anal, science nerd account. So to make up for it, one time my previous dog was oggling the apple I was eating. I knew she didn't like apple that much and pointed this out to her, but she was adamant she wanted some. So I gave her a piece and she spat it out, as predicted. I threatened to give it to the hare and she pounced on it and devoured it like there was no tomorrow. I do train my low drive dog second because by the time I get to him he's all excited by the training after watching me do it with the other dog, and I do sometimes bring Erik out when Kivi's being finnicky about food. He usually eats it if Erik is around eyeing it off.

What do you mean by correcting the biting? I'm not sure if you mean you correct him and then he gets worse or you correct him when he gets worse. Just a suggestion a little out of left field, but I wonder if he's just SO aroused and excited by being around you that he gets over the top and forgets to inhibit himself. All puppies are pretty impulsive, but some seem to get fired up so easily and they'll bounce around and try a zillion different things between you saying one thing and the next. I had a puppy a little like that, although not as bad as yours, and one of the first things I did was teach him a rock solid sit. It was extremely helpful, but I soon moved to a rock solid down and I like that one better, now. I think that a default down is a good thing to have for a dog that gets easily excited. Being in a down is just a little bit inherently calming, I think. And it gives you a moment to decide what to do next. Have you done any self-control exercises with him? Or massage? Some puppies have to learn that they needn't be excited ALL the time, but they need a little help to realise that's possible.

Do you know how to teach a hip target? It might be possible to teach a top-of-paw target by the same method. With the hip target, you push the hip until the dog sways away from you, then release the pressure and click treat when the dog sways back into your hand. Perhaps if you held the leg up so the paw had no weight on it and then pushed the top towards the dog and then released the pressure and clicked when the paw comes back towards your hand? You might have to have your other hand behind the paw to stop it going back a long way. Or you could start close to as far back as the paw goes so there's more "spring-back". Assuming I have understood correctly what it is you want to do, that is.

Not all dogs have it in them to love free-shaping. My older boy gets very anxious about doing things he hasn't been rewarded for, despite the fact we did heaps of free-shaping when he was a puppy and I have never so much as scolded him in training. I started target training with him and he likes that much better. We have hip targets, paw targets and nose target down and are working on duration and two targets at once. I find that if I drop his reward rate even a little he starts whining and his performance spirals down and it's hard to recover in that session. He gets frustrated if he doesn't just instantly know what to do. Shaping for him has to be very easy and very small steps. His confidence is boosted by knowing what he has to do. If he knows it, he is happy. So training new things is hard because obviously he doesn't know it and doesn't love the learning process the way my other dog does. I would say first make sure your reward rate is as high as you can make it, the changes in criteria as small as you can make them, and your training sessions short. If he's still whining and you don't see much variation in the whining that can tell you when he's happy and when he's not, consider that maybe he's one of those dogs that just doesn't love it. Incidentally, my whiner is much more prone to it when he's excited. Sometimes I use that excitement level for lots of quick and easy repetitions and just throw in something marginally more difficult here and there.

Erik is exactly the same. He doesn't mind playing in the wet grass in the least, but he doesn't like to get his pawses wet when he's toileting! We did the leash thing as well. It was so much fun standing in the yard with an umbrella waiting him out. Took about 20 minutes, then he got treats when he went. It took about three days for him to catch on. We don't have any trouble with him weeing inside when it's wet anymore, but unfortunately he didn't generalise it to poos. Been trying to teach him a "number 2s" cue, but it's hard to catch him at it! The only time I know he's gonna go is first thing in the morning and OH always gets up first and lets him out. I'm not very good at getting into the habit of watching him when it's wet.

Thanks everyone, that's a big help.

Good luck, Dju. Remember that there are plenty of us here just a PM away if you are looking for some help.

I can't draw piccies on my laptop. Track pads are evil. If it makes it easier, you could just give me the circumference of the muzzle about 3cm back from the nose tip. I can work it out from that.

