corvus

I've been doing this with Erik lately after stuffing up his tugging accidentally. I couldn't speak more highly of it. Our problem was he couldn't switch between tug and food very well, and was losing interest in tugging in training scenarios. In 5 minutes of clicking and treating for him pulling the tug out of my hands he was giving it some nice head bangs and hasn't looked back. It amazed me how quickly he picked up fluency in reward shifts using this method. I'd been trying for months to achieve what I did in 5 minutes! Duh.

Ask Aidan. If I ever got to the point where I thought I knew it all in animal behaviour I would probably commit suicide. The whole reason why I love it so much is that it's never as simple as just being logical. There are always surprises and new patterns to discover and new behaviours to try to puzzle out. It is very rich and rewarding, I think. You learn a lot of theory, and then an animal does something thoroughly incomprehensible and it just fills me with wonder. Isn't it amazing that you can learn and learn and learn and still be thrown on a regular basis by animals just doing what they do? I know for myself at least, I have come so far in the 9 years since I started my zoology degree, and still have so far to go. It gets a tiny bit harder to find new information, but it's more knowing where to start than that there's a limited amount available. I did think hard about going back to uni for more formal studies, and wondered if it was worth the hassle, so I can understand not wanting to. But anyone who says they wouldn't learn anything from it are deluding themselves, I think. I don't think anyone is saying that, though. I think you make of your studies what you want. It is possible to do a degree and get nothing much out of it.

Does it? If the dog never practices the behaviour, does it exist? My dogs don't chase my rabbit because they are never given the opportunity to do it. There are physical barriers that prevent it. I don't even know if they would chase my rabbit because I've never tested them, but I'm guessing they would. To me, this fix is as permanent as those barriers. How permanent is a training tool? My guess is it varies with the effectiveness of the tool for that particular dog. I know dogs that have been on the one training tool for LLW all their lives and still LLW. Looks pretty permanent to me. If they keep pulling all their lives then the aversive is obviously not strong enough to call a punishment, even. In which case, I doubt very much it causes them much pain. Obviously if they are still pulling with the tool it's not working and the owners ought to try something else. I'm not arguing that tools used incorrectly don't cause troubles. I'm arguing that tools used correctly solve troubles, and that can be a permanent management solution. I have no problem with permanent management solutions assuming they are effective and don't cause more welfare concerns than they solve. To me, a dog confined to its yard because it can't be walked is a massive welfare concern. There being better options doesn't enter into it, because you can't force someone to use an option you think is better. If they aren't going to train they aren't going to train, whether they have to in order to get the dog out of the yard or not. They just won't take the dog out of the yard. So I say bring on the training tools and turn them into management tools if that's what gets the dog walked. I was sympathetic to the trainer that wanted to put Kivi in a no-pull harness when he was a gentle little non-pulling puppy. Clearly most people are not very good at training LLW. To me she was being realistic by just starting the puppies on them so they never learnt to pull in the first place. Just wish she hadn't taken my polite refusal to use one as a personal slight. Edited to make shorter.

A leash is a tool. Honestly, it's not a band-aid if it's essentially a permanent fix, is it? These people don't really have circumstances where they can't use a head collar, no-pull harness, check chain or whatever. Their problem is fixed as long as they walk that dog on whatever tool enables them to walk them without having excessive pulling, and if they only ever walk them on that tool, then it's permanently fixed. "Ideal" is the dog gets walked as far as I'm concerned. Presumably it's learnt to walk nicely when wearing that tool. Why does it have to be taught anything else if the owners are never going to want to do anything else? Well, it's what can happen. I haven't seen it happen, or had anyone tell me it's happened. I'm guessing if it does the dog is no worse off than if a tool was never used in the first place. Hopefully all that walking around together has made the owners a little more attached to their dog and more motivated to put the work in to actually fix the problem properly. We can dream. Personally, I like my dogs to be under voice control as much as possible and leashes to be there when we can't afford them to not notice a verbal cue. That is the way I do things, but other people just want to walk their dogs without being towed along behind them. I have no issue with them using whatever tool they find works to achieve that. I would rather see a dog squinting as he walks around the block because the head collar is an awful fit than, say, sitting in a yard so bored out of his brain that he develops some weird behavioural problems. In the end it is none of my business, but a dog out and about is a dog that's getting ongoing socialisation and stimulation which is IMO the single most useful thing you can do to guard against behavioural problems after actually training your dog in the first place. Hell, maybe it's even more useful than training. Who cares if their dogs aren't trained to walk on a loose leash? Not me.

