corvus

Yesterday I walked them about 5km in about an hour and 40 minutes, but we stopped a few times and did some training probably amounting to about 20 minutes and went very slow through the park so they could have a proper play and wrestle for about 20 minutes.

Haha, that's a bit how I feel about Erik. I don't know what we are going to do next time we go on holidays. Usually we leave them with my parents, but last time he was there he took to chasing my mum's Sheltie to make her run away whenever he didn't know what else to do. I don't think it's fair on them to leave him there to terrorise one of the resident dogs, get himself outrageously worked up every time one of the others looks like she might want to play fetch, and upset the cats. Erik is just a lot of work if you are not used to having a dog like him around. I have a "Uh-oh, I think Erik is learning something. Quick, have to work out what it is before it's too late!" crisis on a regular basis. I really hate trying to break him of habits. It's haaaaard. *pouts* I'd take a quirky GR for a night. I mean, what could possibly go wrong? Erik has really honed my "trouble" radar. On the topic of non dog people, I guess it doesn't bother me much. If the dogs aren't going to enjoy themselves they stay at home. My SIL always says we can bring them but they just have to stay outside. So we don't bring them. Mostly we are too worried they won't like being outside. My BIL invites them, but we don't take them because his dogs don't like mine and I'm the only one that apparently cares about this.

That happened to my mother. They live on a battleaxe block and the owner of the house at the top of the block had a heeler mix that started out nice enough, but soon grew into a frenzied monster whenever we walked the dogs up our driveway past the dog's backyard. He was usually tied up, but not always. There was no fence, so if he was loose he would just cannon straight for my little corgi. Couldn't stop him. We tried several methods. Eventually we picked the corgi up and carried her past him, but that didn't stop him either and he ended up biting my mother's arm because it was holding my dog. On the plus side, the owners had a 10ft steel fence up by the end of the week. On the downside, it took my dog quite some time to recover psychologically. She would get frantic every time we walked past the fence for the rest of her life. Later, those people moved out and some others moved in who also have a dog. It throws itself at the fence and scares the current dogs even more than the loose dog that charged them did! My mother has been bitten by her own dog who was so terrified by the unknown monster crashing on the other side of the fence that she spun around and bit the nearest thing, which was mum's leg. The unknown monster sends Kivi out of his mind as well. Whenever I visit I drive my dogs up the driveway when I walk them so we don't have to deal with the monster. Aidan, I thought I had Ghandi and Cthulhu! My Ghandi doesn't understand dogs that shout at him for walking by, and my Cthulhu is kind of undersized and slightly hysterical. My wee little corgi Penny once put the fear into a GSD that lived across the road from us and used to shout at her from behind the gate. She ran up to it and smartly bit its nose between the bars of the gate. It bolted and that was the last time we ever saw it. It would bark at us from behind the house. I have this theory I call the kamikaze effect. When a small and seemingly over-matched animal suddenly runs at a much larger animal, the larger animal interprets this excessively brash move as an indication that the small animal has a secret weapon they should fear and thus they run away. This theory came about after my cat was looking inside a bag and when I opened it a mouse leapt out at his face, then turned and ran directly for me. We both ran away. All tongue in cheek of course.

We don't walk our dogs on leash on the streets much. Yesterday I thought maybe I'd walk the dogs to the dog park instead of driving them. It's about a 2km walk. Halfway there all three of us had the crap scared out of us when a dog errupted from behind a low brick wall and launched through the front gate, looking every inch like it was going to take us apart. Thank heavens whoever the bright soul was who left the dog out there with no supervision other than a bunch of kids had the presence of mind to at least tether the dog. It hit the end of the long rope it was on and then repeatedly threw itself in our direction, getting itself so worked up it was frothing at the mouth. The boys reacted quite strongly to this display, as I would if a raving lunatic came bursting out from behind a bush brandishing a knife and screaming obsceneties. I didn't trust the rope and quickly tried to get my dogs across the road, almost stepping out in front of a car. Took a deep breath, stood on the curb waiting for the car to pass, which had slowed down having apparently seen that I was possibly going to leap out in front of them, talked the dogs down from bouncing at the end of the leash to standing next to me and barking, then got them across the road, and took a few moments behind the safety of a motorhome to get Erik's head screwed back on and let my heart stop pounding. I remembered that's why I don't usually do street walks. There is no dog on earth I fear more than the territorial one that appears out of nowhere, barking and lunging hysterically. I'm not sure how people cope. I go to the dog park everyday and I could count the number of times my heart rate has increased on one hand. I had two more minor scares before I got home. How do you cope with dogs that spring out from behind barriers, barking and lunging at you as if they want to tear you into little pieces? I've been charged by a few like that. Scares the bejesus out of me. At least at the dog park you can see them coming and often get out of their critical distance before they get a chance to explode.

