corvus

No, you take dogs to an off lead park to socialise, play, exercise AND train. We do nearly all our training in off lead dog parks and we rarely do anything with them that doesn't include training sessions. That's why they are actually more reliable off leash than on. ;) They spend a lot more time training off leash than on. IME dogs that mark people's legs tend to be a touch overwhelmed and don't really know what appropriate behaviour is for their current environment. I'm not sure if you said in your original post how long you've been taking him to the dog park? Is it a recent thing, or have you been doing it for months? Is he more excited at the park now than he was when you started taking him? We have a rule that no one gets to be off leash until they are calm enough that they will turn on a pinhead and come back if they are called mere moments after they have been released. They MUST be able to perform a simple behaviour like down or sit and be focused on us. And if we take leashes off when they are in a sit or down they do not break that position until they are released. I think this is super important to keep dogs from racing off like hooligans, getting over stimulated, and then that's when you see problem behaviour that is hard to control because they are not paying attention to you. I regularly call my dogs back a moment after they are released to give them a treat, then release them again. It helps condition them to pay attention to us even when they are moving away from us and quite excited. We work on teaching our dogs that opportunities for reinforcement come from us any time, any place. And so they reserve a little piece of their attention for us, waiting for those opportunities. If this were my dog, my first priority would be to work on lowering arousal at the dog park and installing some rules about off leash privileges. My second priority would be a solid leave it or a recall or both. Only second because you say he's reasonably good about recall when he's not excited. So you can improve that, but getting him calm will set you up for success. I'm coming to like the whiplash turn. I'm using "Hey!". Whenever they hear it and orient to me they get rewarded. It pops out whenever pups are up to no good and I don't tend to poison it like I do their names.

Maybe they are both left-pawed. Laterality can be a powerful influence over behaviour. All you need is a slight preference to begin with for a habit to form and change it into a strong preference. Example: Both dogs are left-biased and so both tend to drift to the left crate in the absence of any motivation to pick one over the other. Both enjoy their time in the left crate, reinforcing the choice. And a habit is born. Or, one of the dogs is left-biased and so drifts to the left crate in the absence of any motivation to pick one over the other, and the other dog prefers the warmth and smell of a crate that has been used by a family member. Even if both dogs kind of prefer their own space, that's not to say what one has used is probably better than one no one has used. People do the same thing. Ever been in a cue at the public toilets only to realise that one cubicle is vacant and has been the whole time you were in the cue? A quick inspection often finds there is no reason for anyone not to use it. Social animals just gather information through what others are doing. It's sensible to assume someone who has been there before you knows things about it that you don't and so you follow their lead, even if their decision was based on nothing more than a vague spatial preference they aren't even conscious of.

Erik says "REALLY???"

Mindy is a Lab. I reckon that counts for something.

If he's panting sometimes there's a good chance he's anxious. I appreciate that it's difficult when he has to go out in the car regularly to make a difference with counter-conditioning. IMO you just take a dozen steps forwards before you have to take 2 steps back. I've CC one of my dogs to some regular procedures he was deeply unhappy about and I just kind of approached it like it was a see-saw. To make sure the positives outweighed the negatives I just really hammered the positives. Several times a day, short sessions with loads of rewards. It might take a while given he seems to have a long history with anxiety around the car. Have you thought about some DAP to help calm him or even some medication? Vet behaviourists are very expensive, but perhaps they could give you something to give him before you go in the car to calm him down so you can retrain. Good luck.