That's why I went to harnesses. My dog wasn't DA, but the dog next door we had to walk past a lot was and he'd come at her and she would freeze. I had to physically pull her out of his way once. She was on a check chain at the time. She didn't need a check chain, it was just the done thing back then to walk your dog on one. I quit on check chains after that and a few years later when she started getting arthritic I found a harness to lift her up with and have never looked back. I like the fact that if my dog does something stupid like jumping off a small cliff, or running on the wrong side of a signpost, most of their weight goes onto their chest rather than their neck.

Never mind.

As long as I have people PMing me for advice I must make sense to someone. Something that a lot of people don't seem to realise is how often someone with an advanced degree has to explain what they are doing to people that haven't even a basic background in the topic. I lost count of the number of times I had explained my project to people that know nothing about cognition, learning theory, dogs, affective state, or animal behaviour sometime about a month before I started the PhD. I don't know why everyone else participates in online forums, but for me it's mostly academic. Exchanging ideas with people that share your interests. I know who I'm talking to when I start sounding like a text book. But do you know why people who PM me do? Because they say I sound like I know what I'm talking about and they are too scared to ask the forum in general. There's a balance in everything, obviously, and different things are important to different people. Do I have a need to help people that are more impressed by someone whose signature says they are a professional trainer than someone who sometimes talks theory? No. The pros are welcome to them. But if someone likes to hear the theory and asks me for it, I'm more than happy to try to explain it. It's not so different to choosing trainers or behaviourists, I guess. I find trainers that know the theory avoid talking about it, but if I draw it out of them they get really excited. I will always be comforted by someone I can talk theory with. It makes me think I'm in good hands. They know at least as much as I do! The APDT conference had several trainers that knew the theory intimitately and talked a lot about effective ways to apply it. There's a reason why they are at the top of their field.

OH was telling me about a visual effects one in which the demand was for a photorealistic liquid stallion. I liked the shelter humour one.

Me either. I don't think it is a shame that people are taught to train LLW with tools. I think the alternative didn't work very well and I'm just glad people have options that at least get their dogs out there being walked. I don't think it's a big deal if a dog never learns to walk on leash without those tools. Who cares? If that's what those people find acceptable and they are walking their dogs, just, who freaking cares? When are those tools not going to be available? I think it's kind of hypocritical to grump about people relying on tools. What's a flat collar and leash?

Well, you'd think it's not that hard, but evidence is to the contrary. I do not walk my dogs on a plain old collar. They go out in harnesses. I believe it is safer. I don't like my only point of contact for my dogs to be their neck. Plus I love the handle on the Ruff Wear harnesses. It is incredibly handy! The person running Kivi's puppy school tried to insist Kivi be taught to walk on a no-pull harness. I refused because Kivi did not need it. I had his LLW training in hand and he wasn't a natural puller. I could appreciate how important it is to get dogs out walking one way or another.

*punches the air* You know that dopamine rush when the piece of the pattern you were half-expecting to appear next suddenly does?? Yessss!

My problem is I wasn't asking for a behaviourist with degrees. I was asking for a professional that I could recommend to my friend. If I intended to only recommend people with degrees to my friend I never would have asked here. I am protesting to the assumption that a) I need to be happy with someone I recommend to my friend and b) I am only happy if someone has enough degrees. Regardless of whether that was the message you were aiming for or not, that is one way to interpret it. I let things go and pretty soon apparently I'm someone I'm not. I'm not attacking you, I just feel offended and want to make it clear. It's not like that. I just want someone who can actually help my friend. I'm worried we only get one shot. What kind of person would I be if I didn't pass on the names of people that might be able to help because of some ridiculously high standards I supposedly have? I don't like the implications. As far as I know a dog's life is at stake and I really just care about giving it the best shot at making it. It's very upsetting, but I guess it happens everyday. Anyway, as I said, I did suggest Joanne, along with some other people. Heard her talk at the NDTF conference, and had her recommended by people in the know as well. By all accounts she is worth it. Sorry, angry hat off, now.