Doesn't matter if he's a mutt. I'm looking for the diameter close to the nose. The idea is they touch a panel with their nose and break a light beam in the process. The closer together we can put the light and the light detector, the stronger the signal, but at the same time I don't want to make it cramped for dogs with big noses. Charlie's nose is relatively little, but quite close to his face. Could you give me his head width, though?

I'm trying to figure out how far my LED and phototransistor need to be apart from one another to make a photointerruptor to suit a large range of dog noses. If you have a dog with a broad nose, I would love it you could measure how broad it is. I only know pointy-nosed dogs. I think my perception of how wide dog noses get is severely skewed. Just a rough estimate of the distance from one side of the snout to the other will do the job. A muzzle diameter rather than circumference, if that makes sense. Thank you!

The worst I've ever had was a cut and slightly squashed finger from stupidly playing tug with two dogs at once using a pocket tug. Even as I was doing it I was thinking "this isn't very bright". Worst animal-related injury I've had was a Squirrel Glider bite. Those things have teeth like chisels and have a talent for finding the finger that isn't protected by a glove. I got bitten by a bat once as well. It wasn't bad, but I did have to get rabies boosters. Mexico has some birds that leave blood blisters when they bite, I discovered. Cardinals hurt like buggery and those Blue Grossbeaks always got me because I was too busy being relieved it wasn't a Black-headed Grossbeak to watch what I was doing. I very nearly got slashed by a hawk one day, but luckily I apparently have the reflexes of a cat and got away with a graze. That's not a very impressive list of animal-related injuries, considering! I think the 200+ sandfly bites from Curtis Island field work was much worse than all of them combined. That had me on the brink of madness.

I think that's the problem! A bit scary when an armchair hobbyist apparently knows more about it than a professional.

Well, I for one would be surprised if behaviourist accreditation involved limiting the tools permissible to use. I would be surprised because the whole point of accreditation is to separate the wheat from the chaff, and I don't know any behaviourists no matter how strongly they promote positive methods that don't realise there is a time and place for punishments. At the APDT conference Ken Ramirez made a point of putting up Terry Ryan's toolbox and pointing out that it includes punishment. Ramirez is one of the best known positive trainers in the world and he was upfront about the fact that positive just means they try not to have to use punishments. It's up to the professional to decide where to draw that line, not a professional body IMO. The professional body just has a system whereby they can identify who has earned the right to call themselves professionals. Incidentally, people like Ramirez help trainers of different animals all over the world and he says differential reinforcement of an incompatible behaviour solves most problems. I do think that picking the right behaviour can mean the difference between success and failure, though.

I gave negative feedback to a trainer once and she blew her top and accused me of being cruel to my dogs. It was extremely unpleasant. I had been very polite about it and she still chewed my ear off for daring to be unhappy. Apparently she was the expert and I should not question her. Eventually I managed to piece her back together and she tearfully apologised and I quietly made sure I would never cross paths with her again. I don't think I'd ever bother again. I've given positive feedback, but I'll give my negative feedback with my feet.

Your degree even though it has little to do with dog behaviour gives you the means to approach dog behaviour scientifically. I remember when I took in that baby hare. I was in my 4th year of a zoology degree and doing an honours project in animal behaviour. I discovered that three years of tertiary education and a lifelong interest didn't mean a great deal practically. I still had to learn what being a hare was all about. However, because I did have the bulk of a zoology degree behind me, I had a good understanding of why a hare might behave the way he did and what might drive him. A lot of it was still guessing and even recently I got tripped up by him again for the longest time, but this time it was learning theory that got me out of trouble. Knowing stuff isn't the same as having experience, but I think it gives you an edge in the form of an organised, objective way to assess behaviour and decide what is the best bet for changing it. To me, there is nothing like having an organised approach to behaviour. It takes a lot of the guesswork out of it, and that is what I'd be looking for in a professional behaviourist. Incidentally, there is a world full of rubbish trainers, as well. I find it much easier to judge a behaviourist than a trainer. If they have some sort of organised approach to behavioural analysis, I'm listening. I have met very few trainers that know what the heck they are doing. They will act like they do and give you a reason why it works, but it's a reason they have plucked out of the air and convinced themselves is correct, and they don't see it when it's not working.

