corvus

I've jogged with my dogs in Ruffwear Webmaster harnesses. They are pricey, but almost impossible to get out of and once you live with a handle on the back of your dog you'll wonder how you ever survived without it. They have a high cut around the shoulders to allow for full movement. Me and Kivi accidentally strung ourselves up on signposts twice during jogs. I was very glad Kivi had a full harness on rather than a collar or one of those strap harnesses that tend to go over the head if a dog pulls backwards hard enough. Wish I'd had something like that on, too.

Erik's been noisy this afternoon and difficult to settle. I put his TS on about ten minutes ago and he's now napping on his bed beside me. Finally. Funniest thing, I have noticed that often if it's going to do the job, it tends to prompt nesting behaviour for want of a better description. He finds something soft, kicks it around until he's got himself a little imaginary hollow, then lies down to sleep in it. I hardly ever see that nesting behaviour any other time, but it seems common with the TS. I would love to know what it's doing to his brain chemistry.

Aw, thanks KtB. Nice to know I'm sometimes appreciated. Why would you fork out over $5000 in course fees if you didn't want to use Karen Pryor's name in your marketing of yourself in some way? She and her trainers are good, but I thought we'd already established that you're not just paying for the tuition. You're paying for the right to use her name, which has some 20 years or so of marketing behind it and is already associated with a high standard. That doesn't come for free, and why should it? The way I see it, this course is aimed squarely at people who are already professional trainers and already committed to positive methods, particularly clicker training. Folks that are looking to go into more advanced clicker training and wouldn't even blink at the thought of signing something pertaining to methods because they already stick to positive methods. It's a way for them to advance their training and buy into a strong marketing force while they're at it. It is not aimed at people that just want to advance their positive training skills and knowledge in addition to the other methods in their toolbox. There are other, cheaper ways of doing that. I think I'm going to bow out. I'm getting dizzy!

It just seemed like a circular and pointless discussion. You don't like the limitations or the cost and you think it's a shame. I said so don't do it, there are other ways to gain those skills without the limitations. You came back and from what I could gather, repeated yourself. Okay.... Why? That's my point. Did I miss something? I'm not being defensive as I have nothing to be defensive about. I'm not going to do the course. Karen Pryor doesn't pay me. I haven't thrown every inch of my support behind her and I don't have a vested interest in anyone taking the course. I do like to have meaningful discussions, though. I'm quite happy to have a meaningful discussion about the limitations of the Karen Pryor Academy, but I thought we'd already done that. I repeated myself assuming you hadn't taken in what I said before and then you tell me you've already said that. Yes, I know, so what have I missed? It felt like it could go on forever! Believe it or not, I'm just trying to communicate with you. ;) I'm not doing a very good job. Even asking a direct question got misinterpreted as defensiveness! So, let's start again. I hear that you don't like the limitations, you think it's costly, and it's a shame because you like to learn new skills. I think that's fine and dandy. You don't have to do it and there are other courses that will teach you the same sorts of things without the limitations. Bob Bailey's chicken camps, for instance. They are still expensive because they are overseas, but you can learn the skills KPA might teach you without KPA. Anything to add?

Impulsivity could be a character trait judging by what I've read. Erik has had loads of self-control training that started within days of getting him. It seemed necessary. He would erupt with frenetic activity whenever he wanted something. I am constantly working on his impulse control. He can sit and watch his food bowl for a minute while you walk into other rooms and still wait for his cue to eat, and he can hold a down in front of an open door he desperately wants to go through waiting for the release, but every now and then he'll break. It might take 30 trials, but he'll do it sooner or later. I've had him suddenly leap up and snatch a treat from my hand before I've even asked for him to do something despite months of successfully having him hold a sit while I wave it in front of his nose before giving it to him. It took us ages to get his sit-stays reliable enough to start adding release cues from a distance, and even now I want them more reliable and have gone back to working on it. I think the self-control training was one of the best things I did with Erik. I wonder what he'd be like without it??

Are you sure? I don't even know what those prohibitive blanket conditions are. At any rate, I wouldn't do it if I wanted to be a behaviourist. I'd do a PhD or masters in dog behaviour or psychology. So do so. Like I said, it's not the only place to learn advanced clicker training. You can learn it from the same person that's teaching it here without the strings attached if you want. The APDT conference was excellent for advanced positive training theory. Steve White even got us doing some practical exercises. You told me you weren't allowed to go. I told you you were allowed to go. You didn't go. Okay. What's your point? You'd be stupid to do it if you didn't agree with the ideals in the first place, yeah?