Are you working with Byron when he's sub-threshold? Desensitising is not desensitising if he's reacting to the other dog by vocalising, lunging, even staring at it. Every time he barks or whines or stares he's saying that he is very anxious. Every time he sees this other dog and gets anxious, he is forming a habit. You run the risk of sensitising him to the other dog instead of desensitising. Have you read Control Unleashed or are you just using a version of LAT you've picked up somewhere? It is vitally important that these exercises be done sub-threshold. It is all to easy to use this as a management tool once the dog is already over-aroused, and for some dogs you might even get away with it, but for others you will teach them to react more instead. I know, because I have one of each! Secondly, are you sure that Bella is correcting Byron? I think there's a chance that instead she is becoming over-aroused by Byron's behaviour and redirecting all her pent-up energy and anxiety on him. If that's happening it can be a very slippery slope. Every time she redirects on Byron she feels better. It works for her and she will keep doing it. With Byron already aroused you have on your hands a recipe for disaster. Regardless of the reason for it, you need to stop it from happening. That does not mean punishing it after it happens or redirecting them afterwards. It means preventing it from happening in the first place. If that means you split them up then that's what you do.

Thanks KtB. ;) The more rewards the better. Gives you flexibility and teaches your dog flexibility. Aussielover, there's an explanation for the pattern you're seeing in affective neuroscience. It's fair to expect that whatever drive is 'dominant' can change from moment to moment, seeing as drives in their natural state push an animal into action to satisfy needs and needs change. And Corvus is going to shut up before she upsets anyone.

Looks like a fun site, SK! :D

I wouldn't rule out him feeling sick or even in pain in the car. I remember an episode of Barking Mad with a dog that wouldn't settle in the car and they found out that he had hip problems and found the movement quite uncomfortable. It's a possibility. Does he have something to lie on or in that doesn't slide around? Does he whine or pant in the car?

Some dogs you can't just chuck in because they become sensitised to the car rather than desensitised. My older dog was like this as he often got carsick. He'd get very tense and anxious about the car, presumably because he often felt sick in it so naturally he developed an aversion to the car. The key to success with him was easing the anxiety and carsickness. We set up a small bed with sides for him on the back seat so that he wouldn't slide around. And we did some TTouch to settle him into the car and make him feel relaxed before we took him anywhere. These things combined made a huge difference. About a year later he suddenly discovered there was a world going by outside the car window and now he sits up watching it a lot. We never would have imagined when he was a few months old that he would ever enjoy car rides.

No. That's the eventual plan. I'm in no rush. Yes. ADAA for agility. Is my opinion relevant yet? :rolleyes: I love how you're allowed to start a side discussion about classes and trainers (which I'm not interested in, so ignored - see how easy and painless that was for everyone?), but if I start a side discussion on why people like the sport they like, suddenly I'm asked to validate my right to an opinion! Who cares about my opinion? I'm asking about other people's opinions. My views only come up because I'm trying to understand why I don't see things the same as other people. But hey, if people find this discussion threatening or something I'm happy to leave it be. I'm not invested in it. I was just curious.

No point. I'm just exploring ideas. Really? So, a heel has no meaning outside of obedience? Or a solid down, sit, or SFE is not useful outside the obedience ring? An out-of-sight stay is meaningless unless it's to prove your dog can do it? When I was training Kivi's rear-end awareness it was very hard for him, but we plugged away together and his confidence really improved noticeably the more body aware and balanced he became. I think I found that more pleasurable than the finished product. Now he can do things he never used to be able to do and none of it is related to obedience, but it all boosts his confidence and makes him easier to shape. Erik learnt very solid sits and some circle work in foundation agility. We definitely use that outside of dog sports. I do a lot of pointing and telling him to do something in that direction. I think it's very relevant to everyday life. The more I use it the more uses I find for it. Even jumping onto or over whatever I point at is useful in everyday life. The fun is in being creative, discovering new things to learn, and being surprised by your dog's skills. The challenge is in picking something that stretches both your training skills and your dog's performance skills and plugging away at it until it meets your standards. I don't think it's really any different to dog sports except for the freedom to be creative.

