corvus

When did this become flame Corvus for daring to have differing views about dog aggression? This is a hypothetical thread. It is not about my dogs or my methods. The topic is, can you train a dog to stop showing signs of aggression without fixing the aggression itself. I used my dogs as examples only. And Poodlefan, it quite clearly did work. It was the other dog that did the damage, not Penny. Penny's scraps have never resulted in any injuries. Don't pass judgements on me and my methods when all you know is a couple of things gleaned from a post not even about my dogs and my methods. How rude. If you want to argue the matter further, take it to PM. Everyone else, can we stop flaming me and actually stick to the topic, which, I repeat, is HYPOTHETICAL. My dogs are no longer under discussion and I will stop using them as examples seeing as it has caused so much trouble. I'll use my hare instead (where's the devil smiley-face, goddamit?) In fact, perhaps I've got all the answers I need and I'll slink off and once again slap myself for asking a potentially controversial question for the sake of interesting discussion. It's not very interesting when everyone is just telling me I'm wrong and stating facts without backing it up with anything. No wait, I'm not done yet. Can those of you who do want to control all their dogs interactions with other dogs think of a time when they haven't been able to for some reason and what has happened as a result?

Really? So you are saying that your dog never caused a fight yet managed to get involved more than one serious one? And you find that acceptable? Yes really. She has never CAUSED a fight with air snaps or growling. Air snaps and growling are a way to signal to another dog that you will start a fight if they don't heed you. It is also a way of signalling how motivated you are to take things to the next level. They don't cause fights in of themselves unless you've got a dog that refuses to acknowledge that another dog might not like something. Got one of them at home, too. Needless to say, Penny doesn't make aggressive displays at him. She relies on people to protect her. Which they do. That is not to say she has never STARTED a fight. She has. When she has meant to. She has picked fights she shouldn't have and been beaten. She hasn't done that in a very long time. She accidentally caused fights with this crazy dog we had, but not with aggressive displays. I wish it had never happened but Penny was not at fault. She was the unfortunate victim. I could count the fights Penny has deliberately instigated on one hand, I think. I haven't tried it. It's been a long 13 years. She's not a warmonger, though. The only serious fights she's been involved in have been with one screwed up dog with no bite inhibition and abnormal responses that she lived with for 2 years. She's had a few other harmless scraps with dogs she has lived with. We've had a few near misses with territorial dogs charging, but that's hardly her fault. I don't remember any time she has picked a fight with a strange dog. It has probably happened, but if it has, it was a long time ago and it wasn't serious or I would remember it. Yes, I find this acceptable. Is it wrong to be okay with a dog that sometimes scraps harmlessly with other dogs she lives with? For the most part, she avoids conflict, which is why she doesn't tend to pick fights with strange dogs which is why I trust her judgement. Am I making myself clear yet? Have I ever been clear? Will I ever be clear?

Didn't I mention that dog that nearly took Penny's eye out?? That war of attrition went on for months. It sure turned me off getting another rescue and I will never again pair two dogs the same sex and similar weight no matter what the breeds. As I've mentioned, I actually think leaving my dogs to it IS the best thing I can do to avoid dog fights. Because I don't know the other dogs and what they are saying, but my dogs do know what they are saying. Even when they're weird and are saying two conflicting things. Am I really going to have to sit here and defend myself all day? There are always exceptions. My mother has a dog that walks around with her head in the clouds and doesn't deal with tension very well. I would never trust her to work things out with strange dogs (although I understand even she is much better at it than she looks), but my dogs are sensible and I know them and I am confident they can be trusted. Cosmolo, I really am not going to sit here and list all the exceptions to every generalisation I've ever made and am yet to make. I have pet rabbits! I am hardly going to enjoy watching dogs rip them apart! What kind of person do you think I am??

Ah, but she has been doing it for nearly 13 years and it has NEVER caused a fight. Why not? Because she doesn't do it when it would. She knows when it would and I don't. I repeat, NEVER has it started a fight. I couldn't say how many times she's done it, but I've seen her freeze and keep her eyes down and her lips firm around her teeth instead of snapping, and I've seen her dive behind my legs instead of snapping, and I've seen her turn her face away instead of snapping. She knows when it's a bad idea. I've had my heart in my mouth before trying to get between her and a much larger dog that looks like it means business before she could snap at it and failed only to see the dog go "Oh! Fair enough" and back off and leave her alone. I know some dogs would fight instead. And apparently she knows it too, because she's never started a fight that way and she doesn't do it to every dog that gets in her space. Surely the best thing I can do to prevent a fight is relax and try to avoid dogs that look like trouble. Which we do. But if we can't always avoid said dogs and me seeing danger where there is none is just going to make everyone more tense and might actually create a dog fight where there wasn't going to be one.

