corvus

No, but it's not unreasonable to consider that there may have been no shaking at all. They really can be frightened to death (heart attack). Play and prey are closely related, but there are play styles that wouldn't concern me at all regarding cats, but would kill a guinea pig. If there is no internal damage, then that's a really good sign. If there is internal damage, then a professional opinion would be helpful. Ah, good point. Does the OP know how the piggies reacted around Joss usually? Would they squeal or run or show other signs of distress? Did she try to chase them? My boys sometimes bounce at my hare to make him run. It's not very predatory at all. He is frightened of them and especially dislikes Erik's barking, but he's about ten times more frightened of a dog that actually wants to eat him. He can tell the difference. He will calmly hold still and watch a dog that wants to play as long as it doesn't make any big and sudden movements, but a dog that wants to eat him sends him into a panic. It always interested me that he knew, because my domestic rabbit couldn't tell the difference. She reacted the same way to every dog. There may be a degree of habituation towards the dog by the piggies if they were regularly allowed to interact. Of course, a dog whining at them or benignly walking past is not the same as a dog digging at the cage and trying to break in. I find my hare lets me know when something is becoming habitually scary. He learns signals leading up to the scary event and starts bolting at those. Did the OP perhaps notice the piggies getting jumpy at all?

Argh, I feel your pain. It is an ongoing frustration of mine to try to direct people how to interact with my dogs. I have found I never really have control of the situation. Even when I have dogs on leash, person a few metres away armed with food, and telling person exactly what to do, the person often does something else. I have got my very friendly dog mostly sorted with Look At That from Control Unleashed. It has made a huge difference, but it will only work where the dog is under threshold. My other dog is currently going through a "sometimes strangers have food" obsessive thing that drives me crazy because he seems to think no rules he's ever been taught with us apply to anyone other than us. He is incredibly discriminatory! If I step in and tell him what to do, he'll do it, but then the situation is an interaction between me and him rather than him and the third person, so he learns nothing about the interaction between just him and the third person. I have decided to take a more holistic approach and really hammer home doggy zen with him. If he wants it, he should automatically sit or down and give me eye contact. Leslie McDevitt seems to think the environment should cue this response once it has been properly trained. But I suspect Leslie McDevitt is not as lazy as I am! I also suspect I have been letting him get things he wants largely for free here and there, watering down the effect. He wants a lot of stuff. I sometimes don't realise he wanted something until I've already given it to him. He's very good at getting knee jerk reactions out of me.

There was some concern about the cats. I would have more concern about a dog who had killed a GP deliberately than one who was playing and killed it by giving it a heart attack. That was why I suggested checking over by a hunter or vet, any internal damage should be apparent to someone who knows what they are looking for. If the GPs were killed deliberately, I would seek a professional opinion regarding the cats (although the risk is probably not high if he has been well socialised with cats). But would you be able to tell from looking at internal damage whether it was over-exuberant play or a kill? If the dog was playing and shook the animal to death, I would imagine it would look the same as if the dog shook the animal to death as part of a purely predatory motor pattern. Erik has shaken toys so hard he's torn them before, but he's never even tried to kill an animal. He watches mice and lizards run right under his nose. If he ever shook a piggie the same way he shook his toys in play, I bet it would be killed. There's a school of thought that dogs will learn what not to hunt as youngsters, so if they were brought up with cats and learnt they weren't prey, even if they go for other cats they didn't grow up with, they still won't go for their own cats. Having said that, I just wouldn't take the risk if it were me. I'd be making sure the cats and dog were always supervised or the kitties had safe places and escape routes where the dogs couldn't follow. It seems sensible.

Maybe it's a silly question for a headstrong spitz breed, but do they care if you are cross with them? I want a dog that couldn't care less if I grump at them or make a sound of outrage, that won't do a thing for me unless it's something they want to do or find it within themselves to humour me this one time, and will quite calmly and without an ounce of contrition just say no when I haven't provided the right motivation. My Lappie couldn't care less if I'm annoyed with him and I like it. I can't stay angry when he's like "yeah, so what?". My Vallhund only does what he wants to do, but he's very easily convinced. But I do like that there's no forcing him into something. "The tone" to him means he should run the other way. I like that he forces me to train when I might just be pushy myself. I like that my Lappie does exactly what is most rewarding to him. It took a bit of work to get him reliable off leash, but he is, and he just gets more so as he grows older because we are always reinforcing good off leash decisions, like checking in or running back to us when called. I understand and am very comfortable with a dog whose world is boiled down to what reinforcers are better at any one time without any of that messy social stuff that goes on. My Vall sticks close to us because he has this burning need to be close to us. He comes when called because we called and he's naturally interested in everything we do. That, I don't really get and am not entirely comfortable with. It weirds me out. So how often can you get a Mal to do what they are asked? If you build up a strong reinforcement history, could they ever be considered obedient?

