corvus

I can think of any number of breeds where that would be an issue. A dog cannot defend livestock or property, hunt or work in the company of other dogs unless it can focus on the task, not the company its in. Imagine if guide dogs had such a value on other dogs Who says there is such a thing as a dog that has such high value for other dogs that it can't focus on a task it was bred for in their presence? It's kind of a circular argument, isn't it? If it occurred, they wouldn't have been bred from. If it occurs, they aren't suitable for the task they were bred for and shouldn't be used for it. There are always duds when it comes to working ability. Does that mean the duds are wired wrong? Or does it mean they just don't meet the specific needs of the people that oversaw their breeding? There is always going to be loads of variation. Dogs that live for a good doggy game and dogs that couldn't care less about other dogs. No one ever seems to argue that their dog doesn't have enough value for other dogs. They defend their dog's character to the very end. And I will defend my dogs' characters to the very end. They are very friendly, sociable dogs. They have been free to develop that part of their nature and the result is they love mixing with other dogs. Good for them. As far as I'm concerned, they should have every opportunity to learn how to be a dog, and if in the process they come to love mixing with other dogs, then that's fine by me. They are dogs, after all. I sure like to mix with humans. But is it a problem with the reinforcers, or a problem with the way a dog has been handled? When Kivi was a pup he would absolutely choose playing with dogs over anything we could possibly offer him, and did so on many embarrassing occasions. But as we all know, it's not a matter of motivator pitted against motivator. It's a matter of conditioning. Kivi goes to the dog park and spends at least half the time glued to someone's leg offering a heel often while Erik is hooning around playing with another dog. He doesn't do that because he values the food we give him over mixing with the other dogs. He does it because it's a habit we have spent 3 years reinforcing in that environment. I agree, and it goes both ways.

Goodness gracious, have you never seen two dogs having a really good rumble? It is the most blissfully joyful experience, and it puts a smile on my face every time. The creativity my dogs display when they play with each other is not replicated anywhere else in their lives, including when I'm shaping them! They learn all sorts of things in play, and there is nothing on this earth I can do with them that is more fun to them than wrestling with each other. Except maybe playing with the flirt pole for Erik. He's nuts about that thing. I wouldn't have it any other way. Seeing that pure joy, laughing when they do something unexpected or outrageously obnoxious to each other, being incredulous when they use a behaviour they learnt in training to evade a pursuer, and just enjoying watching them in full flight... Why WOULDN'T you want that?? It's my greatest joy in owning two dogs. I don't know what I'd ever do if I had dogs that didn't love to rumble. It would be boring.

I would rather not HAVE to allow my dog to defend himself in a dog park, and truly, we go there everyday and I have only failed in that aim maybe 3 times. Little Erik doesn't like it when dogs bite his face, particularly when he's running. He doesn't just up and defend himself the moment it happens. He first tries telling the other dog that he is not having fun. I don't wait around for him to escalate. I WANT him to tell other dogs nicely that he isn't happy, because he's a super proactive dog and if he learns that his polite signals get ignored he won't bother using them in the future. So we make sure those signals get honoured one way or another and then we don't have to stress about staffy mixes who like to play bitey face on the run and take offence when they are told to quit it, or Vallhunds that have decided they need to drive off all staffy mixes before they try to play bitey face with him on the run. Honestly, if you have control of your dog, and you can read them well, then you have loads of control of the situation right there. Tilt the odds in your favour further by picking a walk-through park that is unfenced, and if your dog is also very well socialised, they can take care of most situations themselves anyway. Occasionally someone will bring a dog to the park that just runs at the nearest dog and attacks it. You hear about it, because everyone warns everyone else. I've heard about 3 incidences in the last 3 years that have resulted in injuries. It's always someone new that hasn't been seen before and they usually disappear soon after. So-called 'reactive' dogs are not a problem unless your dog can't pick them and you can't pick them. They won't do anything until they feel threatened, and they DO give warning before they fly off the handle. My dogs know what they look like and leave them alone. I don't even have to tell them most of the time. I think the very notion that a dog can have too high a value for its own species is ludicrous. You wouldn't say your kid likes other kids too much. I think more likely the problems lie in training and conditioning. The dogs we meet at the park that follow us and ignore their owner because they want to play with our dogs, what do their owners do with them? They are not even throwing a ball for them. They bring them to the park and let them loose, then have to keep running back to grab their collar and drag them away. They don't reward their dogs, so why would their dogs want to spend time with them? My dogs adore other dogs, but they have a play and then come back to check in because it's what they've been trained to do. My dogs recall away from a game because we spent so much time training it. My dogs behave in ways they have been conditioned to. If I have a problem with their focus around other dogs, it wouldn't be that their value for their own species is too high. It would be that they have not been conditioned to pay attention to me when I ask for it properly.