Sure Poodlefan, this is no news to me. She does sometimes appreciate being tucked between my feet or behind me where she is safe. I generally do that if she's starting to snap. As much as I've been okay with it all in the past, it doesn't take much provocation, now, and I think it's unfair on the puppies to cop it from her when they are trying to talk to Kivi who is much more fun and friendly. So I am actually often fending off the youngsters for her these days. She barks at me about it all, but at least she's not snapping at everyone. Things have changed, but that hasn't changed my beliefs. The dogs still tell me when they could do with a hand and until then I often leave them to it. Penny doesn't tell me as clearly anymore, but fortunately 13 years does teach you something about your dog, even if you were a teenager for most of those years. I wouldn't trust anyone else with her precisely because I know best when she would be happier if I took care of things. I always think it goes without saying that you have to be flexible with animals, but I guess it doesn't go without saying. So consider this me acknowledging that you always have to be ready to change how you work with animals. Of course I don't expect my 13 year old, partially blind, arthritic corgi to behave the same way she did 5 years ago, and nor do I expect her judgement to be as good as ever. Sometimes she thinks standing in the middle of a pile of youngsters and growling at them all is a good plan, when it really isn't and you don't have to be good at body language to figure that one out. It's totally unfair for a youngster to cop it from her because another youngster pushed him into her when he was trying desperately to back-pedal before she has a go at him, so I don't let it happen if I can help it. There are always lots of exceptions. Let's not talk about them because they are a bit boring. I don't want to be here all day listing the times when I do step in and protect my dogs or take charge or whatever makes people happy.

You speak good sense. I think perhaps I've misrepresented Penny and the way we work together. I think there were times I should have been more pro-active, particularly when she was recovering from really bad dog fights at home and was feeling particularly nervous around strange dogs. That's when I should have been a bit more protective and I wasn't. It's a credit to her personality that it didn't go all horribly wrong at that point. I am hoping that the new pup will become as good as Penny without the complete abandonment. I readily admit that I have let Penny down at times when she needed my leadership and she is not as trusting of me as she could be as a result. I think that I mended this to some extent in the last few years, but I don't think I will ever fix it completely. The downfalls of letting a kid raise a dog. I am hoping I never let Kivi down like that, but nor do I want to somehow tamper with his natural adeptness with other dogs for the sake of feeling in control. I like watching animals be everything they can be. That makes me hold back with the dogs and watch instead. I learn from them better if I'm not controlling every little thing they do. I'm curious to know how you undid the damage. Did you train warnings back in?

