corvus

I think that if trainers better understood why their methods work when they do, this would not be such a problem. I think I probably mentioned this earlier in the thread. It's not that the method doesn't work. More likely, it's not suitable for the situation because it cannot be applied correctly for whatever reason. That is my opinion. A punishment for one dog is a reward for another. A reward one moment is an aversive the next. If a trainer can nut out what exactly the balance of reward and punishment are from moment to moment, and are able to work out what the owner is capable of doing, they should be able to prescribe a method that will be used correctly and therefore will work. Provided they have also taken into account the emotional state of the dog, and perhaps the owner! If it doesn't work, that's no reason to throw your hands up in defeat. Sometimes people are wrong about what they think is going on. However, just saying "you're not doing it right" is of limited use. If the owner can't for whatever reason do it right, the trainer needs to be able to recognise that and change the approach. For me, I think it is sometimes difficult to tell the difference between something that is not working and should be abandoned and something that is working slower than it should because it needs some tweaking. I know my dogs and how fast they should learn, but I don't know other dogs. I would still like to see trainers with a stronger background in theory. I think it would reduce this kind of frustration.

Okay, this is just my opinion, but I do spend every day poring over the "limited" research on dogs and training and I don't think it's very limited. The subtleties are endless. As far as learning theory goes, it would take a lifetime to take it all in. There is still heaps we don't know, but there is also heaps we do know. It is exceedingly complicated sometimes, but if you have the foundations and just slowly build on your knowledge it all tends to make sense. Well, I think it does. It becomes a network of knowledge. The oddest things turn out to be useful in practical situations. Animal behaviour is very variable, and that's the way it's meant to be. All that variation makes it hard to make sense of it, though. Wherever there's a rule there's an individual breaking it spectacularly.

Dogs live more demanding lives now than ever IMO. We have dogs confined to small backyards or houses, dogs who are left alone for 10 hours a day, dogs that were bred to work all day that get just an hour of exercise, dogs that get no exercise... To me we ask an awful lot of them these days and I am not surprised some have difficulties adjusting. I don't think people giving "bad" advice and taking money for it think they are giving bad advice.

I would love it if Erik were just a little less defensive. He scares the hell out of people that come to the door, but really he just feels overwhelmed. It's not good for him. I think that he would be happier if he was a little more discriminatory about potential threats. I've done stacks of socialisation with him and I believe it has helped, but I also think he's always going to be a bit fiery.

They are recommended on house rabbit sites/lists as rabbit toys, so I gather that means they are harmless to chew.

I am always impressed by dogs that can move backwards with precision! I taught Erik to back onto a log, and then recently got him to reverse up a few stairs while we were out. I was so chuffed I could barely contain myself. I was like, "OMG! My dog can walk backwards up steps! That is freaking insane!!" Recently I've been teaching Kivi to balance on some logs. He is really awful at it, but consistently improving, bless him. After a couple of weeks he has started pushing Erik out of the way on the logs so he can do his log tricks. They are like children. "Move, Erik, I have to do my log trick." "KIVI! I was there first!" "Mine is more important." "I want to do mine! Get out of the way!" "Make me." "Ha! I got your treat!" Erik always puts exclamation marks at the end of every sentence. This morning he helped Kivi dig a hole at the dog park and tried to force Kivi to get into it. We joke that he likes to pretend to be a psychopath. I throw treats when I'm resetting the dog so they learn the behaviour from every angle and learn to move across greater distances.

:snort: They have to make a living. I'm yet to meet a wealthy animal trainer. Well, maybe Ken Ramirez and Steve White. I imagine they make a lot of money speaking. Ramirez seems to be doing a seminar or being keynote speaker every other week. Maybe Karen Pryor seeing as she seems to be a pretty smart businesswoman as well as a good trainer. Anyway, exceptional trainers with excellent communication skills are not particularly common.

My mother's dog has chronic yeast problems in his ears. A Malaseb solution is used to manage it. Works better than any ear cleaner and gives the poor pup instant relief.

Thank you, so very kind. Like the training make good dog, I hoping my chatting makes good english, yes?. I tell my wife I get on here for my english improving, but she ask why a dog forum to do this, she think I come here because for chat about dogs, nothing do do with learning better english, but is good excuse to chat dogs for me, but I dont think she believe me?. Never mind is good to chat dogs for pleasure anyway, yes? Joe Love it! I think your english is already improving and you've barely been here a week, Joe. May as well practice your english chatting about something you're interested in. :D

Digestive acid denatures most venom.