Lordee, I am glad my stint in retail was so short.

Aww, that blows. I'm trying to convince my local club to let me join and then kind of attend classes at the periphery and do my own thing. It's a big ask, I think. Seriously, if you're going to do your own thing, why do you need a class environment? The class environment is the whole point. Why would I join a club if I didn't want access to a class environment? Besides which, I think it's only fair to join the club if I want to use the grounds at the same time as them and take advantage of the controlled situation they have created. You sure are a stickybeak sometimes. Oh really? Well, I should probably just forget about it, then, huh?

Aww, that blows. ;) I'm trying to convince my local club to let me join and then kind of attend classes at the periphery and do my own thing. It's a big ask, I think.

Really? The service in Australia is friendlier and better than in any other country hubby and I have been to. Our experience is that Aussies complain a lot more than other places too. But I agree, definitely write a complaint. I would. I didn't say Australian service was bad, I said Australian's for some reason do not make complaints....well not to the right people....to each other but not to the company. Have you never worked in retail? ;) I spent 6 months there and grew increasingly annoyed with the people who knew exactly how to complain. Ask for the manager, kick up a stink, they will give you things for free. I would say, "Do we really need their patronage that badly that we reward them every time they make a fuss? We're teaching them to be pains in the butt!" Some people just love to complain. I think Australians complain more than they complement. Some vets I get on better with than others. Some of them that I don't get on so well with are just not in the habit of telling clients what they are doing and why. I'm learning that if I speak up we all get along better and I get the kind of service I want. I think a lot of it is just accepting that different people have different styles and putting in that little extra effort to understand folks you don't automatically get along with. We go to a large clinic and I definitely have my favourite vets there that I ask to see. One of them spent half a consult asking me about my PhD project. I was more than happy to talk about it! She apologised for bringing it up in a consult and explained that she was really interested in research, and I warned her that if she got me going we could be here all night. Fortunately, there was no one booked in after me. My favourite Canberra vet would chat nearly constantly and it was hard to get a word in edge-wise. When you did, he would often start answering your query before you had actually finished making it, so you'd have to ask again because he was going off on a tangent. I sometimes found consults with him a little exhausting, but I didn't mind putting up with his personality quirks because I really liked him as a vet. I guess what I'm trying to say is that you're not wrong to be cross about what happened, but some people make faux pas without realising it and a formal complaint maybe isn't necessary. That's just my take on it, though. I'd still avoid going back to that particular vet.

Just a note of caution for site-specific training, one of my dogs is HIGHLY routine-driven. He is notorious for latching on to cues that are almost invisible to us and becoming convinced that he knows exactly how things go from here. It's really hard to dislodge him from these habits once they form, and inevitably they spread like cancer into other areas. For example, we had to take a break from agility training because he'd come to identify agility as being all about food, and then that bled into any activity that was ever paired with practising things we would practise in agility, and then that became linked with any place where we did any activity that had ever been paired with practising agility... I made a move on it just 3 weeks after it first started and it took me months to bring him back around to use my cues alone to figure out what we were doing. I'm kinda getting the hang of it now and learning how to make my cues the only dependable ones, but it is really hard work for me, who is a pretty routine person myself. Too much specificity for Erik leads to inflexibility.