K9: really, how do you know he knows that, I am fascinated. When he was new to it all he stuck close to me and came back to me when he got worried. Whenever he did that, I made sure he remained unmolested until he was confident enough to leave my umbrella of safety again. I'm pleased by how he's handling other dogs at this point. He is good with all kinds of dogs, including ones that seem a bit cranky. He hasn't come running back to me for a while. I take this to mean he is confident enough without me. Good for him. K9: I really mean no offence when I say this but, you are the one that come here & started a thread on stopping aggressive signals & asking (simple) questions on correcting early signs of aggression, I would think that if you did your honours in dog behaviour & are fluent in dog & had dogs that didnt show the remoteest signs of aggression, you wouldn't be asking? Correct me if I am wrong. Sorry, you're wrong. I just brought my dogs into it as examples and it somehow ended up being about my dogs. I was having a similar discussion on another board started by someone else and was interested in widening the pool of experience a bit. I'm not bothered by aggressive signals when they don't escalate past air snapping. As far as Penny is concerned, that's the whole point of aggressive signals. As far as I'm concerned, she can say it better than I can. I do bring Penny in close if she's stubbornly standing in the middle of a pile of youngsters demanding that they all mind her like some old cranky lady. Then she can sit next to me and tell me all about it. She is happy as long as I say "Yes Penny, I know, they shouldn't be having fun" or some such. K9: why? do your dogs roam the streets with out you? K9: Maybe, but this is not a kid, its a dog, a pack animal that lives & dies by leadership & pack structure. Yeah well, each to their own. Like I said, I will be at your doorstep if it turns out I was wrong. I don't let the dogs roam the streets without me, but they are together in the yard a lot without me, and they are often approached by other dogs when we walk off leash and they are far enough away from me that I would have to run to get to them before the dog. No need to add that kind of energy to a situation. I just call for them to hold up and they stop and look at the approaching dog and know instantly better than I do how they need to behave. One time Penny was on leash and a dog came rushing towards her. I thought it looked like trouble so I started pulling Penny away, but Penny didn't think it looked like trouble and resisted me, so I stopped and let her do what she wanted to do, which was to stand stock still until this dog had checked her out and she could tell him she was no threat, but no push-over either. It made me realise I could never read a dog that well, so what business do I have dictating how she handles a situation she understands better than I do? Even if you do subscribe to pack theory, you might be aware that in wolf packs, leaders defer to others in the pack in different situations where they might know better than the leader. What business does any leader have taking charge of situations that another member understands better? Surely a bit of respect goes a long way? It's not like Penny NEVER needs me. She knows when she's out of her depth and she dives behind my legs and I take that as my cue to take charge. I also take charge when she is rooted to the spot in terror because a large dog is charging her, which has happened twice and led to me dumping check chains. When she's scared, she looks to me for direction and again I take charge. But if she's not looking at me for help, why do I need to interfere? Still waiting for Kivi to grow a backbone and so much as growl or look another dog in the eye. I don't know if we'll ever see it from him, but he's getting pretty good with other dogs. Thing is, if a dog can read a dog better than I can, then why shouldn't I take my cues from my dogs rather than the strange one? I know them pretty darn well, and they can tell me if I'm needed or not. Why should they need me every time? Why should someone who doesn't know dogs as well as they do be deciding when they need back-up? If a strange dog understands Penny's air-snap better then my body-blocking, and Penny is trying to snap but my legs are in the way, why shouldn't I step aside and let her snap? It buys her the space she wants much faster and more effectively than my legs can and it makes her feel pretty confident. Next time she meets a tense dog and I'm behind her, she doesn't need my legs to feel safe and makes a good decision instead of running back to me, which could be a bad decision. The more confident she is, the less she needs to snap, as we all know dogs respond to confidence, whether we believe in pack structure or not. Any animal responds to confidence. Anyway, one thing raising a wild hare taught me was that I might be pretty good at reading animal body language for a human, but I am still woefully bad at it next to an animal. Having a hare invent exaggerated gestures for you because you're so slow is a humbling experience and I've come to trust my animals more as a result. As long as I give them all the opportunities to learn safely how to read a variety of dogs and people and other animals, then I will be in a good position to quietly use them as a crutch in my decision-making, which I secretly think everyone should be doing because they know what they're doing better than we do. So this is off-topic, but how can I expect my dogs to respect my decisions if they obviously know better than me and always will when it comes to other dogs? They aren't silly. Penny knows I suck. She gives me that "oh god, how embarressing" look when I muscle in on her when she had it covered. Isn't it better to sneakily wait until they make a decision and then put a name to it and praise them? Or just develop a way to communicate to them so you can give them a heads up when a dog is coming in and let them know what you think of it and then continue letting them know what you think with voice suggestions ("wait", "okay", "gently" or whatever) as long as they are doing what you think they should be doing? I say "leave it" or "come away" a lot to Penny when we come across a dog that doesn't look friendly and she does, although I'm pretty sure she was going to all along, but at least I can praise her for something and make it into an "us" moment rather than a "her" moment. I've started doing the same thing with Kivi now that he's off my apron strings and I think there's something to be said for at least keeping a verbal commentary going so they have that connection with you while they be a dog. Anyway, Penny is happy to defer to me at other times and it's a bit early to tell with Kivi, but in my limited experience dogs don't really go with the one leader in all things deal. They know who is good at what and when it's a waste of time to disagree. I find it difficult to be worried about the behaviour or the relationship I have with a dog I've been with for nearly 13 years. No one knows her like I do.