Kirrawee? If so, best description ever. LOL Can't stand it. Yes. :D I don't know if it's a fenced park thing or just that one, but man, every time I've been there it's had dogs behaving weirdly and everyone sits at the tables in the middle and lets their dogs follow my guys around being strange and vaguely, incomprehensibly threatening. Stopped going after the second or third time. I just don't see that at the unfenced places. It's really unusual to be followed. I agree, Robbi. Some dogs are just not really suited to dog parks. Unfortunately, I think you've got to expect to be rushed. I feel bad sometimes when people bring dogs into the park that find it stressful. I can keep my boys away from them, but it's a drop in the ocean. We've had dogs refuse to walk past us before. You've got to wonder what happens to those poor dogs on a daily basis. Sometimes we have to give them a good 10m before they'll scoot past us, even when we put ours on leash just to make sure they won't bother them. People with these dogs never seem to realise they are terrified. They say to us "Oh, don't worry, she's a scaredy-cat." It's not necessarily a character trait, you know. Forcing the dog through this gauntlet of overly friendly dogs everyday isn't helping. And I am worried! If I let my dogs intimidate these little guys like the owners seem to think is appropriate, what would I be helping to create? I'm mindful of contributing to problems, whether the owner recognises them or not. At least I can give the little dogs one enconter in which they didn't need to growl or snap or run around barking hysterically. The worst is the people that bring dogs to the park that don't like other dogs, then hit them whenever they growl. Then if my dog is the one that got growled at, the owners apologise to me! I try to tell them I'm very sorry for letting my dog scare their dog and they are incredulous and argue with me about it. I just feel like crying sometimes. Kind of puts friendly rushes in perspective.

I was just going to let that one go, but you know what, it is an unfair comment and I don't know if you realise that. Honestly, I find it quite rude to not only ignore something I have repeatedly stated ABOUT MYSELF, but to persist in misrepresenting my thoughts on it. : Now you know how annoyed it makes me I'll know next time you do it you're trying to aggravate me. If I was most concerned about degrees I would not have asked here at all, would I? There is no shortage of animal behaviourists with advanced degrees in my life.

If we get a third, which will probably be after the bunnies are no longer with us, it'll be a girl no matter what the breed. With E's temperament our choices will be much more carefully considered than for the last two. ;) Kivi would get along with anything, but Erik is a bit... Erik. I will. Back on topic, honestly I see a lot of dogs in dog parks that don't really enjoy it. It's very sad. Mine love it, and Erik enjoyed it even when he didn't really like to mix with other dogs. My previous dog enjoyed it even when she was old and sore and didn't want strange dogs bouncing around her. She'd give them the look and they'd avoid her. I find beaches and really big parks make a big difference. It's usually not hard to get away from other dogs. I've been in our local park when there's been over 20 dogs there, several games of fetch and there's still room to avoid the lot if you want. The way that park is set up it's very long so the dogs get walked up and down the park as they play. It means pestering is rare as the dogs are keeping tabs on their people. It's not fenced either, so dogs kinda have to come when they are called to be safe. It's not foolproof, but we rarely have any troubles there or on the beach. We have a local fenced park we avoid, but it does have three fenced sections and usually all the dogs are in one being bratty and weird together. I like the idea that if we did ever have to use it if we had a dog not trustworthy off leash, we could find a time when we could be reasonably confident to have one of the sections to ourselves. I find walking on the streets nerve-wracking. Too many territorial dogs. We aren't fond of being verbally abused by dogs, and you never know when one is going to be on the wrong side of the fence.

That must be because NDTF is based in Melbourne. I've done all I can. I gave her a list of people that I think are worth trying. Still haven't heard back from her. I imagine that is bad news for the little dog one way or another.

Oh, that's just code for the Legion of the Purely Positive. I think they want to take over the world or something.

I've often thought about this. I've been lucky with my two, but next breed I get will perhaps be a Basenji. They are not known for tolerance of strange dogs. Basically, I won't be getting one until I have a yard big enough to give it the room to stretch its legs in case that turns out to be the only place it can do it and feel safe. Someone used to bring a Chow to our dog park. I don't know why, really. She wasn't interested in the other dogs, she didn't ever break out of a walk, and she'd get peeved if a strange person tried to pat her. We have plenty of places around here you can take a dog for a nice on leash walk for exercise and a change in scenery.