Do you use Karen Overall's protocol for relaxation in behaviour modification? I'm interested that in some circles it or something like it is held up as the general first step in behaviour modification, but it's not spoken about much in other circles.

Finnish Lapphunds often have a bit of a weird hang up about birds. Mine spent a lot of time as a puppy looking up. He befriended a magpie when he was small, but I was never sure if he would hold so still because he liked watching it or because he was waiting for a chance to pounce on it. I wouldn't trust him around poultry at all. He gets very excited about ducks or swans. It's like a cumulative effect. A duck is the size of maybe 4 regular birds, thus he gets 4 times as excited by them. Also the burrs are dreadful. Got to brush him out every day in the summer. Burr season has been long this year and we're still having troubles. But maybe a Swedish Vallhund would be suitable. They are like a corgi, but maybe a bit more athletic and fearless. Mine will launch himself bodily at the Lappie and drag him to the ground in a cloud of dust. One time he lined himself up and jumped off a log onto Kivi's head. He is pretty hardcore and doesn't mind playing with large dogs, but I'd still go for a larger breed. I think a Golden would be a good match.

:p I don't really understand how you can love an animal but have no connection with them. I've met animals I don't really like through no fault of their own, but that doesn't mean I can't understand them, work effectively with them, and discover aspects of their nature I do like after all. You get out what you put in. What can you love about an animal if you can't connect with them on some level?

My corgi was always one for camping on my foot for the next 2 days after I came home. She wouldn't let any of the other household pets approach. She was a bit of a one person dog. I always worried about leaving her. She would mope for a couple of days after I left and then get terribly clingy when I came back, but she would cope all right in between. When Kivi Tarro hasn't seen us for a few weeks we get a joyful bark and wooowooorowwroo! and then he tries to climb into your lap and gives you special Kivi kisses on your neck and jaw. He licks and gently mouths. The next day he'll get excited all over again when we get up and he realises we are there again, but then he gets used to it. It's so cute when they forget you're there and get excited all over again. Erik is just a cutie. He always greets with plenty of enthusiasm.

I have never had an instant connection with an animal. It takes time to get to know them, and until I do to me they are a bundle of possibilities and not much else. And a dash of chaos. I expect it to take months. A year. Some fires burn slow. I lost a pet rabbit when she was 6 months old once. She was just reaching maturity and I felt like I was starting to get to know her. Losing her at that moment felt like being robbed. It felt like she was stolen from me and all those possibilities puffed away into nothingness before they could be realised. I was cheated, and I have never felt so bitter about one of my pets passing away. For me, learning all about an animal and who they are and how they behave is a big part of the wonderment of having companion animals. I take my time and savour it. I would remind you that there's no rush. Maybe your relationship is just a slow burning one.

That would be my OH... I shrieked at him. He said they smelt really good. I asked him if they tasted as good as they smelt and he said yes.

I'd go number 3. Sometimes I find with Kivi especially seeing as he's a bit bigger and not as naturally agile as Erik that he needs a bit of foundation work before I can make headway on something. I try to break down the behaviour into a stupidly basic list of what he needs to be able to do in order to master the behaviour and watch him to see if he can actually do them all in other circumstances. If he only does one occasionally I work on it so he becomes more comfortable with it and we build up some muscle conditioning/memory for it. So you know your dog can do the behaviour, but does he only do it in the luring context? Does he ever do all or parts in other circumstances?