K9: The concern with this isn't in the dogs behaviour but in yours, your dog is behaving this way as it is feeling undesirable pressure & is left to deal with this pressure (by the Alpha). This is a very common thing to occur but it usually ends up in a ggressive dog at some point. Well, this has been an area of heated discussion as well. I don't care to open the can of worms about dogs and hierarchies again, but suffice to say I have my reasons for disbelieving it. I also have my reasons for disagreeing with this assertion. The chief being whenever I've tried to step in Penny has stepped back around me as if to say "thanks, but no thanks". I'm afraid she thinks I'm a bit of an amateur. I cramp her style because she can read dogs about a zillion times better than I can (and I did my honours thesis on animal behaviour!). It is my suspicion that one of the reasons she is so freaking awesome is because I was a kid when she was a youngster and I didn't know the first thing about stepping in, so she had to work it out for herself. She did so without starting any fights accidentally until she met this dog with the screw loose. She is a master at defusing tense situations with strange dogs. I can only admire her and feel proud of her. Which brings me to my second main reason for letting my dogs deal with pressure. It is natural and they are capable of it. Kivi knows I am there for him whenever he makes an error in judgement, but truth be told he doesn't need me much. The dogs teach him everything he needs to know about dealing with pressure. The moment he looks for me I'm there, but if he's dealing with a tense moment on his own and doesn't feel like he needs me, then I'm a happy mum. After all, my greatest desire is for confident, well-balanced dogs that DON'T need me whenever there is a little tension. Kivi is an utter wuss and did need me a bit at the beginning, and if I ever had a more delicate or reactive dog I certainly would be helping them out more, but as long as they are safely in the realms of experiences that will teach but not traumatise I am fine with leaving them to it. I like to think I am fluent enough in dog to at least be able to tell when my own dogs need my support, but I am happy to say it's not often and I'm yet to see Kivi show the remotest sign of aggression. I'll happily admit I'm wrong and come to you for help if I ever find myself with a dog-aggressive canine as a result of this approach. Well, I won't be happy, but I'll admit I was very wrong. Anyway, my philosophy is that I can't be there to protect them every time they get cross or meet a bully. If you did that to a kid it would be frowned upon.

I think "inappropriate" signals of aggression is where it gets a little complicated. Penny is nearly 13 years old and has had all manner of dogs in her life over the years. She is now a lot less tolerant than she used to be. I am okay with that, as she is a bit sore these days and can't see very well and she feels she needs to be very clear about what she likes and what she doesn't like very early. She seems happier if she's allowed to do this than if I, say, tuck her between my legs where she can't get in anyone's way. She's a bit passive aggressive that way. Anyway, Penny rarely starts fights but is very good at preventing them, and I've seen her keep herself safe and comfortable by using aggressive displays to buy herself space from a dog she has only just met. I have never ever seen her start a fight this way. She's not trying to start a fight. She's trying to tell this dog that they are too close to her. On the other hand, we had a dog some time ago when she was younger with an unknown upbringing. When this dog fought, she didn't hold back and Penny ended up at the vets more than once and nearly lost an eye once. She had a screw loose, this dog, but my mother and I got very good at seeing the tiny warning signs and diving for her collar. She didn't tend to growl or lift her lip. Sometimes the hackles would come up, but usually it was too late by then. She would become a little stiff and get this look about her and you knew you were lucky if you had more than a couple of seconds to do something before you might be heading to the vets again. I actually think she gave less warning as time went on, but it sure would have been handy if at any time she gave a bit of a growl before she went troppo. I don't think we ever really corrected her because we never really had time to do anything but hope we could get to her before she got to Penny. It was hard even to say what would trigger it. Penny knows there are times when aggression is inappropriate, but even so, she rarely makes contact and when she does she doesn't do any damage. Is there any argument for allowing a well socialised dog that doesn't do physical damage to dictate the terms of her interactions with other dogs using aggressive signals? Now given, I don't stand by and let her bully the pup because it's not fair on him to live in fear or cop it over nothing more than a moment of frustation for Penny, but at the same time, he's got to learn when it's not a good idea to approach her. I find myself walking a bit of a tight rope trying to keep aggression at a level where I feel it's serving a purpose and not doing any psychological or physical damage. Aggression is, after all, the way that dogs tell each other where the line is. It serves to prevent fights. A fight is supposed to be what happens when the aggressive signals were not heeded. I've seen aggression escalate, and I believe it can become a learned response, but in a healthy, well-socialised dog, it seems to serve a purpose in keeping the peace.