I'll be sure to speak liberally in text book phrases once I've finished my PhD. 'Cause you know, that's what you do when you're edumacated.

I appreciate the predicament. Unfortunately there's nothing much that can be done. You can report every dog that rushes up to yours, but my guess is it won't do you a lot of good in the long run. I am always wary of making enemies.

I think in general it is a good idea to get a vet behaviourist for separation anxiety cases, because it is quite complicated and can have different causes requiring different treatments. Sometimes anti-anxiety drugs are necessary, and it's better to do that early to disrupt the cycle. Some things that have been effective according to the literature: * Karen Overall's Relaxation Protocol with a focus on desensitising the dog to cues that the owner is leaving. * A signal that is played to the dog when the owner is about to return. You could try calling a mobile at home or something a few minutes before you get home. Probably should start with very short trips out, though. * Encouraging the dog to find contentment independent of the owner, such as giving them Kongs. * A special toy or treat the dog only gets when you are leaving them. I did a literature review on this a while a go and was surprised to find the most effective was apparently the second one, although it's not really used anymore. A fellow had an 80% success rate with it some 30 years ago if I remember correctly. I don't know why it doesn't get used. The other treatments were hard to judge effectiveness because a lot of owners don't follow the instructions. So a special toy or treat appears to be more effective than the relaxation protocol, but owners are unlikely to actually do the full relaxation protocol. Just as an example. Anyway, I would get the dog assessed.

Lots of different people use dog parks and consideration for those users goes both ways. I do my best to keep my dogs from intimidating other dogs at the park. It doesn't matter that they are friendly and non-aggressive. Some dogs just see big black giant or little tank and get anxious. It is not fair on them to feel anxious in the park. Conversely, I am tolerant of dogs rushing up to us. I have carefully socialised my boys so that they know what a friendly rush looks like and are not bothered by it, which helps a lot. There is no need for me to kick or scream. It would not help the situation if I did. My dogs are used to me being relaxed. I don't want to fly off the handle in front of them and possibly scare them myself. It is really not that hard to get along with other dog park users. Just yesterday someone's Great Dane puppy got too boisterous with my little Vallhund and he had a go at her. The GD's owners put her back on leash and apologised, I put my Vallhund back on leash and apologised, explaining that he was a bit intimidated by her size and that I understood it was difficult to manage a dog that was so big but still a puppy. My Vallhund recovered immediately and there was no indication of a lasting effect. Everyone was happy. It's just not that hard! I have never needed to shout, but you can bet that if anyone ever shouted at me I would apologise profusely and take measures to MAKE SURE my dog never bothered that person again. It doesn't matter what the rules are or whether my dogs are breaking them or not. It is just not fair for my dogs to have a negative impact on people or dogs I am sharing the park with.

I've spent 5 years at university, and a couple of years doing various certificates and short courses. They are a foundation really not the be all and end all. I have learned a hell of a lot more being out and about then being in the classroom over the years. This last degree especially has been quite a lack of hands on experience comparably. I've spent 5 years at university, and a few years out and about doing what I learnt in university. Degrees vary in their practical experience, as I'm sure you realise. Even the same degrees vary from university to university. I have never said university is the be all and end all, but I don't see why it should be written off on the basis of not offering enough practical experience. The point I was making is it's not an inherent problem with all university degrees. I had field-based courses every year of my undergrad, and I am so glad the uni I went to offered so many of those. They were by far the most valuable courses I did in my whole degree. Nothing prepares you for field work except field work. As I've said before, I agree that degrees are meant to be a broad foundation to build on. They don't teach you specific skills. You learn those later if you keep going. But where you keep going to is anywhere you like, really. The only limitations are time and money. And maybe finding a supervisor. Not that it will necessarily make you better at anything in particular, but a valuable experience in my opinion. Particularly if you like problem solving.

Did you have qualification or certification, Cosmolo? Perhaps there is a difference.

I don't think its that simple? What do you mean, a PhD isn't simple? I'm objecting to the notion you don't get practical experience in degrees. You do if you want it. I mean, it's hard to draw any conclusions about dog behaviour without looking at the behaviour of a lot of dogs. I'm quite looking forward to spending next year watching a couple of hundred dogs learn the same task and measuring the differences. Not for everyone, and sometimes it might be overkill, but it needn't be lacking on the practical experience front.