I was reading a paper on manic behaviour once. It was about humans, but it described a scenario in which someone could have an overly sensitive reward system. They are super reactive and oriented to positive stimuli and get very frustrated with barriers to goal attainment. I said to my OH "I know this is human psychology, but doesn't that sound like Erik?" He went "Oh yes. That's him all right." I've wondered ever since if a dog can have an over-sensitive reward system. Erik's response to rewards is like nothing I've ever seen. He's a maniac! Just the process or possibility of earning them gets him excited. I can keep it as low key as possible and he still gets this intensity to him as he waits for an opportunity to earn a reward. He seems incapable of calmly accepting a reward. It will look calm, but there'll still be a glitter in his eye. Sometimes I reward him for sleepy eyes and tail down. I'm never quite sure I'm not also rewarding being a coiled spring waiting for the next reward. I don't entirely trust the soft eyes. That tail springs up so fast! Anyway, just a vague wondering. Do you think a dog can have an over-sensitive reward system? Do you have a reinforcement junkie?

I don't think she is trying to produce behavioural consultants. I think she is trying to produce trainers. My understanding is they teach how to handle common, minor behavioural problems. It takes more than a 6 month training course to learn how to be a behaviourist.

I don't know what people expect from dog parks. We went this morning and our dogs had fun. Yesterday morning they got rushed by a dog with issues.... and still had fun.

Thanks for the correction. That may be so, but it doesn't help me as someone who might think that by going to a Delta trainer I would be getting the latest best practice positive methods.

Disagree with whom? Personally, I don't have much use for punishing tools and little interest in learning about them, but I do have an interest in learning about what constitutes good use of punishments. Sometimes I find I want to use them. But it's important to me that I don't screw up all the good work I've done with rewards in the process, so I want to go into it with as much information as I can. The more I learn about positive training the less I find I want or need to use anything else, but that's not to say never.

My first dog was a Pembroke Corgi. She was the perfect first dog. Couldn't mess her up if you tried. And I did try, unknowingly. I have a Finnish Lapphund who is also crazy easy, but his coat is not. And he still has his spitz moments where he just goes "Hmm... No." We worked hard to get him reliable off leash, whereas the corgi was naturally good off leash.

There appears to be a link between noise phobias and separation anxiety that suggests a general anxiety disorder. I say appears, though, because the numbers aren't big. It's not gonna be every dog that has one has the general anxiety disorder, though. Hmmm, that one's getting into the realms of high speculation. There are aspects of dog personality associated with good performance including trainability and sociability and interest in playing with humans that appear to be under the influence of boldness in dogs. So it might be that breeding for biddability tends to produce bolder dogs, however, there's lots of other stuff in there that might mess it up. For example, I have a Swedish Vallhund and these dogs tends to be brimming with confidence and are usually very bold. They were bred to herd cattle. I figure it's probably necessary to be a bold dog if you're 13kg and nipping at the heels of a 500kg cow. But they also have a funny startle response. They duck at unexpected noise or movement, making it look like they are quite shy. But, you know, when a cow kicks you duck or you get kicked in the head. That makes sense, but what I can't understand is why Vallhunds tend to be extremely touch sensitive. My Vall goes weak at the knees if you brush him. It's ecstasy. My point is, maybe we breed for boldness, but also breed for conflicting traits, and somehow end up with quirks that we didn't breed for at all. We don't know enough to say much about it. However, if it's a dog with a passive coping style, maybe it's not always obvious whether they are distressed or not. One of my dogs is naturally very calm. Recently we had four thunderstorms in a row go straight over our heads. He was unsettled by this, but the extent of his communication of his unsettlement was to come and lie down next to me. He's not obvious about it. It seems likely you could have a dog with high stress reactivity but quite bold, and a dog with low stress reactivity that is shy. And vice versa. Are you kidding?? Sounds like a great topic!