I've seen animals killed by dogs that haven't had much of a mark on them. If the dog shakes them all sorts of horrendous things can happen inside their bodies with not much indication on the outside. I don't really understand why it should matter whether the dog was playing or killed the piggies deliberately. One of my dogs in particular used to get excited every time I did anything with my pet rabbit. She may as well have not existed when I wasn't interacting with her, but when I was he would get more and more excited and want to nip at her. To me, if he was left alone with her there's a good chance he would have treated her like a toy at first, but if he killed her, probably by accident, my guess is the next rabbit he came across he'd kill faster. And the next, faster still. They learn what's for killing and what's for playing with. I watched my mother's dog become a practised killer over many years. He started off barking at potential prey and now I couldn't even have him on my property because I have a pet hare. I am not convinced there is any cage in the world that could ward him off indefinitely. I have seen him tear a hole in a garage wall going after a possum, and he's only a 10kg dog. If he comes here he is inside or on a leash at all times. We all make stupid mistakes and do things we don't think are a great idea that then turn out not to be. My hare broke his leg because he could fit it through the bars of his cage. I was already in the process of designing a safer home for him when it happened, but too late. We have a two degrees of separation rule in our house. The dogs have a closed door and a locked hare enclosure between them and the hare most of the time. My dogs are not very predatory, which is why they are allowed just one degree of separation in some circumstances under supervision. If I'm opening that cage door, though, they are inside no matter what. When my rabbits lived with my mother's dog the two degrees of separation rule saved them a couple of times when someone left a door open or didn't realise the rabbits were out. My last dog mixed freely with the rabbits under supervision, but she didn't really have prey drive to speak of. She avoided them for the most part. I think we just have to be aware of what our dogs might do and make sure we manage the situation accordingly. It is a hard lesson, but now you know what Joss might do, so you're well prepared to manage those tendencies.

1. What is my relationship with the breed? (ie breeder, first time owner etc) First time owner, sort of. My mother has one that isn't a great representative of the breed, but ultimately led me to get one of my own. 3. How common is it in Australia? I think a wee bit more common than Finnish Lapphunds, but that's not very common! 5. What is the general temperament/personality? I think they tend to be quite confident, outgoing dogs if they have been well socialised. Very bold and tough and act like they are a lot bigger than they are. They are extremely clever! This makes them hugely fun to train, but they don't ever switch off the cleverness, so it pays to be aware of what they're up to and make sure they don't learn things you don't want them to. I have found they can't be taken for granted. If you want them to do something they have to want to do it. It's not hard to convince them they want to do it if rewards are on offer, but if you try to force them when they don't want to you'll end up with a dog that runs away from you. I've come to believe life is so much easier if I have Erik's willing cooperation, and in some cases I genuinely need it. That means a lot of work goes into teaching things like nail clipping and teeth checking and so on. They need a lot of socialisation early on, and mature slowly. They are quite biddable, but still have a streak of independence. They are very affectionate with their owners. Erik gives the most extreme, intense cuddles I've ever come across in a dog. We are used to it, now, but it took several months to stop being incredulous every time he threw himself backwards onto us, or snuggled up on someone's chest, or draped himself across their neck, or wriggled his way up to someone's face so he could put a paw on either side of their neck and lick them into oblivion. He is VERY cuddly when the mood takes him. 6. How much daily exercise is needed for the average adult? Erik is nearly 2 years old and is a very active and drivey Vallhund, and we have found that 90 minutes to 2 hours of exercise a day is right for him. When he's had that much he settles well at home and we don't get him wandering around the house poking things, finding things he's not meant to have, poking around in cupboards and shelves, and demanding someone interact with him. I guess it depends on what you do with them at home. If Erik only got 40 minutes of exercise a day he'd be all right, but often needs to be given things to do at home on top of that. I think most of them don't need that much exercise, though. He's also at about his most active age. 7. Is it a breed that a first time dog owner could easily cope with? Maybe if it was a nice gentle, laid back one. :D Maybe not an Erik, though. Erik has been quite challenging. But Erik is pretty extreme. Most Vallhunds aren't as full on as he is. 8. Can solo dogs of this breed easily occupy themselves for long periods? I'm not sure about this one. Erik has grown up with another dog and is very attached to him. He's not good on his own, but he's never had to be on his own, so it's not surprising. 9. How much grooming is required? Hardly any. I'm yet to meet a Vallhund that doesn't adore being brushed. I brush my Lappie every few days, and usually Erik gets a brush as well because he likes it so much. He really only needs a brush when he's shedding, though. Just to help the process along. 10. Is it too boisterous for very small children or for infirm people (unless the dog is well trained)? In general I don't think so. My mother's Vall is wonderful with kids and the infirm. He adores children despite never having much to do with them. Erik needs a bit more supervision, but he's a fair bit more highly strung. And he's still a youngster.

