corvus

Hmm, it's hard to say. Personally, I wouldn't use it on Erik to calm him down during play. Play is arousing in a positive way, usually. I know some folks that are using it to overcome anxieties about Stand For Exam and the likes. It's a delicate balance between enough arousal to want to play in spite of other distractions and distractions depressing arousal so a dog won't play. My guess is it won't work. If Midge is getting that riled up that she doesn't want to listen to you, I doubt the TS would bring her down enough to get that far, but that's just based on my experience with Erik. If he's really up, the TS won't bring him down, but doing some down-stay training might. What it would work on with Erik is if Erik is up enough to want to play but not actually playing much. He'll walk around trying to get people or the other dog to interact with him. He's bored and wants something to do. The TS in that scenario tends to send him to sleep, so it's good for conditioning down-time. If I had a problem like yours, considering I already have a TS I would use it in conjunction with other things. For example, I might set about conditioning down-time. Go to the training section and check out the thread I started about manipulating arousal where I've explained how I've been using massage and the TS to condition Erik to be calmer throughout the day. But it's questionable whether the TS alone would be enough to start the ball rolling with an excitable Staffy that wants to play all the time. Erik already had been taught to hold still for massages, so perhaps Midge would need more help than that. Doing some massage work on a mat while the dog licks a Kong is something I found helpful with Erik in the beginning when he was a super wired puppy. I'm not sure if that was very clear. What I'm thinking is I would bring a playful dog down first, using massage or maybe down-stay exercises, or a Kong or something to chew on, and THEN put the TS on with the intention of bringing the dog down even more so they switched off and had a rest for a few hours. If you follow the same routine each time and put this on cue, there's a good chance you could condition down-time so you don't have to say anything at all. They will just develop a rhythm of going up and down at the times when you have created ups and downs in the past. Does that make sense? Sorry, that was a very long post!

That is a fair call. Sorry, I was thinking "Not another one..." before I knew the full story. I find formulating a post often makes me realise what the answer is before I even get to posting it.

Good luck, sllebasi. CWEW, why don't you just try some good old fashioned counter-conditioning first?

Well said! It's like the objection to drinking recycled water. I'm like, what do you think happens in your tap water before it gets to you?? I've seen it in its natural state. It has fish fornicating in it, frogs with diseases peeing in it, kangaroos standing in it, mangey foxes pooping in it... I'll take the recycled water, thanks. It's more stringently filtered and cleaned than water collected from the environment. Sorry, water rant over. I am profoundly aware of what goes on my hands before I put them in my mouth. Sometimes it's *gasp* poopy. Thankfully, we have this little thing called antibacterial handwash and if you wash for a full ten seconds and scrub around your nails and hand creases, you should get most of the nasties off. If you don't wash for that long or scrub, then you may as well kiss the dog's butt, frankly. Thank heavens most of us have a half-decent immune system. Don't give me this rubbish about dogs licking their butts and then licking a plate you will presumably wash in hot, soapy water afterwards being a health concern. If anyone comes into my house thinking that, they will leave with a more solid education in what contaminants they encounter in their daily lives without dogs.

There is value in reality, Erny. I used to show cattle, too. Some people tied a ribbon around the tail of an animal that kicked, but it wasn't very common. I believe it came from the horse folk. I never got kicked because I was scared of it happening and so I was super careful. That's my point about consequences dictating how people handle risks.

See a behaviourist, obviously. I think you're doing the right thing in anticipating when trouble is likely and preventing it with physical barriers. The problem with physical barriers is that they tend to increase frustration, which can heighten arousal and change the nature of the aggressive behaviour. Seems likely to me that Kate is reacting to a negative association she has with Duke, now. The most widely accepted method of changing a negative association is counter-conditioning, but the important thing to remember about CC is that your dog needs to be under threshold for it to be effective. That means no lunging, barking, snarling etc. That is the grossly simplified view, as it has to be because it's over the internet. Why anyone asks advice for serious problems over the internet is beyond me, to be honest.