This is an old discussion I'm curious to hear people comment on. If you train a dog not to growl/snarl/grumble/raise hackles etc through corrections, is it possible that you may train the dog simply not to do any of those things in warning and leave it no other option but to go straight for the bite? I've always been quite happy to hear Penny's grumbles and whatnot. She's pretty vocal and she's very predictable in that she'll grumble, then lift her lip, then snarl, then air snap in that order before making contact with a dog. There's lots of other more subtle things she does, but she gives ample warning. Some people have argued to me that I shouldn't tolerate any signs of aggression. By their reasoning, when you stop the signals you stop the whole behaviour because they are as one. By my reasoning, if you stop the signals then that's all you stop because the signals and the feelings that spark aggression can exist without one another. A few people have told me that they think their dogs reacted to being corrected for growling etc by bottling up their fury and then releasing it unexpectedly with little warning. Someone else told me that if you distract the dog at earlier signs, or when the dog first becomes stressed, you can have some success that way, but that if you come in late when the dog is actually talking pretty loudly and clearly that you can turn them into a silent fear biter. Just interested to know if anyone has any experience or stories to make them lean one way or the other.

I've heard good things about Constructional Aggression Treatment http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2008/03/...sion-treatment/ Unfortunately, it's very hard to do without some professional help and I don't know of anyone who does it in Australia. You need the co operation of a pretty bomb-proof dog or two as well. However, there is a lot to be said for slowly desensitising. Avoiding the trigger in the first place until you can increase tolerance to the trigger makes a lot of sense to me at least. Incidentally, when my pup wants to go jump all over another dog when he's on leash, I stand still and wait for it to pass. It doesn't take him long to try sitting quietly instead, seeing as it often gets him what he wants in other situations. Then we approach the dog. Sometimes he doesn't get to because the other owner rushes their dog away. Sometimes I think THAT'S what's responsible for dog aggressive dogs. Kivi also gets ample opportunity to approach dogs without my intervention and learns from being snapped at sometimes. Last weekend he went to approach an aggressive dog, then changed his mind when she came towards him. He went low and waited politely for her to check him out. He's only 6 months old, so I reckon he's doing pretty well and am happy with how our approach has worked.

It's all conditioning. The use of the word 'pretend' is problematic... Behavior that is rewarded is more likely to be repeated. So... The first time the hare chews on the cord, hare gets chased (reward). The next time the hare chews on the cord, hare gets chased (reward). The behavior is more likely to be repeated. No different than the way my dog runs to his mat the second he hears me heading toward the lounge room. Was he 'pretending' he was lying on his mat? No - it's simply that he's been conditioned that lying on his mat is likely to get a reward. He can't help it. Ha ha, well as it turns out that hare of mine has led me to question a lot of things about what animals are and aren't capable of. The interesting thing is, being chased is not always a reward for him. Sometimes he likes it, but most of the time if he's trying to chew something, he'd rather be left to chew it. So "ah-ah" works about 99% of the time to get him to leave something alone, but the other 1% of the time he's in a playful mood and seems to be deliberately going for objects that I have chased him off in the past. He nibbles on them, but I've seen him do it more like toying with his lips than genuine chewing. I've come to interpret it as "pretending" but it probably isn't, really. It's probably more like he's trying to illicit an "ah-ah" because he wants to be chased and knows from experience that putting this object in his mouth usually does that. I should probably mention that I've found working with a wild animal more different to working with a domestic animal than, say, working with a rabbit and working with a dog. So the hare was born in the wild and he definitely behaves very differently to my domestic rabbit, or my domestic dog, or domestic cats or birds, for that matter. My rabbit behaves more like my dogs than my hare, if that makes sense. I'm beginning to wonder if domesticating an animal really changes the way they think quite significantly. I think my hare, while not nearly as smart as a dog, has a kind of animal genius that I haven't seen yet in a domestic animal, although my mother's very smart Vallhund gets close sometimes. The hare is a genius at my body language and can practically read my mind and communicates very well, but he doesn't really get verbal communication and can be frustratingly flighty and unpredictable. I think for that reason my comparisons and comparisons between dolphins and dogs can be a bit problematic sometimes. I run into troubles when I assume the differences are known and obvious. They are to me and when I make those comparisons I'm cheerfully ignoring a lot of fairly big and important differences and focusing for a moment on the fairly vague similarities. I get frustrated when people carefully point out that hares and dogs are not the same but it's my fault for being impatient and not including disclaimers. I think the problem with managing is that you may have to adjust your expectations. If you want a dog that will be good off leash but are having trouble overcoming its prey drive for example, you could decide to persist with training to get what you wanted however you can or you could decide to manage by never letting the dog off leash in unenclosed areas. I know someone overseas with a rescued Chow that hates children and strangers. The owner has decided it's better for the dog and people if they manage this rather than trying to rehab. The Chow gets locked away so it can't see the kids or strangers that occasionally visit. The Chow is less stressed and the owner doesn't have to deal with the potential of a dog that might bite someone. There's a lot of people that think management is the wrong choice in that situation, but there are also a lot of people that think the dog should have been pts. Who can say in the end what is right but the person who loves the dog and lives with it every day and night?