I do, but IME it doesn't mean much. I was talking to some Delta trainers recently about my experiences with Delta trainers and they were complaining that there's no ongoing requirement to keep up to date with the latest Delta is teaching. No one ever checks up on them. They get their certificate and that's that. It's not good for them to have people out there doing a shoddy job under their banner, but given they don't do anything to stop it they can't complain. Suffice to say I don't trust the name Delta. I don't know that KPA would be any different, but they talk about ongoing support and they don't even let you into the course unless you have a few professional references. I don't know what happens with NDTF and haven't had any experiences with NDTF trainers to comment. Recognised by who? It's a no-brainer, really. If you would feel limited by the requirements you wouldn't undertake the training in the first place. Not that I'm entirely sure what those requirements would be - Karen Pryor is not exactly a one trick pony. There are other places to learn advanced clicker training. If you want the best, you can go do chicken camp or something (with Terry Ryan, if you want!) and just add it to your CV with no strings attached as far as I know. From what I can gather, most people that are very good at positive methods don't often feel like they need to use anything else. It's not like they have to. They attract customers that want the positive approach and either they can use it or they can't. There are some amazing trainers out there that achieve just about anything with positive methods. The recent APDT conference was pretty inspiring. The level of detail, creativity and pure achievement from these trainers is phenomenal. It's not a franchise as there is no revenue sharing, but you would get the benefit of Karen Pryor's effective marketing. She's been going strong for ages and is only getting stronger. I've had enough plugging this. I don't really want to! I just thought it was cool that it was available here. I'm a wee bit cynical about Karen Pryor, but I can't help admiring her. She is very savvy! And she has done so much for animal training on a global scale.

I think the differences are in the stress reactivity of the dog. For example, if one of my dogs has a higher stress reactivity than the other, I might see much more aroused behaviour when that dog is worried about something compared to the dog with low stress reactivity. Another possible factor is how bold or shy the dog is. Bold animals tend to have active coping strategies, so just sitting around being anxious doesn't work for them. They want to do something, fight or flight. Shyer animals tend to have passive coping styles and prone to freezing or just not acting in a stressful situation until they have to. This is thought to be at least partially inherited, but may also be affected by the individual animal's past experiences. Noise phobia is considered a possible symptom of general pathological anxiety in dogs.

We have veto rights in this house. Everyone has the right to put their foot down if it's something that really matters to them. It works well because we don't use it very often. Sometimes something isn't vetoed, but so strongly discouraged that the other backs down anyway. A few years ago I got a stern talking to by some workmates for declining to go on a field trip to look for marsupial moles amongst other things because the OH didn't want me to go. The fact was, he was caught up with work and couldn't come with me and very much wanted to. He was honest and said I could go, but it would make him very disappointed that he would miss out. In some relationships it wouldn't be a big deal, but it is in ours. Dynamics are always different and we do practically everything together. My workmates couldn't understand why I was letting him push me around, but I wasn't. I was just listening to him, which is what people do for loved ones. Anyway, he adores the dogs and it warms my heart. He was resistant about getting the first one, worried about the commitment, but now they are like his kids. Right now he's telling Erik that he brings joy into his life and makes him happy. Awwww. I grew up in a house where my dad always fought my mum on any animal-related purchase and didn't even know how to feed them. I love that my OH shares their care with me. I do the grooming and training, but we take turns feeding and we walk them together. He pays most of the vet bills and I buy food and medication. He has even taught them a few tricks.

I imagine they do that because they have a standard to uphold. Karen Pryor DOES have her name at stake. You get a trainer that's been through KPA, you don't expect them to whip out the e-collar. You expect them to be able to do the job with a marker and rewards, and do it well. Karen Pryor is a smart businesswoman and seems to appreciate the power of a good name. She keeps her good name by only attaching it to things of a high standard that align with what she's all about (let's ignore my Karen Pryor extendable target stick that lasted about 2 weeks, though). If I were looking for a trainer and chose one on the basis of the fact they had been trained through KPA, my trust in Karen Pryor's name would be shattered if the trainer used force or punishments. Who cares if they are needed? I made a choice based on what I expect, and what I expect has been moulded by every product attached to Karen Pryor's name I have ever used. It's her own marketing that has created that expectation. She'd be mad not to protect it. Incidentally, OMG, Terry Ryan!! I think it's fair to pay a premium for tuition from world-renown trainers. I'd consider it if it I wanted to be a trainer. AFAIK you just can't get that kind of tuition here in Australia through anyone else. ETA I'm in the middle of a PhD. I'm not doing it! I also think it's very pricey. If I wanted to be a trainer, though, I would really think about it hard. The alternative if you want the advanced positive methods is to go overseas. That would be more expensive, I'm guessing. Or do it by correspondence, but I think it's not the same as having someone there to help you with the practical stuff. Or you could just take advantage of Australia's sorry lack of accreditation and not do any courses.