I was thinking maybe it could be done with targets. If I could teach a dog to keep their front feet on a target and then cue a down from a sit, maybe use another target to encourage dog to flip haunches back... Probably not with Kivi, though. I've been teaching Kivi his foldback down from a stand with a target stick directing his nose down between his front legs. So I've only been rewarding when he folds down. This has resulted in OH asking for a down from a sit and Kivi going "Mmmm.... I don't know how." We are keeping "down" to mean the stretch your front feet forward thing, but Kivi hasn't learnt to differentiate yet.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it helps. So does breaking it down into smaller steps. There's a time and place for R-. I just can't imagine that this could be one of them. I meant it as an example of a different way to get duration around food. You could adapt it to exclude tug easily enough. But if you want to spit food, go ahead. I'm sure that works as well. Knowing what I tend to put in my hands when I'm around my dogs, I don't think I could bring myself to do it! But each to their own. I remember someone telling me about show folks that keep liver treats between their teeth to get their dogs to keep looking up. Gross!

That's what I was thinking. How does this work? Do you teach two different downs? Kivi has seemed a bit confused as well. I'll just not ask for a down from a sit until I've got the foldback down on cue.

you need to the dog to hold until told to release or you put your hands out to take it. WHere is the counterconditioning to not spit when the food is near? There is no counter-conditioning because you don't need it. You just need to take it in smaller steps so he doesn't get a chance to spit before he gets marked for having it in his mouth. You can be a little tricksy and start saying your release cue like a marker and then you get the release without having to train a new cue. He will come to understand that the way to getting food is to hold the item. It becomes like a doggie zen exercise. My agility instructor taught me a variation for tugging in the presence of food. Food comes out while dog is tugging, then as soon as the dog releases the tug the food disappears again. The same thing might be quite effective here. Uh... I'm yet to find a dog treat I want in my mouth. :p There are lots of ways to teach a dog to ignore the source of the treats. I have no idea why you would use R- for this exercise. What's wrong with shaping? It achieves exactly the same thing with rewards instead of discomfort. Mason2009, I reckon you're right and he doesn't know what is expected of him. IME it usually seems to be the case.

I love it when you ask these questions! :p You only need a split second hold to mark it. If you truly can't squeeze in a marker, then change the game to more closely resemble a situation in which the dog would hold an item for longer. I snuck it into a play session. If you have a clicker-savvy dog you can capture it and shape from there.

Or alternatively, use food and no NRMs. It'll improve your timing. You only get one chance to reinforce instead of two. :p

I was finding Kivi was moving around a bit when cued down and to stand again and often swung out a bit. I was addressing this by practising next to a barrier so he couldn't swing out, which was helping, but I still wasn't loving the lack of fluidity. So I decided to teach him a foldback down thinking it would solve the problem, which it is well on the way to doing. Anyway, how does he do a foldback down from a sit? Has anyone trained that?

That's a fair call. :p

My first dog was a Pembroke Corgi. I was a young teenager and wanted a canine pal. She was everything I dreamed of. When I wanted to bring a new dog into the household, she was my main concern. I was looking for something steady, easy going, but smart and a wee bit independent. I didn't want a breed that needed tons of exercise. I also had pet rabbits and wanted something that would be compatible with them. Eventually I stumbled across Finnish Lapphunds on a list of dog breeds compatible with small pets. I was astonished to discover the breed actually existed in Australia. Did some more research, met some and fell in love. They are just so gentle. It was exactly what we were looking for. So we got Kivi Tarro and he has been everything we wanted. Incidentally, he is a couch potato Lappie, but that doesn't mean he can't keep up with us. We take him for 2 hour walks along the beach and he is fine with that. He loves to play and loves to train. I'm currently doing obedience with him and he is an absolute delight to work with. He is up for whatever we are doing, except for jogging. I got tired of towing him up hills and retired him as a jogging companion. He will run with us, but not for a full half an hour, thanks. When my corgi died it wasn't long before I wanted to get another puppy. Kivi is highly social and was obviously missing having a friend, and I was in the perfect situation to raise another puppy. We wanted a smaller breed, something that needed about the same amount of exercise as our Lappie, tough enough to stand up to his wrestling matches, compatible with the rabbits again, and good off leash. I didn't want another corgi, but OH did. We settled on a Swedish Vallhund as a kind of a "like a corgi but not a corgi" thing. My mother has one, so I knew they are outrageously smart and a little bit quirky. It took us a while to get the hang of Erik, but now that we have we adore him. He throws himself into everything he does. We imagine that he swears for emphasis a lot. He cuddles like a toddler and is about as smart as one. He needs a lot more exercise than we were anticipating, but we don't mind. Gets us out more. We have two very special dogs. They are wildly different, and that's what I love most about them. Next breed will probably be a Basenji. I like independent breeds. Erik is more herder than spitz, and Kivi is more spitz than herder, so I think I ought to complete it with something that is more hound than spitz.