Malamutes have recently come onto my radar due to a couple of lovely boys I have met at our local dog park. I just love the way they act like they own the place. They are both quite friendly and lovely around other dogs, but one in particular seems to have rock star status. My boys see him and they have to run over to him and grovel at his feet. They aren't the only ones that get silly when they see him. He seems to have that effect. I hope that my next dog will be something very self-contained and confident. And something a little more independent than a Finnish Lapphund. How smart are Malamutes? Are there differences in how the sexes behave?

Never mind. I can see this is going nowhere.

But someone who needs to exercise their dog before 7am does not? You don't think being considerate of others might also include tolerance of other people's work commitments and their willingness to get up a lot earlier than you so they can exercise their dog in spite of them?

What happens if you work in the city and have to leave at 7am? 6:30am is one of the busiest times at our local dog park. We regularly turn up before 7 because OH leaves for work at 7:30am. If we happen to meet some of our friends in the parking lot, it can be very noisy for a few minutes. There's not much any of us can do about it. We have several excited dogs, some of them possibly way over threshold because they can see their friends and are waiting to be let out of the car or off leash so they can go and play. Our dogs don't get to be let off until they are calm again, but it's just not going to be instant. Sorry. I'm sure it's annoying, but our dogs need to be exercised and they inevitably get over-aroused and bark. I think that's a reasonable expectation if you live next to a dog park.

WOOHOO!!! I get Kivi cuddles and see Erik... would he give me cuddles? Probably not. He's usually too busy for cuddles when he's out and about. He says he'll give you bright, engaging Erik looks and pretend he's never been taught any manners, though. Kivi is a snuggle whore. Will be good to see Charlie and Emmy again.

What's an 'extended period'? I'd go insane if my dogs barked for an hour. Two minutes feels like an extended period to me. And apparently 30 seconds feels like an extended period to my neighbours. I've timed how long it takes me to lose it when my dogs are barking and it's not even a minute. If it's on and off, I crack at about 3 or 4 minutes. Given my dogs make noise when they are having a lot of fun, IMO they need to make noise sometimes. If they make noise for a few minutes, and then another dog comes through a few minutes later and makes noise, and then another dog... What's the difference between that and one dog making noise for half an hour straight? I stayed in a hotel in the States once for a week that had a dog park behind it. I kid you not, there were dogs barking out there at 11pm and at 4am. During peak times it was non-stop noise for a couple of hours. I counted fights at one point because I couldn't believe how often they were happening. Said to OH "Let's never live next door to a dog park." Yes, it's noisy, but it's a dog park. I wouldn't move in next to a train line and complain about the noise. Yes, we live in a society where certain behaviour is expected of our dogs. I don't think silence is one of them. I'd probably throttle my dog before they got to a full hour of barking, but I don't know what other people live with and what other people's dogs are like. I would hate to condemn someone on the grounds that their dog barks constantly at the dog park. For all you know that's THE ONLY time the dog is ever allowed to bark. Maybe it's hysterical about balls and this is the only place it can chase them. Maybe the owner knows how to make them really enthusiastic about training and is just training them. I just think it's acceptable for dogs to make a lot of noise in a dog park. Surely they should be allowed to let loose somewhere? Where else if not a dog park?

All right, we'll do the Sydney one, then.

Yes. It's a dog park! If they can't bark there, where can they bark? We live in a constant state of noise vigilance because our neighbours are liable to blow their top at us if our dogs bark. The dog park is a release for us as well as them. It is THE ONLY place we can relax and let them be as noisy as they like. I assume anyone who lives near a dog park doesn't care or they wouldn't live near a dog park. Sorry - but I don't think it is reasonable for a dog to be allowed to bark all the time before 7am on weekends. Would piss me off too, and I would be calling the council. I live next door to a park (not a designated off-leash dog park, but a park where dogs are allowed off lead) and we don't get this kind of inconsiderate behaviour. If we did, on a regular basis, I would be calling council. Oh, wait, I'm sorry! You have made me realise the error of my ways and how terribly inconsiderate I have been. We don't get constant barking at our dog park, but they are dogs and they are playing and they do bark. When my boys see their canine pals they get excited and we have a few minutes of non-stop barking that can feel like an age. I think that is entirely reasonable. Sometimes something sets all the dogs off and they all bark for a while. Some of us have to exercise our dogs before 7am. Either we exercise them in our own yards and upset our neighbours or we exercise them at the dog park and apparently upset the dog park neighbours. So go call the council. I'm sure they'll move the dog park for you.