Just so it's clear, I don't expect them to learn to deal with inappropriate canine behaviour instantly. Both my boys have built their social skills over 2 years. It will probably be longer for Erik as he's a slow maturer. I assess each situation as it comes and decide if we're in or out based on what I think our dogs will do, the risk inherent in the behaviour of the other dog, and the degree of control we have. I have aborted a few times when the lack of control is cause for concern. There's no sense trying to work through something when you think your dog might get jumped and all your careful work will be ruined anyway. If I want to teach them non-aggressive coping strategies, they HAVE to be well under threshold and I have to be sure I can keep them there. Both my boys have not appeared to struggle with this in the slightest. I thought they might learn a warped notion of what was polite canine behaviour from exposure to impolite dogs early, but they didn't. They just learnt to be tolerant of it. Agreed. For all that the one my mother went to with her timid pup probably made matters worse, I'm still big on puppy pre school. She went back to that one with her next puppy, determined that she wouldn't let them push her into anything. They had changed their policy significantly, having found out from somewhere that forcing pups can have a really awful outcome. I took it that neutralisation aimed to leave a dog with a neutral value towards dogs and socialisation aimed for a positive value.

The same thing happened to my mum.

Although PF and I disagree on aspects of socialisation, it is at least on my part very respectfully. In my mind, I try to be realistic about what my dogs are likely to encounter in their lives and socialise my dogs to those things, places, and situations. I live in suburbia. There are a limited number of places I can take my dogs for an off leash run. Sooner or later they are going to have to get used to dog park/dog beach madness, dogs that don't know how to talk dog, and dogs that have no idea how to behave. It would be lovely if I could choose to only expose my dogs to other dogs that are polite, considerate, predictable members of the canine population, but it just doesn't work like that. But that doesn't mean I have to avoid all the places I'd like to go with my dogs. My dogs learnt how to deal with the playground bullies, social retards, and all the rest along with the model canine citizens. I consider it an important part of their socialisation because if I want to take them to the river or the beach and have fun with them outside the yard, they WILL meet these types so I may as well make sure they'll be as comfortable as possible with them. I have to say it makes my heart swell with pride when they deftly turn a bully aside, gently coax a timid dog to play, avoid a dog that starts fights, and defuse tense situations with an easy "I'm no threat" signal. They are nearly always comfortable and confident no matter what is going on around them. I can take them anywhere and even if it's packed with dogs they are completely fine. Having said that, it didn't just happen. I took a lot of care to gently introduce them as puppies and have always closely monitored their behaviour so I could move them before they got overly anxious or otherwise distressed. I do a lot of training with them when they are off leash in dog parks, and they didn't earn the right to make their own decisions about dogs until they got better than me at reading them. I ever so carefully let them make mistakes when I believed they were safe mistakes and guided them towards better decisions and rewarded them whenever they chose non-aggressive coping strategies. Well, I did with Erik. Kivi hasn't realised there are aggressive coping strategies yet. I listened to them and never forced them into interactions and got them out when they were saying they wanted to quit but the other dog wasn't paying attention. I see puppies in dog parks and routinely cringe about it because they are kind of tossed in on a Saturday afternoon and the owners are so dismayed that the puppy is screaming and trying to run away that they never go back again. I figure, if you want to use dog parks, there's no real reason why you shouldn't, but there are some good rules of thumb to follow. I don't want to hijack PF's thread, and she'll probably disagree with some of my rules! Suffice to say dog parks are dynamic places and every situation is different. If you are not confident reading the situations you will probably not enjoy being there.

Emmy got car sickness and then it developed to anxiety towards the car. She use to drool walking towards my car.. now she just drools when we are in the car. We put her in a crate and she is ok now. There was A LOT of training for her to be ok with the car. Yep, that's where we're at at the moment too. Halo won't go near the car (just walking past it without me having to drag her this morning was amazing) and she's drooling from the instant she's sitting in the car. She gets her dinner in the car every night now to try and get her over it. Kivi started to go that way, but we managed to nip it in the bud with TTouch. A 5-minute massage once he was settled in his bed with sides on the back seat and he was nice and relaxed. The bed with sides prevented him from sliding around and so he didn't get sick. The TTouch dealt with the anxiety so he didn't make himself tense. I think when they are tense they slide around jarringly, which makes them feel more sick. Maybe. If I'd had a Thundershirt at the time it would have been a good thing to try.