I recently taught my cruisey dog to hold onto a tug toy by just shaping it from scratch. When he gets excited and bouncy he will happily grab anything I hold out to him, so I got him a little bouncy and then clicked when he took hold of it. He instantly dropped it and got his food reward and wanted nothing to do with it after that as he was in food mode, so I picked up the toy and walked away. Next time I tried it he held it twice for a second with a food reward after each one. Once he understood that holding the toy got him a click and treat it wasn't that hard to move onto other things like duration and tug. Anyway, I think you should just persist around the food. If ever I have a reward that is incompatible with another one I take steps to make it compatible. I don't want to have to pick my rewards based on what mood my dog is in or what other rewards are present. Of course, I do to a large extent, but my goal is the dog will happily work for whatever reward I want to use. I reward accepting less desirable rewards with more desirable rewards. The way I see it, it's just building up secondary reinforcers and a dog's ability to switch smoothly between rewards. You really want to play with the tug? Well, getting the ball is your gateway to playing with the tug. You want the food? Tugging on the tug is your gateway to getting the food. You want to chase the flirt pole? Well, chase the ball first and you can. When I first started doing this I couldn't imagine it working. But, it does. Very quickly IME.

Because I find it rude when people don't read the opening post and then go off on their own little irrelevant tangents. Yours are not only irrelevant, but uninteresting and kind of insulting. So sue me for getting cross about it. Are you saying you don't buy ethical products for your dogs because they don't care?? Or are you saying you don't buy ethical products at all because you don't think it makes a shred of difference?

Well, I guess you haven't seen how tight some of the places around external doors are in our house. It's bloody hard to stop a dog attached to me jumping on a visitor if I had to answer the door. I've tried it! E gets wildly over-aroused by visitors at the front door. I don't think the leash helps matters much. It does seem to make the visitors more worried. I guess they see him on the leash and think he must be dangerous. I like the baby gate better. We can cue him to sit or down on the other side of the gate and only let him through once he's calm enough not to jump on anyone. Theoretically.

I rarely used a clicker when I was leash training my boys, but these days I nearly always have one in my hand when I'm out with the dogs. I can hold a clicker in ready-to-click position, a leash, a small toy, and a little meatball ready to break off a bit and feed all in one hand. I usually end up putting the toy back in the dog training pouch, though. Anyway, it's not terribly hard to do clicker and leash. If I were doing it again today I would use a clicker. I think it's clearer. I'm yet to find a verbal marker that is as clear and attention-grabbing as a clicker.

Don't Corvy me, Raz. I didn't Razzy you. You know what's really annoying? When people don't read an opening post and then decide to argue against something they think I've said with an argument I've already used TO SAY THE SAME THING. I asked five questions in my opening post, one which was rhetorical: You answered none of them. Instead you read the topic title question and chose to only answer that one, even though I actually said at one point in my opening post that dogs are not capable of making ethical decisions. I used the title I did because I wanted to encapsulate not whether you are an ethical consumer or not, but whether you are an ethical consumer when it comes to dog products. But, you know, that's a long and tedious title. Tongue-in-cheek titles are much more fun. Until someone thinks it's more fun to take it literally. Either you honestly think I don't know when I'm anthropomorphising my dogs and I somehow started a post graduate degree in animal behaviour without passing zoologist kindergarten, or you're just being provocative. Stop it. I've got a chair in the naughty corner with "Razzy" written on it.