As far as trainers go, I agree, there are lots of talented trainers that might be just as good a year into their career than they would ever be with or without accreditation. But I like the idea for behaviourists, and I know why I'd want it if I were a behaviourist.

Erik was hard sometimes, too. He still has his moments, although thankfully much fewer of them. Erik flourishes under training. He loves it so much he comes asking for it. He learns everything so easily he is addictive to train. The point of socialisation is to show them what their world is made up of. It has trees, rocks, footpaths, other houses, strange dogs, strange people, kids, cars, scooters, trucks, running people, cats, birds, kids on skateboards, dogs on leash, people in boats, dogs playing with one another, children screaming, adults singing, people in wheelchairs, umbrellas, big coats, strange hats, vets, training grounds, big dogs, small dogs, other puppies, dogs that don't like puppies, dogs that do like puppies, shiny boots, high heels that click, bags that jingle, automatic doors on storefronts, fans, heaters, nail clippers, brushes, baths, blow dryers, dogs yelping and barking, edible bones, non-edible bones, toys that squeak, toys that roll... Get the picture? What is Hugo going to encounter in his life? Whatever he is going to encounter later on, he should be exposed to now and learn whether he should like it, dislike it, or ignore it. What he learns to feel towards it is up to you. If you want him to like it, reward him when he's around it. If you want him to ignore it, expose him to it until he is desensitised and no longer pays attention to it. Best not to encourage him to dislike things. Baby steps for everything. Watch him for signs of how he is taking it. Are his ears forward? That means he's interested. Are his ears turned out to the side or laying down on his head? That means he's worried.

I'm glad to hear you are going to get stuck into his training and socialisation. They are such clever dogs. Having Erik around is like having a gifted toddler in the house. He can't just be left to his own devices. He gets bored and wants to play and learn and interact. It is hard work sometimes, but so much fun, and when you put the work in they repay you tenfold.

I saw a pink and white striped one at the APDT conference. They were offering it at a discount as it was a display model. I said I didn't think my boy would be into the pink. Gretal, Kivi used to get carsick and we found some TTouch helped him calm, which in turn helped his carsickness. He had got to the point where he dreaded the car and wouldn't get in on his own. We also gave him a soft bed with sides to minimise him sliding around. When we gave him the bed and started a few minutes of TTouch each time before he travelled, that was the end of the carsickness. He's never thrown up in the car since and these days actually sits up and watches out the window. It took him about 18 months to realise there was stuff going on outside the car. He used to just curl up in his bed and stay low. So my roundabout answer is I would guess it depends on how Vienna feels about the car. If she gets anxious it probably doesn't help her poor tummy and a Thundershirt might help her. Who knows? I do think the bed was important for Kivi. A few times we took it away and he got all morose and started looking green around the gills. He now has a quilted backseat hammock and doesn't need the bed.

Dju, I don't show, either, and when I got Erik I didn't know anyone who could visit with their dogs. Just get out there with him and show him the world. Please.

It doesn't matter what the breeder did or didn't say. I never heard her say anything one way or another, so I'm not gonna say she said one thing or another. What matters is Hugo needs some help now. It makes me nervous as hell to hear Dju's account of his behaviour around other puppies. I know what Erik was like at that age, and I took socialisation very seriously because I felt it was warranted. You can tell now what I didn't socialise him to early. I think if anything I didn't do enough. I would hate for Dju to think that some time down the track. They are very clever, switched on dogs. Erik learns in three repetitions at a maximum. You can't afford to take that lightly and let them learn what they will IMO. Take an active hand, and the sooner you get into the habit of doing it, the better. ETA You can walk, can't you, Dju? Just walk around with Hugo. Sit on the footpath. Go watch a park. Sit outside your house and watch the world go by. Do whatever you are able or my bet is you will sorely wish you had sometime down the track.