Yes. It's a dog park! If they can't bark there, where can they bark? We live in a constant state of noise vigilance because our neighbours are liable to blow their top at us if our dogs bark. The dog park is a release for us as well as them. It is THE ONLY place we can relax and let them be as noisy as they like. I assume anyone who lives near a dog park doesn't care or they wouldn't live near a dog park. I wish they wouldn't, but it's not my dog. They aren't breaking any laws. Don't get it and think it's irresponsible, but they don't usually last. I'm understanding. It's annoying, but given Erik is very easily provoked into jumping on someone regardless of the fact he has actually been taught manners and doesn't do it to us, it is something we often struggle with and so I understand that it can be difficult. Most people apologise. That's fine by me. We apologise as well, and mutter about dogs that act as though they haven't had a minute of training their whole life. It's a bigger deal if it's a large dog that throws itself at you and cracks its head into your face. I had one scratch and bruise my leg when it cannoned into me quite deliberately. An apology would have been nice. I'm sure they didn't mean to. If they did, that is bizarre behaviour. :p It's their kids, not mine. I keep my dogs away from them and consider my responsibility upheld. Never seen it happen. Well, this is why we don't let other people's dogs play with our toys. I think it's funny when that happens. Again, we don't let other people's dogs near our toys. Every now and then one gets hold of something of ours and runs off with it. I have always found this funny. I think you should relax more as well. Not many things in the dog park get me fired up. People who don't pick up after their dogs do. And the folks that think they picked up the poo but they can't bear to carry it around with them, so leave it on the ground, bagged. I mean, come on, just put it in the bin. We get tired of picking up soggy bags of other people's dog poo. I don't love the dogs that stick their heads in my treat bag, but I can live with them. I just don't find it that hard, you know? You go in with low expectations, you manage your own dogs, and you practise predicting potential problems so you can avoid them before they occur. Sometimes it can be frustrating, but it is what you make it. If you refuse to accept that most people won't have the same ethical guidelines as you, then you will be continuously annoyed and disappointed. If you assume these annoying little things will happen, then you are prepared and can manage your dogs so the impact is minimal and all of a sudden it just doen't bother you very much.

Our local fenced dog park has three separate fenced areas. One for large dogs, one for small dogs, and one for puppies. We don't go very often because IMO the place is not big or interesting enough, and seems to attract people that just let their dogs do whatever without paying much attention. I swear the dogs that frequent that park behave weirdly. Given we have a small dog and a large dog, the separate areas is not all that useful for us. Every time I've been, the dogs in the large dogs section have been odd and my dogs didn't want to mix with them, so we moved to the small dog section. But if there's someone using it with a small dog, our large dog stays on leash.

Charming. I swear, half of 'dog park' etiquette is people skills. I spend almost as much time in dog parks reading other owners as I do reading dogs. A lot of problems can be avoided by just watching other people and erring on the side of caution. If someone is holding their dog and won't put them down, d'ya think perhaps they are uncomfortable with your dog's proximity and interest? You can think your dog is doing nothing wrong but still call it away. Particularly seeing as the other owner seems nervous. We call our dogs away if they start following anyone around, even if it's dogs and people we know. I call my dogs away if they are chasing another dog and getting that glassy-eyed, ears-forward look about them. My dogs are very well socialised and generally gentle and polite with other dogs, but intense play can so easily go bad, especially with dogs that aren't very close friends. Dogs that are very aroused in play are IMO less likely to heed signals from the other dog that they want to stop. That's where most of our problems have started. I'm a fan of viewing every interaction with another dog as a potential training opportunity. If my dog is saying politely (looking away, ears/tail down, moving away) "Please stop that", then that's my chance to reinforce the polite, non-aggressive communication by making sure the behaviour my dog doesn't like does stop before he feels the need to say it more firmly. Most of the time all I need to do is move him away from the other dog.