What about snowballs?

Oh boy, playground fight! Let's throw food!

I just stumbled across this document and thought it was relevant enough to the recent discussion to resurrect the thread. http://www.pupi.com.au/downloads/Web%20PDF%20AB.pdf

Dogs are hilarious. ;) Every now and then Erik decides he's not coming into the backyard with us and is going to stay out the front and explore. We shrug and walk through the gate and shut it behind us.... and count to 5, because that's the longest it takes for him to cave and start banging on the gate to be let in. He just cannot stand not knowing what we're all doing! It could be something awesome!

Cool, KPA training available in Australia next year. http://www.karenpryoracademy.com/taxonomy/term/49

I had a "no dogs on the furniture unless invited" rule. Due to OH, it has slipped to a"no dogs in bed with us before the alarm goes off" rule. Although that has slipped to a "no dogs in bed with us before the first time OH gets up" rule. And due to Kivi being a sneaky cuddle bear, it has slipped again to a "no dogs in bed with us before the first time OH gets up unless they can do it without waking Corvus up" rule. I have woken up several times with Kivi spooned snuggly against me, his head on my shoulder and my other arm wrapped around him with no recollection of how he got there. OH claimed he had no idea either. I am suspicious about it. I think Kivi won that round however he did it. He is too nice to wake up snuggling. So basically the dogs get to be wherever they want. Neither of us minds about the mess so much, except I'm more fussy about dirt in my bed. So the dogs being banned from sleeping in bed with us is still mostly in place despite repeated incursions.

This morning a dog charged us, teeth bared and snarling ferociously. Scared the bejesus out of me. Charges in the past have taught me to view them with near panic. I was betting on about a 70% likelihood of the dog pulling up before it got to us because I'd seen this dog a couple of times and didn't think he'd engage, and lucky for us he did pull up a good ten metres short. Point is, I was in an off leash dog park. I tend to expect this kind of thing, even though it rarely happens. The owner of this dog has been doing heaps of work with him and trying to address the issue, but people make bad judgement calls sometimes. No harm done. It scared me a little, but I learnt what a charging bluff looks like, and the boys took it in their stride and were over it in about 5 seconds. That's 'cause they have been so heavily socialised that they've seen a lot and they read other dogs really well. It takes more than a noisy bluff to scare them. If your dog is potentially going to be a guide dog, maybe you should use these events as a training opportunity. I do. The world doesn't stop when a dog is mean or scary to my dogs. I encourage them to get on with it immediately. They don't generally have difficulties with this, even Erik, who is a wee bit high strung and easily unsettled. I practice tolerance in dog parks because everyone is coming from a different place with different standards and approaches to dog ownership. Mostly they don't think they are doing anything wrong and won't believe you if you tell them they are. They'll just get haughty and go and tell their friends about the crazy dog lady that yelled at them for doing something perfectly reasonable. At worst, you've made an enemy that may well do things to spite you, to the detriment of your dog. The majority of the dog-owning public is not very good with their dogs, and probably never will be, but I'd rather that didn't exclude their dogs (or mine) from having fun running off leash. I am good with my dogs, and I can compensate for them, so I do and everyone gets along.

We have a Forester, but don't transport crates. Just have the dogs on the back seat hammock with their seatbelts on. We can put them in the boot if they are particularly repulsive or if we're taking extra passengers. We like the Forester a lot. It's roomy for our needs, but there's only two of us and two dogs. We recently took it up through the centre and it did well on the dirt roads. It's not technically a 4wd, but we're not off-roaders, so why have one? I used to drive Hilux and Rodeo dual cabs with canopies and they are awesome work horses and if I were buying an off-roader they would be high on the list. They are just unstoppable, serious vehicles. Not fun in the city, though. I never found them easy to park in parking lots. The Forester suits us well because we often take unsealed roads, but also often drive around town with it. We don't need a real 4wd, and the centre of gravity thing makes me uneasy. I don't like the new Foresters. They are too tall!