If dominance is defined as gaining priority access to a desired resource, then Bitty is dominant! Patricia McConnell often spoke about her Border Collie Pip, who would grovel her way up to any member of the pack and flop around in front of them on the ground screaming submission until the dog got fed up with her and let her have whatever it was she wanted. This worked even on the Pyr, Tulip. She made the point that just because Pip got what she wanted without aggression or posturing or threats but through submissive behaviour didn't mean she was necessarily submissive. After all, she got her desired resource. I define a submissive dog as one that gives access to a desired resource to another dog (or human, or cat, or whatever). It seems unlikely that a dog would ALWAYS be the submissive one in an interaction, but I guess it could happen. But that's why I describe behaviours as dominant or submissive rather than dogs.

Some dogs, particularly herding breeds, seem hard-wired to want to control their surroundings to the nth degree. These are the ones that get called "alpha wannabes" because they want the control, but have to constantly struggle to get it. I have trouble with this concept. My previous dog was very keen to control her surroundings and was known as the fun police. She was happiest when she had been told firmly by every other dog in the household that she couldn't control them. It was like knowing that she had no way to control the situation resulted in surrender and she would relax and just keep her head down. She seemed much calmer and more content that way. I don't think she was an alpha wannabe in that she wanted to be high ranking. She just wanted to control the world. I guess that it made her feel secure. But being a small dog not hugely confident, that control was not easy to get for her.

To a large extent, I think. Sometimes a Malamute called Rocky visits our park. He walks like he owns the place. He never hesitates, never looks uncertain, and largely ignores most dogs. My dogs will run to him and throw themselves on the ground in front of him to lick up at his muzzle like puppies. They act like he's a celebrity. If someone has a squeaky toy, he walks up to them and takes it. No "excuse me" or "can I please..." just takes it like it's his. I think that confidence is what my dogs are responding to when they grovel in front of him. Kivi acts confidently submissive. A trainer once told me he was a dominant dog because wherever there was trouble between a couple of dogs, he'd be there standing over the pair and trying to calm them. That's all he does, though! Timid or anxious dogs love him. He's very steady and non-threatening. He knows who's more confident than he is.

Erik is used to being smaller than everyone else. He is pretty comfortable with this role and handles big dogs well, but he really hates being excluded. Heaven forbid a dog should play with Kivi but not him at the same time. He's very outspoken, and he is very strong willed as well. JoeK pretty much described him to a T except for the fear thing. He does get frightened and easily unsettled, but he's still a youngster. He has some growing up to do yet.

What is/was you're idea of a dominant dog and how it acts? Back then I thought a dominant dog was one that was constantly challenging their owners. In a dog the size of an Akita, a bit of a scary thought. But when I met some Akitas I saw that they were very grounded, confident dogs. They don't put up with things, but that doesn't mean they don't ever listen to you or that they won't be content unless they are getting what they want. They just need reasons to co operate sometimes. My spitz breeds are both the same. The Lappie especially, and he is super mellow and gentle. Now I have a lot of academic definitions of dominance and don't really use the word to describe a personality. Some academics don't really believe it exists in dogs at all, and have compelling reasons for that. Others don't question it and have based entire experiments on the assumption it not only exists, but that their interpretation of it is valid. I guess I sit in the middle somewhere. I know another little dog that has systematically taught every dog that has ever lived in his house with him that if he wants something he will always fight for it until he gets it. To me, he plays a game no other dog in the house does. It is almost as though he defends his right to resources as a concept rather than a specific thing he desires at any one moment. He is always fully committed. He doesn't say "I want that" unless he's prepared to fight for it. Dogs learn not to cross him if they don't want a fight. Most dogs don't want a fight, even if they could beat him easily enough. Sometimes he makes a point and starts something over a small thing that doesn't matter much. Whatever he's doing, it looks a lot like establishing rank to me. Just that he's the only dog in the household that's doing it. When Erik was 6 months old he went to stay with my parents and the first thing he did was work out who controlled all the important things like food and doors and then try to force them to stay with him at all times. I was impressed with that. I don't think many dogs are capable of thinking like that in the first place.

Interesting thoughts, everyone. Before I got my Lappie I wanted an Akita. I heard they were a dominant breed and you couldn't ever relax the rules for them. I wasn't sure if I could cope with this. I met a few and they struck me as very self-contained and confident. This didn't really match my idea of dominance. Years later, I find myself with a little dog that is very proactive, opportunistic, and impulsive. He is very reward-oriented and very switched on. Nothing escapes his scrutiny and everything is experimented with in case he can exploit it. Rules generally do not get relaxed for him as he certainly does take advantage of it. We have learnt to be mindful of what he is doing and give him lots of direction. This dog is not, IMO, dominant. Ultimately, he does what is rewarding, and he's very good at getting the most out of everything in his environment, including people and other dogs. I really love his temperament. He's a handful and has changed the way I train and manage my dogs, but he is also just so fun in so many ways. I love that he keeps me on my toes and thinking several steps ahead. His enthusiasm is such that you have to think several steps ahead to have any hope of living in harmony with him. But I think that maybe some would call him dominant. One day, I'm going to want another dog like him. I want to know what to ask for.