It's not an excuse; it's an explanation. People ARE lazy. I sure am. It's called energy conservation, and it's evolutionarily stable. Even thinking about something costs energy. What's more, what happens when you give your dog an instruction and the dog ignores you? Not giving the instruction at all would be preferable on a sub-conscious level. You can't blame people for being people. I used to think "If I can do it, why can't everyone else, dammit!" I grew up and realised that some people really can't do what I can do, or at least need to train themselves before they can. There's no impetus to train yourself if the consequences aren't a big deal and you don't have the natural inclination. I find it easier to keep my head and decide on a course of action if I can imagine why the objectionable behaviour is happening in the first place. That's all.

I wouldn't take it personally. Some people have some funny ideas of what sharing a beach means. Thankfully, I've never had anyone behave like that towards me or my dogs, but if I did I would just put them on leash and keep walking. It's not worth getting upset about.

Whoa there, Nellie. While there may be little evidence that prong collars "harm" dogs physically, there is evidence to suggest that dogs that are trained with P+ are more likely to show aggressive behaviour directed towards the handler than dogs that are not trained with P+. However you might like to think of a prong collar, they wouldn't work if they didn't constitute positive punishment. Those who have expressed concern about pairing punishment with children have, I think, their concerns grounded in a solid understanding of classical conditioning. Furthermore, there is no evidence that I am aware of that prong collars are a "kinder" tool than others available. If you know of such evidence, I would love to see it. There is also no evidence that head collars cause harm that I am aware of. Again, please enlighten me if you know otherwise. Head collars are used extensively in the treatment of anxiety and aggression problems if the literature on the matter is to be believed. So I think that it is unfair to judge the RSPCA's campaign on the basis of "evidence of harm". There have been no studies on it that I know of, but I do think it is fair to consider it a tool designed to administer punishments and I do think there is potential to cause "emotional harm" with that, and let's not mention the potential to make aggressive behaviour worse, or even provoke it in the first place. They are surely a valuable tool in the right circumstances, but not something to play around with. Doesn't quite warrant banning IMO, but that's neither here nor there.

It's a book about training dogs written by a guy who has trained a lot of exotic animals. I like his perspective. Those exotic animal trainers know rewards and desensitisation inside out. He and Ken Ramirez have taught me to consider whether my animal CAN do what I want them to at this point. They can't if they are leery of some aspect of the training because they aren't properly desensitised, and they won't if the reward isn't good enough. Figuring out the difference between can't and won't can be a bit tricky, I think. I'm currently desensitising my pet hare to touch and movement while I work on his targeting with the eventual aim of crate training him. I'm still not convinced I can crate train a hare, but I'm damn well going to try. I'm very biased, because I really like the way Grisha communicates and the types of things she says, but I have really enjoyed the BAT dvds. I'm not quite all the way through them, but I only have one to go. She is just profoundly sensible to me. What it boils down to is why let your dog get over threshold in the first place? She gives a lot of instruction on how to avoid putting your dog in over their head and so when you make a mistake it's a very small one that is not such a big deal to recover from. I like her approach to socialising puppies as well. She exposes them to "rude" petting, but lets them learn that they can just walk away from it and it's not going to come after them. I like socialising my dogs to things that could be unpleasant and let them work out for themselves that they can always avoid and I'll make sure that works for them. I've been doing it with Erik from a young age and he is generally quite comfortable avoiding, but you can see where I did it and where I didn't, because some things I didn't realise he was conflicted about and so didn't treat it the way Grisha would have. He still barks at those sorts of things a year down the track.