Erik has always cuddled the same way. He cuddles with the same enthusiasm he approaches everything else in life. It makes me laugh, but sometimes it's really full on. He will squirm all over you and can't seem to decide if he wants you to stroke his head, rub his chest, hug him, or let him lick you into oblivion. He seems to change his mind every second and a half. But once he settles down a bit he just likes to spoon with you or curl up against or on your legs. He does still lick a lot, but he's just so cute. Kivi likes to press as much of him as possible against as much of you as possible. I have woken up with my arms around him before. No idea how he does it, but he can somehow sneak up onto the bed in the dead of the night and settle down with his back against my front without me waking up. He then puts his head on my shoulder and makes happy grunty sounds. He plants kisses on your face every now and then when he's feeling particularly lovey dovey. He often feels lovey dovey, I think. Every time I put Erik in the car he waits for me to lean over to attach the tether and licks my face. I can see in his eyes he's going to do it. His kisses aren't too wet and yucky usually, though. He also likes to rest his head on your legs or belly. He snuggles Erik as well. He'll put a paw over him and nuzzle his ears very tenderly.

What about this one: http://www.amazon.com/Strategies-Tactics-B...ref=pd_sim_b_43 I just like it 'cause Melissa Bateson recommends it. It's not really a learning theory text, though.

Hm, that sounds kinda familiar. When I first started agility with Erik, classes consisted of me constantly giving him things to do. The moment I stopped he would start barking hysterically at the other dogs doing fun stuff. It was exhausting trying to keep up with him for an hour, but with lots of down-stays between exercises with near constant rewards, he slowly made progress and I was able to lower the reward rate a bit. It helped that he also matured a little. I have quiet training things to do with him when he needs some direction but also needs to calm down some. I get him in a down and sit on the ground with him and we do targeting, paw tricks, husbandry behaviours, LAT, work on some simple discrimination training, like left and right or something like that. I've found sometimes I need to change what we're doing frequently to keep his attention, but once he settles down a bit, this kind of thing gets him in the zone and he is very focused and eager to learn new things. Like Aidan said, we don't really just leave him to do what he likes. We give him lots of direction and make sure he's always got a task to focus on.

Have you tried the off switch game? Here's an example of it that also shows breathing. There's been some talk on the CU list lately about cueing a dog to take a deep breath and this video came up to show what was meant.

Why is your answer no? Is it somehow impossible to use a clicker to teach a dog to switch between 'drives', or to respond to cues with a high degree of reliability? A lot of people are using it for just that. Control doesn't come from the willingness to use corrections. It comes from sound conditioning and clear cues. You can do that just as well with a clicker as you can with anything else. The OP has already ruled out punishments. Sounds to me like they know when to apply the carrot and when to apply the stick. Just because they have made a different decision than you might have does not mean they don't know. I have a dog I would NEVER punish. He is just too gentle. He is not confident about offering behaviours in the first place, so if I punish him I'm only going to hurt my ability to train new behaviours. Plus it's just not needed. He has a beautiful fast extinction curve and I've never seen anything spontaneously recover. Oh, except trying to convince us he's sleeping on the bed tonight.

Do you have playing fields or similar large, open area where you can see who's coming when they are a long way off and have lots of time before they reach you? Would she lose it if she was in the car and a dog walked past? Do you know of anywhere that is fenced or partially fenced with wire so she can see approaching dogs but there's still a barrier so if you move away from the fence the approaching dog can't go directly to her? Or perhaps just pick a spot on your normal walking route where you have good visibility and loiter there. Then you can cross a road if you need to. Assuming crossing a road would get you enough distance. We came across an aggressive little dog on the footpath once and the owner called out to stay away as it would bite. I said we'd cross the road and the owner was very apologetic, but the dog still went nuts as we passed. Despite my dogs being calm, oddly enough. My boys generally only react if they get startled or feel like they can't avoid the problem dog. That's why I like lots of visibility. They have learnt to avoid trouble and are usually pretty chilled about it if they get some warning and a chance to avoid it. One of the benefits of LAT is that it gives you a chance to prepare your dog for something scary happening so they aren't so startled and therefore better able to cope. Perhaps it's not a bad idea to get into the habit of cueing LAT as you're rounding a corner?