I like heelwork well enough. :p If I disliked obedience I wouldn't bother with it. I just thought we were having a conversation about which we like better and why. I already said what I like about obedience. Now I'm saying what I don't like about it. Working towards detailed criteria doesn't bother me in the slightest. I think it's bizarre that this doesn't translate to obedience and I'm interested to know why other people prefer to work towards detailed criteria that are set for them. I am not sure I understand why being competitive should mean that it doesn't matter what the criteria are or whether they make sense. It's like we're afraid to say that they don't make sense, or that if we did say it we'd be accused of not liking obedience or not understanding it or some such. I thought I was inviting people to make sense of it, but instead folks won't quite say that they agree, but instead steer the conversation to why they don't care. I think that's interesting. I'm intrigued why being competitive should mean they don't care if what they are doing makes sense or not. Or more to the point, why they prefer to work towards criteria that are set for them. Do you ever decide to train something you think will be hard just for the challenge of training it?

I saw these drastically reduced and thought they looked like good candidates for some doggy balance work and foot targeting. http://www.badbacks.com.au/shop/product/503/265/togu-senso-hedgehog

But that rules out every form of dog sport, because at the end of the day, you are working in whatever "restraints" and criteria are provided within the rules of that sport. I am quite a naturally competitive person so I actually like having a set criteria to work towards and within. That is all part of the challenge for me, and I'd suggest, for many other people who enjoy training and competing in dog sports. This wasn't a poll about whether you enjoy agility or obedience or doing your own thing, it was a poll about those who like dog sports and which, out of two options, they prefer. Well, I'm not going to be penalised in agility if my dog jumps quite high over a jump excepting if it makes him slower. And contacts keep dogs safe. I answered the poll with agility for two reasons, because I find the actual behaviours more fun to watch, train, and perform, and because there's a bit of leeway that means I don't have to be so meticulous if I don't feel like it. I can just have fun watching my dog be fast and active, and being fast and active with him, which is something I get a kick out of. But that's not to say I don't get a kick out of some of the stuff we do in obedience exercises. A lot of the criteria I'm fine with and would choose for myself if given that freedom, but some of it seems stupid and paying attention to details that seem pointless to me is tedious. Because it's fun! :D That in itself is a reason to do something. If you find perfectly straight sits fun, then it's not pointless. OH doesn't like dog sports, but loves tricks because they make him smile. Therefore, they are not pointless.

We joke that Kivi collects things for the pixies. Some of the things he collects are pixie artefacts. He is obsessed with marbles and anything else that looks like a tiny baby ball. He spent 30 minutes one day staring longingly at my Malteesers and making a move on them every few minutes. Tiny balls are carefully collected and lovingly nuzzled, mouthed, and cuddled against his fur. This is because they are pixie eggs and as a friend to the pixies it his responsibility to look after them. Berries, cherry tomatoes, and any other small, round piece of food is to be carted around until he gets the chance to give it to the pixies, who apparently only eat spherical food and there is currently a famine in pixieland. Every strange thing he does can be attributed to something the pixies told him. He does a lot of strange things. One day we realised that what he thinks are pixies are actually slaters. Our dogs are much more fun when we filter them through our twisted imaginations.

It seems a bit bizarre and pointless to me. I taught Erik heel position when he was a puppy and thought it was a good exercise for me in precision training. However, since then I am finding plenty of things to be precise about that are more challenging for both me and my dogs, look cooler and make me smile like a straight sit never will. I guess that I think, why pursue arbitrary criteria that I only care about because I'm told I have to care about them when I could pursue arbitrary criteria that I care about because I made them up? I'm having a lot of trouble communicating this, but I guess in the end I'm left feeling like obedience doesn't have much to offer me except a way to measure my training if I decided to trial and a reason to create more secondary reinforcers.

Well... That was basically my situation when I got my first dog, only it was my father who I had to beg permission off and he was resentful and held me responsible for every misdemeanour imagined or real. "Your dog dug a hole in my lawn." "Look what your dog did to my hose." "Your stupid dog put a hole in my thong." He was constantly at me to take her for a walk even though I walked her a lot, and for a long time I felt like every time she did something wrong I had to do something about it. However, was it worth it? Absolutely. A thousand times over. And he came to love her and missed her terribly when I moved out and took her with me. Incidentally, I got permission to get a dog by begging for a year, showing him I could and would find the time to look after a dog, and in the end, turning on the water works and just pleading. It was a hard slog, but I proved it wasn't just a passing phase and I was very committed.