To be honest, I think stern tones of voice are very useful and not necessarily very punishing. I have found my pup has had to learn what a stern tone means. What would you want it to mean? If you don't want it to be punishing there's no reason why it should be unless the dog naturally finds it punishing. Anyway, this is what I'd do: Train a great "leave it" using high value food treats if the dog is food motivated. Don't start with the kiddy, but start with something boring and reward the dog for looking away and build up to better things. Always make sure your reward is higher than the reward of the thing you are asking the dog to leave. In the meantime, manage and make sure the dog is not able to stalk the child for food. Additionally, start teaching the dog something about tone or a stop command using classical conditioning so you have something to fall back on if you get ahead of yourself and/or find yourself in a situation where your leave it command is not working. It should at least give you a moment of hesitation to use either to go and get the dog or sing out an incompatible command such as calling the dog over, asking for a sit or down or whatever. Eventually, the dog should "leave it" whether you have treats or not as it will have become a conditioned response to do so. The dog should hesitate at the least if you use your classically conditioned punisher, which is a bad name for it because the dog shouldn't find it very aversive at all. My animals respond to "ah-ah" by stopping and looking at me (all of them, even the bunnies!). If it's something they didn't care about that much anyway, they will leave it at that and find something else to do. If it's something they really do care about, they might experimentally try continuing and I would repeat the ah-ah more firmly. If I'm lazy enough that I haven't got up yet and they are determined enough to push it, they might try again at which point I get up and shoo them away, usually finding them something else more acceptable to do. People will tell you they are the ones training me, but hey, some of us are okay with this. My hare will deliberately pretend to nibble on something he knows I am eventually going to get up and chase him away from if he is in the mood to be chased. In all honesty, I am totally okay with him using that to tell me he wants to be chased, and I am totally okay with obliging him. The dogs don't seem to use it to their advantage like that, at least so far, but my older dog is a bit cluey and if she finds something to eat on the ground and I say "ah-ah" she'll eat it as fast as possible because she knows I will come and get it off her. Needless to say, her training has not been particularly rigorous and her "leave it" was trained the lazy and less-effective way using classical conditioning rather than operant conditioning. If you want to avoid these problems, you've got to either make sure you're using high value rewards or be prepared to use aversives. My old dog knows wolfing down what she's found on the ground will bring my wrath down on her, but she also knows the worst of my wrath involves being cross with her and maybe separating her from me and all the fun for a bit. The food is worth it, so unless I want to get nasty with her, my only option is to be offering something better than the food or managing. For those that want to triumphantly point out how I have failed in my positive methods or whatever, I've heard it all before and I'm not talking to you. I am happy to bring up my training failures to illustrate where things can go wrong. I always get in trouble when I compare hares and dogs, but I do it habitually because that hare has taught me so much about animals and the way they think. There's nothing like an animal you can't just bull over, force, coerce, or correct and that doesn't care if you are cross with it and some days would prefer you to leave it alone anyway to teach you something about getting along with animals! He's really changed the way I look at dogs, but let me just say I am all too aware of the differences between dogs and hares, which is why I never want another hare but will have dogs all my life!