We know that, but who knows what is going on in someone else's head? I think it's kind of human psychology that when there is a "safety net" we don't take as much care. Consequences dictate how careful we are. Says the girl who has been bitten by a lot of small animals that don't do much damage but nothing that is actually dangerous. I guess some people are lost causes. Whatever the case, providing a negative consequence ought to make them rethink their behaviour. I don't have a problem with anyone yelling at people that have been told and still can't manage to show you and your dog an iota of respect by actually listening. My point was just that human behaviour is generally influenced by the same learning theory that dog behaviour is. If they keep doing it, the balance of reinforcement is such that it's the natural thing for them to do and they may not even think about it consciously. Should we blame them for that? Maybe not, but that's not to say that we can't do anything about it. I would apply a punishment myself as well. Of course, people have that complicated psychology that makes things more difficult sometimes. It's sometimes more rewarding to pretend your dog is a perfect angel or you have brilliant social skills than to acknowledge the problem and fix it so you don't have to kid yourself. Shouting it out is confronting, but maybe too confronting if it puts the person on the defensive. Then again, maybe it's perfect. What do I know.

As the owner of two quite social and friendly dogs, I will admit that it is easy to forget or become nonchalant. Every time I think "Oh, maybe I'll stop this" and if something happens so that I don't manage to stop it and then nothing happens as a result, I'm reinforced for not trying very hard. If I decide I'm either going to stop it or not try to stop it, then chances are I will get lazy and not try as often as I should. Every time I decide not to try and nothing happens, I'm reinforced for not trying. It's the same way criteria slip when you're training, really. Mind you, I'm not to the point yet where I would let my dogs walk up to a muzzled dog, or one I know is leery of other dogs. Even when people say it is fine I don't want to make the other dog feel anxious and risk reinforcing it for being snappy. I find owners aren't always brilliant and knowing where their dog's threshold lies. But then, maybe it goes the other way for them as well. They make a mistake, dog snaps, and that's where it ends. They realise that wasn't so bad and don't pay as close attention next time. Anyway, if someone yelled at me I'd be mortified. But maybe sometimes I need to be yelled at before I can blithely walk into making a mistake. I'm not making excuses for anyone, but maybe it would help to see it from the POV of the person with the friendly dog. Maybe they are focused on their dog and see your muzzled dog and think of it as safe because it is muzzled and therefore can't hurt their dog. Each time they let their dog interact with yours and their dog doesn't get hurt and they don't get told off, you're just letting the habit perpetuate itself. My guess is it's not so much the person doesn't "get it", but the balance of reinforcement is in favour of them repeating the behaviour over and over again. Approach it like a dog training problem.

Oh, I forgot Gray Stafford's book "Zoomility". It is gold. I loved it and highly recommend it. And Karen Pryor's book "Reaching the Animal Mind" is excellent.

Do you know about Rough And Tumble play? There's been a heap of research done on it, mostly on rats. There was a show on ABC a couple of weeks ago that showed neurons from the brain of a rat that was allowed RAT play and one that wasn't. The difference was profound. It may be dangerous, but there is evidence to suggest it is a very important aspect of brain development in young mammals.

Our boys are allowed to lie on our feet as long as they are quiet and we can ignore them. When other people are around Erik tends to want to see if they know the rule about lying down quietly and will try barking at them. If they don't mind dogs, I tell them to ignore him and I will call him over and tell him to down if he needs it. They are occasionally allowed to lick plates. Usually if we ate something sticky that's hard to wash off. Like runny egg. We are practical about these things. It's not a habit, though, or Erik would be a real pest about it. ETA What constitutes "begging"?

I love Leslie McDevitt's "Control Unleashed", and Leslie Nelson's "Really Reliable Recall" dvd. I am currently watching Grisha Stewart's BAT seminars on dvd and really loving them. She knows so much and really gets me thinking about proactively shaping behaviour rather than just letting things happen and then being dismayed about it later. I have Brenda Aloff's aggression dvds, but haven't got around to watching them yet. Can't go past Steven Lindsay's books for sheer information. I'm a big fan of Patricia McConnell as well and follow her blog. I tend to go for books heavy in theory, but I'm loving "Right on Target" because it's so easy to follow. Somehow still can't get OH to read it, though.

