corvus

You must be the most literal person on the planet. I reckon I could match that: Raz, most of my clothes are custom made with sustainable fibres and coloured with fibre-reactive, plant-based dyes, by people in westernised countries running small businesses out of their homes. I don't drink coffee, but only tap water from my stainless steel water bottle. My chocolate is fair trade and organic and I am usually thinking only of how good it tastes when I eat it. My computer was made in China, which is not exactly a third world country, and not by children AFAIK. I try to be an ethical consumer when it comes to products for me, but not so much when it comes to products for my dogs. Partly because it's hard to buy things like off cuts and chicken frames and know they were free range, and partly because it's costly. What I do think about over my tap water and fair trade chocolate is whether I can afford to be a more ethical consumer when I'm buying products for my dog, and whether other people have similar concerns. This thread would suggest some have. How freaking hilarious.

Kivi winks. Often, and nearly always with the right eye.

As far as I know, they are not. The following rant is not at you, but at the frustration I feel towards the way we handle livestock in this country. Do I not buy free range because it doesn't meet my standards for an animal that has been treated humanely throughout its entire life? What choices do we have? All I can do as a consumer (apart from writing letters to members of parliament and so forth) is to vote with my wallet and do all I possibly can to encourage producers pursuing more humane practices. It is hard being an ethical consumer. Labelling is dreadful and there are no standards in place to ensure what we are told is actually what has occurred. Take "born free range" pork products. They are born in a paddock and then put in a barn for the rest of their short lives. I'm not sure if that's better or worse! In the end I buy it if it's that or intensively farmed pork, because I feel like in general it is a step forwards, even if an objectionable one. I think that perhaps if we try as consumers to send a message to producers that we care about how our food is treated, we can maybe hope for continued improvements. In the meantime, I guess we have to decide for ourselves if it is enough. To me, the alternative is not eating meat until I feel it is enough. I can do that, but I don't think my dogs can. I am constantly frustrated with the choices I am left with.

For ourselves, OH and I generally buy free range eggs, free range chicken, free range pork, and organic beef and lamb when we buy meat. We buy sustainable fish species, and organic vegies and milk and yoghurt and organic/free range chocolate when we can get them. I have always felt a bit strange about abandoning attempts to be an ethical consumer when it comes to my dogs. It seems a bit hippy-ish to buy free range and organic for your dog. I've always been driven by trying to keep the cost of their food down. I didn't feel like I could afford to feed them free range meat. Recently, I've been questioning if that should be the driving force behind the decisions I make for my dogs. They don't have the capacity to be ethical, which always seemed like a good reason not to worry about it for them. It's a bit silly when I think about it, though. We're still killing animals to feed animals we just like having around. Are the animals that feed our pets somehow not entitled to the kind of life I prefer the animals that feed me have had? Do you feed your dog on free range or antibiotic free meat? Why/why not? Do they get sustainable fish species? Toys made of recycled materials?

With my old girl we used pate or Pecks paste and that was the only way it could be done. She was so damn fast at getting it up and spitting it out the side. Didn't matter how far back I got it and how quickly I clamped her mouth shut, there would be the pill on the outside of her lip. Somehow. In the absence of Pecks paste, though, I'd go with Erny's method. Life is so easy when you've taken the time to teach a dog to enjoy something they don't naturally enjoy.

'Heel' is also useful when you want to move away from happyily sitting puppy who is not yet done greeting. Interestingly, for a while I was using Premack. Sit and you get to jump on me when I invite you. My younger dog often won't come up when invited. By the time he's sat or downed and is waiting for his invitation he has calmed down and no longer wants to jump up. He gets his cuddles instead. When he was a baby he was all over the place. Sit was a necessity and quickly became fluent. I cannot speak highly enough of solid sits (or downs) in puppies.

Did it make a difference? Did he shame-facedly apologise for giving his breed a bad name? Did he suddenly realise that he was behaving inappropriately? I pick my battles. If it's not going to make a difference I don't bother saying anything. You risk alienating people and getting yourself worked up over something you have no control over.

I generally use going forwards as a functional reward and just go nowhere if there is tension on the leash. But nothing really beats rapid-fire treats right next to you. For my current two dogs I taught them on a long line. My reasoning is it gives the dog more practice walking without tension on the leash. I would just shorten or lengthen it to suit the surroundings. Being consistent is really important. It's hard for them when there's exciting stuff going on, though. My boys need reminders sometimes. I use "hold up" as a kind of conditioned punisher meaning they have to slow down if they want to keep going forward. Then I use "hang about" as an informal heel cue to tell them to walk at my side. That one was taught entirely with treats.

Completely ignore them when they do it and ask for sit or down and reward with cuddles and rubs. I like to step aside so they don't land on me. For some dogs just having their front paws on you is rewarding enough to maintain the behaviour.

Both my dogs get separated for training or they try to muscle in on each other's training sessions. Both make noise about it, although Kivi is much better at waiting than Erik. I'm teaching them to go to a mat in the hopes that this will help them settle while the other is training. Seems to be helping so far...

Yeah, I just wanted attention. Win!

...

I don't dislike the RSPCA. There is some very strong anti-RSPCA sentiment on DOL that I do not think is necessarily even representative of the prevailing opinion on DOL. How many lurkers are just too scared or don't care enough to share their feelings on the organisation?

Of course I am! But isn't that the point of discussing subtle aspects of learning theory? :D Thanks Jigsaw.