I would like to know what exactly people mean by a "dominant" dog? How do they behave?

Well, I thought the first one was moderately constructive. It's not like you would have to systematically kill every arthropod that put a toe inside your house and yard. Kill most of them and your geckoes still won't have much to eat. I hate using chemicals around the house and would rather live with the geckoes. Once you start messing with the ecosystem it's easy to create imbalances because you don't know what relies on what. What eats the geckoes? If you kill off all the insects, spiders and so on, what else was depending on them? I don't know, so I tend to err on the side of caution and try not to mess with it if I can avoid doing so. That's my greeny, conservationist opinion, though. If you want to discourage the geckoes and get their numbers down, my original comment still stands. Fumigate the house. Then use some surface spray, and bug zappers or plug-in insecticide dealy. You don't have to have an insect-free property, just less of 'em.

Our leashes get a lot of abuse and I've never had one abruptly fail on me. So there is a point as far as I'm concerned: a cheap leash does the job, and I don't have to worry about whether it's got wet and then dragged through sand, got the clip clogged up, or the handle dunked in seawater. They hold together remarkably well IME. For the harnesses and collars it's more about the dogs' comfort and safety. I have the bowls pip has. They don't skid and don't chip. I like 'em.

I was being semi-facetious. It depends on what kind of geckoes you have. I challenge you to keep Asian House Geckoes out of your house any other way. If you live in the tropics, that's what you'll have. They are pale with little pale brown dots and make a squeaky barking sound. If we're talking about a native species, they rarely go indoors. It might be possible to encourage them to move out of your walls at least, but I don't like your chances. They are designed for cracks and crevices. If there's food, they will want to stay. They eat insects. Thus, to get rid of geckoes, get rid of your insects. Given geckoes are one of the few non-toxic ways of keeping insect populations down, I can't imagine why you'd want to get rid of your geckoes. Plus, they are thoroughly charming creatures! Even the introduced ones. Is it possible to counter-condition your dogs to the noise they are making? Or perhaps teach the dogs to leave them alone? Seems easier to me than getting rid of the geckoes. You might be able to reduce the numbers by making it harder for them to get inside and then systematically catching every one you see and putting it out. Check around your house for cracks where they can get in, maybe? They can get through very small cracks. We have a native species that lives under our house, presumably in large numbers judging by how many we see. Never found one inside, though. They like to hang around lights to catch the insects attracted to them.

Just agility? We use Susan Garret's 2x2 method to train weaves at our agility club. I guess this is a subjective question but how long (how many weeks) does it take teaching it club style? I've always wondered... I think it depends on how much homework you do. Everyone is kind of at different stages in my class. To pass foundation agility they only need to go through two poles from a metre away. I think they started weaves halfway through the 12 week course. There doesn't seem to be much pressure to do it quickly, but they help you wherever you're up to.

Poison all your insects. Geckoes eat cockroaches, crickets, moths... that sort of thing.

I can think of better things to spend my money on than pretty bowls. :D Call me overly practical, but they don't care what they eat out of and I only care that they are safe, don't get pushed all over the kitchen, don't break easily, and don't hurt too much when I stub my toe on them. We also have cheap nylon leashes. Slightly fancier collars, but only because I was looking for something soft and hemp was the toughest soft collar I could find. Treat bags, toys and harnesses, though... Only the best

Judging whether a dog is over threshold or not is often a skill that needs to be learnt, yet it is integral to treating a lot of problem behaviour including this sort of thing and I think asking whether the dog is over threshold or not is always a good place to start. But whether it solves any problems on its own or not depends on all the stuff folks on the internet can't see and therefore can't comment on. My thought is if someone doesn't know about whether their dog is over threshold, we tell them how to tell and tell them the most common way to deal with it and then they are on their own. Seems likely to me they'll need help to learn how to read their dog better and to give them a more tailored approach to solving their problem, but in the meantime maybe a rule of thumb can help. Also, when I'm training my hare, the shit hits the fan if he goes over threshold and the only thing he learns is to be afraid of whatever was present when he went over threshold. Having just spent 9 months fixing one of those moments, I sure as hell try to avoid them! Of course, my dogs are a fair bit more resilient and "over threshold" for them is a completely different ball game, so there's really nothing much at all we can learn about dogs from that. And here's a 50 page document written by Panksepp that should help: http://www.indin2007.org/enf/downloads/pan...nsciousness.pdf Well, it won't, but it's the only Panksepp link I have and I wish more people would read it because it's so freaking interesting! It feels good to deliver what my public wants.

I fail to see the similarities. If Fuzzy82 was anything like you there post would have been 10 times longer, they would of made an association between training dogs and training wild hares and they would of thrown in random links to Panksepp. I'm sorry Corvus!! Oi! Jeff Jones clearly needs to read more of my posts. ;) And some Panksepp.