In addition, Valls can start out on the cautious side. They grow into wonderfully confident dogs, but they often need a bit of support to begin with on that journey. The first week I had Erik we did a fair bit of sitting around watching the world go by. He was in my arms and never touched the ground. He got lots of treats and just watched. If I had my time again I'd do more of that. If Huski and I can be in complete unequivocal agreement on this, it's pretty much like David Stratton and Margaret Pomeranz giving the same movie 5 stars. If Hugo is anything like Erik was I would just let him watch dogs from a distance he is comfortable with for now. It took Erik three weeks of puppy school to start playing a little with the other dogs, and another 6 months of regular exposure to other dogs at his own pace before he really started to enjoy meeting strange dogs, although that was mostly because he had a doting big Lapphund brother that was much more fun to play with. I don't know if socialising early is as important as I believe it is, although research would suggest it is. However, it doesn't really matter anymore. Hugo is past that stage and so Dju will have to work with what she has. I think the rules stay the same, though. Hugo must have as many positive experiences with things Dju wishes him to be comfortable around as possible. I would urge Dju to get Hugo out there everyday and make a concerted effort to work him through his fears asap. The sooner this is done the better for everyone.

:rolleyes: We all told you to get out there and socialise him. It is SO important with this breed! Please do it, for his sake. Once again, if he's making a fuss, he is TOO CLOSE. Take him far enough away so that he is able to take treats and become calm, then one step closer and treats until he is calm, then another step closer and treats until he is calm and so on. If you can't get far enough away at puppy preschool that he will settle within ten minutes, then take him outside where he can't even see the other puppies. It is not fair to put him in a situation he can't handle and then force him to stay there until he realises there will never be a way to handle it and goes still. He has to learn that these things he is scared of are safe and be given the chance to explore them WHEN HE IS READY. Not before. Trust me, I have seen the fallout when a puppy has been forced into socialising. It was horrible and he never got any better. It was also a Vallhund cross, so for the love of god, please take this seriously. Whether Hugo has it in him to go the way this puppy did or not, just don't set him up to find out. Promise me you'll take him out every day this week and let him just quietly watch some dogs from a safe distance where they can't run up to him. Preferably with a bag full of treats you can pop him every few seconds. It is not enough to just love him. He needs your guidance and help. If you continue to push him into things he can't handle he will learn the world is full of monsters and won't want anything to do with it. He will be scared whenever he's outside his yard. You don't want that for him.

It was kind of a rhetorical question. :rolleyes: Measuring distance a dog can cope with before showing signs of mild distress is a good start in my view. I think it's fair to expect people difficulties in any consulting job, indeed, any client-driven industry. Even in the government it was like that. I'm under no illusions that I could ever escape it, even by going into academia like I want to. The best I think I can hope for is to occasionally make a difference and enjoy the work.

Do you know for certain it improved? Was it measured? I'm not doubting you, as I think confidence can have a huge effect on behaviour, but do you see what I'm getting at? You are telling me your interpretation of a situation you saw. I don't know what you expected to see, but chances are you saw what you expected to see. I guess it's a confirmation bias. Unless there is something that is objectively measurable, we can't really be sure that something helped, even if someone we know is smart and sensible about dogs says it helped. I guess that there are always people that are only interested in the quick fix. We used to run into this all the time in environmental consulting. Companies would go with a cheap and dirty proposal even though they would be warned that they wouldn't get away with it and it would end up costing them more when they were instructed to do it again, or when the company they had hired added about a dozen variations they knew they would need from the start to avoid being told to do it again. Luckily, not everyone was like that or there would be no good environmental consulting businesses. Wait... what am I saying? There's a reason why I got out of that industry! Suffice to say there would be no better consulting businesses... The better ones often get work when someone uses one of the shoddy ones and gets told they'll have to redo it with a little extra. Maybe the same goes for behaviourists?