Oh, I agree.

At the risk of offending a great many people, I wouldn't do it, either. My dogs basically live inside and rarely use our backyard for various reasons. We exercise them twice a day for a total of about 90 minutes to 2 hours. Even so, they need the mental stimulation of the backyard as well. I hate hate hate the fact that I can't leave them out there for fear they will bark and upset our sensitive neighbours. All they want to do is poke around and be dogs. It guts me that they can't do that and we are in the process of getting the house up to scratch so we can sell it and move somewhere that has more room for them. I've seen my dogs in a bigger yard and I am convinced it is a more natural environment for them and they are better suited to it. Perhaps it would be different if I didn't have young herding type dogs, but I feel quite strongly about this at the moment. Similarly, my last dog lived in a variety of houses/yards and she was always happiest with a large yard and another dog she got on with. Every dog I've known has enjoyed just lying in the yard on a daily basis. I don't blame them. I like it, too.

If I look at in terms of antecedent -> behaviour -> consequence it makes more sense. Mind you, what's the antecedent of writing? Receiving important information?? Someone saying "write this down"? I'm a compulsive drawer. Literally, put a piece of paper and a pen in front of me and I will draw something on the paper. For me, the antecedent maybe is just the presence of pen and paper? That's getting more like the point I think Kathy was making. I wouldn't draw if the pen didn't make a mark, but I would write if the pen didn't make a mark.

I went to South Coast Dog Training Club in Dapto for a while. Only just stopped because the drive was 50 minutes for me. I was going for agility and class size was about 6. I'm not sure what obedience is like, but Toujour on here does obedience through that club.

Me too. I guess what Kathy is getting at is a reinforcer can be just good enough to maintain a behaviour but not good enough to increase its occurrence? Say for example when you say "good dog" but don't pair it with any other reinforcer. If it hasn't been paired with another reinforcer, it may still mean something to a dog simply by the body language and the tone that accompanies it. But if it's just a soothing "gooood dog" it's unlikely to be something a dog will work for, but it may be something that maintains a behaviour the dog performs under low distractions. I almost never rewarded my previous dog with food, but she often got a "good girl" when she naturally did something I wanted her to do. I taught her to shake the water out of her coat on cue by saying "shake" a moment before I thought she was going to do it and "good girl" if she actually did. It didn't produce great reliability, but it did work in as much as she was more likely to shake on cue than not on cue and if you crammed it in there a moment after she got out of the water you might escape a drenching. Maybe. Of course, it's difficult to say how reinforcing "good girl" was to her in light of the fact it was often all she got in the way of positive reinforcement from me. There may have been an element of -R in there for a dog like her that was very devoted for all I know.

Hmmmmm.... *darts looks this way and that and tries to look inconspicuous* OH and I do the vast majority of our training in dog parks and dog beaches for various reasons. It is really frustrating sometimes. Honestly, I am not nearly hawk-eyed enough to do this successfully. I get caught up in training and don't see things that my dogs do. I've got some "look, sometimes we can work around other dogs and not need to greet them" training sessions planned away from the dog park. It's hard to find somewhere where dogs won't randomly come racing up to you, though. I gave up on that one long ago. The boys are not too bad. I can work them off leash around other dogs, but it's a wee bit unpredictable. One of the reasons I decided to do some CU foundation exercises was because I thought Erik and I would enjoy agility more if he wasn't getting distracted by what other dogs were doing. *snort* I just wish it were as easy as being calm and assertive. I have a training video where I break off a training session abruptly with Kivi to have a screaming match with the neighbours over the fence. Afterwards in the video, I look extremely upset and shaken and Kivi looks completely oblivious to the fact, bless him. Erik is a bit more sensitive, but I'm pretty calm and assertive by nature and it somehow doesn't result in a submissive dog. I feel cheated!

Actually, I'm most surprised I actually got some replies.

This is critically important to dog training! Absolutely critical!

Unless she meaning the motivation or drive to do the writing. Perhaps if the pen dont work you dont do the writing with something else because you rather use the pen, you give up and say bugger the pen, I dont do writing now because the pen dont working? To understand her logic about the pen, really need to know in the dog training what she was doing for the relationship of pen and dog for what she talking about? Joe *head esplodes* I guess the litmus test is does the behaviour increase if ink flows? I would argue it doesn't, but it is maintained, which I guess is also in the definition of a reinforcer. If ink stopped flowing, my guess is the writing-with-a-pen behaviour would cease, suggesting that the ink flowing reinforces it. Having said that, I have scratched away with a pen with no ink flowing because I really needed to write and I had nothing else to write with. It is extremely frustrating, but what else do you do? In that case, perhaps my motivation to write overcomes the negative reinforcement of no ink flowing?

Leslie McDevitt has just started up the official CU yahoo group again, in preparation for the release of the puppy CU book. I want a CU class to go to. *pouts* I was reading about the way McDevitt gradually introduces sudden environmental changes to classes and knew a moment of the purest envy. Oh, it would be so sweet to be able to prepare for SECs rather than trying to manage after the fact. Think I might be stalking dog training classes in the near future.

Here's Erik showing off on the logs at the dog park, as requested by Cosmolo. I even left Kivi in there trying to muscle in on Erik's moment. OH has been trained well, though. I grumble at him every time he lets one of the dogs interrupt what I'm doing with the other one and he has learnt to pay attention and call them away. I reward this with kisses and thankyous.