Erik's breeder (SDDU) explained to me that SVs don't have back problems because their rib cage is elongated so there is no part of the back that is supporting more weight than that of a normal dog. I had a closer look at Erik and measured the distance between the end of his ribs and his loins and then made the same measurements in some other dogs that are more square and she was right! The distance between the end of his ribs and his loins was the same as a more square dog of approximately the same size. SDDU knows an awful lot about Vallhunds. Also LisaJ from Akka, who lurks on DOL, is another fountain of knowledge. Peta from Barahwolfe in NZ is also on DOL on occassion, but I've forgotten her screen name.

I started agility with Erik. He's fast, drivey, and nimble as a cat. We know another Vall that is also in agility training. Both are on the drivier end and so maybe not naturals at therapy as well. To me Erik is a bit highly strung to enjoy therapy, but again, that's him. There would be Valls much better suited to it. My mother has one that would be a wonderful therapy dog, but she tried flyball with him and he was very resistant to doing it quickly. As far as herding goes, I would bet that there is plenty of herding instinct floating around in Australian SVs. I have heard there are a few on small hobby farms that do a decent job moving livestock. SDDU would know if there are any trialling.

I said * perhaps* corrections don't make sense to you and you don't think they work. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth and definitely not trying to be rude I guess I just misinterpreted your earlier posts about being cautious about giving leash corrections (due to previous experience) as being not confident in giving them. I apologise for the confusion , I know it is hard to convey tone through the internet but I definitely didn't mean to be rude It's okay, I just find myself getting increasingly surly about these sorts of discussions. I knew you didn't mean to be rude, but sometimes I think if I let someone know they are treading the line they might genuinely care and avoid doing it in the future. I would! I suspect some forum denizens somewhere in cyberspace hate my guts because I unknowingly crossed a line once and they think I was being deliberately nasty. And then I kept doing it because I didn't know. Anyway, I could have been a bit more polite about it. Sorry! Incidentally, the possibility of unwanted associations is just one reason why I don't use leash corrections. Mostly I'm just a clicker trainer and don't see suppressing behaviour as generally being very compatible with my goal of having dogs that are confident offering behaviours. I look for solutions that support that over-arching goal and usually find them.

In my mind it's worth just putting him on leash and taking him out to the grassed area when he often does #2s and walk him around a bit. If he starts to go, say "number 2s" and when he's done, throw a party and give him a reward. It doesn't take long to condition them so that even just being on the right spot can prompt them to go. And if you say "number 2s" you can prompt it. We have just recently been doing this with one of our dogs. First thing in the morning is a good bet. My boys both nearly always do #2s not long after they get up in the morning. Keep moving any that end up in the wrong spot to the right spot. Assuming you don't end up with a mountain of poop. Just one or two is enough.

I tried to read the supporting research, but the links are broken. Do you have working links to them?

Can anyone recommend a good learning theory text book/hand book? I need some kind of go-to reference to guide my decisions on my training program for my PhD.

Being cautious of using punishment is not the same as lacking in confidence. I have applied punishments very effectively myself. I know exactly when I want to use them and I expect strong results within 3-5 reps. I have not used leash corrections on my current dogs because I walk them on harnesses specifically to force myself to stop doing it. I had some awful habits when I crossed over from traditional training. I'm not disputing that leash corrections may be very effective. All I said was that theoretically, leash corrections can act to increase the intensity of an aggressive response and therefore declaring it an old wives' tale is a bold statement. Punishments make perfect sense to me. I don't know where I have EVER said anywhere on the entire internet or even to positive trainer friends that I would rule out using them or that I think they don't work. Do you? Because if you don't, you're putting words in my mouth, which I consider more rude than curious. :p