Well, I dunno, I do have a dog that hangs around in heel position like a shadow and there's no question he is happy and enjoying himself. I am chuffed with his tight turns considering he started out a very clumsy kind of dog. I love the big grins he gives me when he is doing obedience behaviours and I have fun watching him have fun with it. But it still doesn't exactly fill me with enthusiasm. Lately I've been teaching Erik fun things like weaving through my legs, walking backwards around me and up stairs, figure 8s around my legs, jumping over anything I point to and say "Over!", putting his front paws on my knee, jumping onto things I point at and say "Up!" and getting him to beg or down while balancing on tricky surfaces or objects. To me, this is Having Fun With My Dog. It's spontaneous and creative and high energy and we go so fast a lot of the time that Erik will come up with his own things and it kind of turns into structured, stylised play. Erik is WILD about this game. Tell him to go and play and he barks at me furiously. I actually have to be careful how I end a session so I don't overload him with frustration. I am particular about criteria and we are always tightening up his accuracy, speed, and understanding of the cues. Obedience is kind of the equivalent for Kivi because he's a different dog. However, I find it kind of rigid and arbitrary. I guess I'm an ad-libber. I value flexibility and creativity and I don't know how to have fun without it.

We've had a sealed bottle of Mountain Dew taken off the bench. It was hidden away somewhere and later unsealed on the bedroom carpet while we were sound asleep. A whole house of floorboards to mess up and it had to be eaten in the one carpeted room. Took me a while to figure out why my feet felt sticky the next morning. Reminds me of a field trip in Mexico where our attempts to cool some beers in a small spring fell flat when a bear found them, pulled them all out, punctured the cans and drank half the beer. Fortunately we did not meet said bear. They are notorious for wreaking havoc through sheer curiosity. A curious bear managed to pull the plug on a reservoir of a couple of thousand litres of water, flooding a small portion of the property and setting the owners back months in water accumulation. Met one property manager who was forever grumbling about bears that get into the satellite on a remote hilltop and pull the battery out and roll it down the hill, causing everyone to lose internet and phone access until he could drive out there to replace it. It was pointed out to us that if we kept so much as a tube of toothpaste or some lip gloss in our tents, there was a good chance the bears would come in looking for them.

We take the good with the bad. You don't get to have a genius dog without also having to deal with that genius 24/7. Erik is currently in the kitchen barking at the kitchen tidy and poking it furiously with his nose. Goodness knows what he thinks he's doing. He came to tell me loudly and I told him to go away. He's just come to tell all about it again. I take it he's bored. Which means everything in the house is imperilled and I probably won't get much work done until I give in and take him out for a run, play and training session. What the heck is he doing in there?? Obviously I should stop it before he tips the kitchen tidy over and learns how easy that was.

SWF isn't a breed... unless you want to over generalize all big non fluffy breeds into BNF ;) SWF is a description of MANY breeds and crosses (well mainly crosses now is what you see on the street). You do realise this whole thread is about broad generalisations? Just making sure... I have met a lot of nice little fluffy dogs. Most came straight from the pound and who knows what breeds they are. I don't care. I am impressed by a little dog that will play with my lapphund just as happily and confidently as with my little vallhund.

Here you go, I found the full paper: http://www.awesomedogs.ca/pdfs/Do_dogs_seek_help.pdf

That's because most people haven't met a Swedish Vallhund. ;) They've had a few thousand years on ACDs to hone their intelligence. :D

Your perceptions are not quite right. BCs were mentioned in negative terms and although there has been some discussion to the negative of GSDs many of the posts were in positive terms. Better?