Thanks guys. She was a really nice dog. It's so cool when you meet people on the street with unusual breeds. On the weekend we rounded a corner during a walk and came face-to-face with one of Erik's half-brothers. We nearly died of shock. Felt pretty special to meet my first Bergamasco. I thought they were supposed to be a bit on the pushy side temperament-wise? Her owner said she was very sweet, which is how we normally describe Kivi, who doesn't know he even can be pushy. Her coat felt like a mixture of wool and horse mane. She was very cooperative letting us pet and greet.

Try some concept training, maybe. I think Kay Laurence might have some videos on YouTube about it? Try doing a YouTube search for 'match to sample'. There's a poodle person that has videos up about match to sample as well. At the APDT conference last year Ken Ramirez talked about concept training that he first started doing to keep a working line GSD happy when it was on crate rest. He taught the dog to move left and right on cue and told a very cool story about these skills saving a man's life in a fire. I can't remember the exact story, but I think the man was trapped and the firefighters couldn't find him. They sent the dog in with a radio, who found him, and he was able to direct the dog with left and right and up and down to bring him a book from a shelf that had a map of the building in it so he could then tell the firefighters where he was and how to get to him.

Today I had the pleasure to meet a charming dog that was medium sized and had a short, flocked coat. Well, a long coat, but the flocks were short. Her owner said she was an Italian sheepdog. Is this the same as a Bergamasco? She looked like one. A very cool dog! She was gentle and sweet, and reminded me of Kivi. Kivi and she exchanged gentle nose touches and she let me and OH feel her coat and gave us gentle nose touches as well. I was pretty taken with her.

It matters because the dog is not the only element in the situation. There is always a balance of risk and cost. I'm saying you can't assess that balance if you only look at whether the dog is 'harassing' sheep or not. Maybe the risk is high and the potential cost high, maybe the risk is moderate but the potential cost extremely high... whatever, no situation will be the same and therefore shouldn't be judged on one side of the coin alone. What is the risk of things going wrong, how badly wrong are they likely to go, and what would be the potential cost if they did go wrong? That's how we make decisions about OH&S, and I think it is how we make decisions whenever we are not purely driven by emotion.

On Saturday Erik had to spend the day at the vets getting his eye cleaned and thoroughly examined (corneal ulcer). The whole time he was gone Kivi wouldn't eat, barely drank, didn't get up... He just lay on the ground and looked morose. We tried to cheer him up with some training and he literally spat the treats out. Gave him a dried cows ear, which usually sends him bouncing around the house throwing it in the air like a fool, but he wouldn't touch it and turned his head away when we pushed it towards him. We took him along when we went to pick up Erik and he perked up at the vets before he'd even seen Erik. We were trying to figure out if he knew Erik was there or if he was just stimulated by being in a different environment. Erik got some very tender and loving nuzzles when he was reunited with us, and Kivi just lay down contentedly next to him. Once Erik was back home with us he magically went back to normal. Depression is not just an emotional state, but also a physiological state. There is evidence to suggest animals experience the physiological signs associated with depression in humans.

IMO you're asking the wrong questions. It's not as simple as "the dog was harrassing sheep". Was the dog chasing the sheep at an easy lope? Was the dog chasing the sheep and barking at them? Was the dog getting the sheep so panicked they were stampeding? Piling in a corner? Was it biting sheep? Did it dash after them and then wander off to do something else? There is a vast array of behaviour ranging in threat that could be considered 'harassing sheep'. I don't really care whether the land owner has the right to shoot the dog or not. To me it is a side issue. My aunt and uncle had a dog with practically no prey drive shot because she crossed someone's sheep paddock. Should she have been there? No. Should she have been shot? Not in my opinion, given the threat she represented to the sheep at the time. I think that when we make these sorts of ethical decisions we only really have our own moral compass to guide us. I don't care what right land owners have to shoot a dog on their land. And I don't care who can accurately assess the threat a dog poses. I make my judgement on the information I have and that's that. It is my belief that a dog should not be shot if it's not necessary. That is based on what I deem necessary, not the one with the gun. My opinion on the video (which is what was asked for) is that it was not necessary to shoot the dog. :D Whether I have all the information or not is as irrelevant as whether the police officer went in expecting a vicious dog that would need to be shot. Neither of us knew the full story.

Is she a veterinary behaviourist? Nope. She has a zoology degree and a PhD in dog behaviour, I think. And some kind of qualification in counselling, which seems eminently sensible to me.

I am. When is it ever justified to shoot a dog that is not posing a serious risk and is not dying slowly and painfully? Not being able to read the dog in the heat of the moment doesn't make it justified to shoot it. That is backwards logic. In the field I have been responsible for animal deaths that should not have happened. Just because it was an accident or the result of poor judgement doesn't mean those deaths were justified or that I should be absolved of responsibility for them.