Oh, they are not dumb, but they are exuberant and sometimes don't have stellar self-control. Most dogs can learn well enough if they are calm enough to think. Look up Dee Ganley's "Chill Out" game, which is here. Although I found by the time I had my puppy well enough trained to play this game I no longer really needed it as the pup had grown out of the worst of it. Perhaps it is a good thing to have in the wings, though. I am a great believer in free play. Evidence suggests it is more important in developing creativity and coping skills than we ever imagined. But when play gets too intense it can turn nasty, and the last thing you want is your little Schipp getting in trouble if she ever tries to express a desire for the play to stop and the SBT doesn't take kindly to it - something I've seen SBTs do and it frightens me. I don't have any SBTs (and never will, thanks!), but my approach to arousal in general is if I think it is too high I need to do something to make sure this doesn't become a habit. Enter self-control exercises and the chill out game. Rough play is proportional to arousal, so I would monitor and not just stop them or split them up when it gets too rough, but take steps to calm them down a bit. Food in exchange for calm behaviours like downs can work well. If you do it every single time for a while, you might be able to condition the SBT to regulate her arousal to some extent during play. Don't hold me to that, though. I've never tried it! At the least you should be able to teach them a "chill out" cue so you don't have to actually get up from your cuppa and intervene physically.

I remember reading up on this a while back and as I understood it some dogs could face problems after eating just a few grapes or sultanas, but other dogs ate loads and there were no problems. The message I took was that some dogs have the intolerance and some don't, and those that do have it in varying severities. But a grape or two I wouldn't worry. It would surely be very rare for it to have an effect.

Are you ready for that behaviour science lesson?

Dogs can hurt themselves in play just as easily as in any other activity. As in everything, monitor and use common sense. My older dog rarely body slams or anything like that. He plays rough with his little brother, but Erik is the one that has to have chill out time here and there.

I would let them be dogs. If they are both willing, why restrict them? My younger dog played with my older dog for hours every day when he was a baby. He eventually settled down and now they only play for about one hour every day. It's good body conditioning IMO. My dogs are lean and toned!

I have to admit I'm confused about Dobes sometimes. I have met one or two Dobes that were wildly out of control and put the fear of god into me, but the rest have been quite sensitive and sensible dogs. My OH's brother rescued one at 2 years that I swear must have been mostly neglected and he is soooo sensitive. Someone merely has to say "Jaaaack" in a growly tone and he melts. He has barely had any training but acts like a well trained dog. He is active, but when he's at home he is quiet and easy to live with. I have met more dobes like that than like the "quick, get the dogs away from that dobe" kind.

I have looked at this one too and heard that they aren't that sturdily made as well. Do you need to refill it with water all the time to keep it cool? No, just fill it once and away you go. It's always cool. It works well in that sense. I've been dragging it around trying to find places to put it that might appeal to Kivi and it hasn't shown any sign of wear from this. I have it sitting on a scrap of cow hide to make dragging easier. It's pretty heavy once it has, like, 9L of water in it!

I think ours is a Cooler Mat, or Canine Cooler, or something like that. You fill it with water and it has cooling chemicals inside it, that apparently taste delicious because my dogs kept trying to drink the water as I was filling. Apparently they are not sturdily made, although they have a 12 month warranty. I haven't had any problems with ours except the dogs don't actually use it! It's nice and cool, though. I've thought about lying on it. Got it for Kivi and have had him sitting or laying on it for treats or chest rubs, but as soon as I leave him he gets up.

Because we like visiting National Parks. We are wildlife buffs and whenever we go somewhere we find spots on the way where we can look for uncommon or threatened animals. It's not a very dog compatible hobby. We also find it is a bit stressful trying to find places where we can leave them if we want to go and do something they are not allowed to participate in, like go get dinner at a restaurant. We always miss them badly, though, and spend hours pathetically looking at photos of them on the laptop.