Well as it happens, Tony, I don't use any aversives to stop my dog from crossing a busy road because my dog has a very good recall I have taught with PURELY POSITIVE means a la Leslie Nelson. He turns on a pinhead when he hears that emergency recall and gallops into my arms. It's not perfect yet, but I'm happy to make sure he's on leash around busy roads until I'm 100% confident with it. In fact, I am happy to keep my dog on leash around busy roads even when I am 100% confident. I would never trust one of my animals around a busy road with any contol I had instilled in the animal with aversives for one big reason. I won't do anything to my animal that is bad enough to overcome their desire to do something they think is really great. If pup sees a dog on the other side of the road and wants to go play with it, I've got nothing bad enough to make him think that's not such a great idea, however, I do have something GOOD enough to make him think heeding me is a better idea. Also, if you check my post I said that it was much easier to be purely positive with a hare than a puppy. I do not claim to be a purely positive trainer, as you'll also find in my post if you look. I do and have used punishments, but here's something important: I am not the kind of person that likes doing those things. If I can get away with not doing something to my animals that they don't like, I sure will choose that way. Are you seriously telling me that I am WRONG to want to avoid doing something to my animals that they don't like? I am a zoologist and the art of least invasive, minimally aversive has been so drilled into me that I automatically think of alternatives to force and punishments first. You've got to be true to yourself in life, and that includes training another animal. If being true to yourself means avoiding aversives, then more power to you for recognising your own limitiations. And no, there's nothing wrong with management if that's what you choose. Management does not always break down inevitably if you account for your own shortcomings. I have a 2 degrees of separation rule for my rabbits and dogs that I don't know well. There is always at least 2 closed doors between dogs and bunnies for the moment when human failure could cause disaster. It's saved the hare maybe twice and has meant that I don't have to expose the hare to excited dogs that want to eat him to train something I will never trust anyway. I work full time and spend a lot of time in the field. I don't have time to sit down and train away every little thing that could cause trouble in the future. I manage and link management with training if it's something I care very much about. The argument that you're denying yourself some part of the operative conditioning quadrant is, IMO, one that doesn't hold a lot of water. I don't really see why you have to use every quadrant or some such just because they exist. I do use punishments, but I don't use ones that are strong enough to actually stop behaviour forever. I'm finding that it's working quite nicely for me. I will always be able to change my methods if I find they are not working quite nicely for me, so how am I denying myself of some training tools when I simply haven't found a need for them yet? And this may come as a surprise, but I don't actually mentally classify everything I do into OC quadrants and make sure I've picked R+ and R-. I just make a habit of picking least invasive and minimally aversive methods. You've got to do what suits you, and so I do. There's no point upsetting yourself using punishments or force if you can make yourself feel happy avoiding them as long as everyone is safe and you are meeting your own expectations in training.

I like to say I'm a LIMA trainer, Least Invasive, Minimally Aversive. When I got my puppy I was determined to be as positive as possible with him. I believe it is more or less doable as I raised my wild hare with almost entirely positive interactions with him. With a hare, you can't ever frighten them or make something unpleasant or you'd lose them for good. I think that just because SOME dogs respond favourably to punishments or "corrections" doesn't mean that you should use it. We are human after all, which means we can fly in the face of nature if we feel like it and have the brains to figure out ways to make that work for us. Don't let anyone tell you you can't be purely positive because you can. You just have to be prepared to accept certain things your animal does as the way they are and manage rather than train. There is nothing inherently wrong with managing. I manage my pet rabbits' chewing desires because I'd rather not risk the carpet, the walls, the furniture, and the rabbits should they chew something like a live power cord. I don't know a single rabbit owner that would consider that "not addressing the problem". My point is, just because you can train something doesn't mean you should, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with deciding to manage rather than use P+ or something else aversive. Anyway, for all my efforts I discovered it was much easier to be positive with a hare than a puppy. Puppies have their moments when they are driving you up the wall and you snap before you think of a positive way out of the situation. I think that puppies are quite resilient to this sort of thing. One thing to remember is that all animals have their good days and bad days, and I think they are all capable of understanding to some degree that you can be cross with them and still be their best friend a moment later. Don't beat yourself up too much if you make mistakes. I think more important than whether you use punishments or corrections or not is the way you use them. My rule of thumb is that I don't want to do something that has a particularly lasting impression on my animal. If they are subdued for more than a few seconds after the event, then I was too harsh. That's my personal rule of thumb, but I'm not trying to teach my animals never to do something again. I'm trying to teach them that one behaviour is a less satisfying choice than another. So ignoring a puppy when they do something you don't like and rewarding them when they pick something more appropriate. And yeah, incompatible behaviours. I also like to use classical conditioning. You'd be amazed how far you can get with consistency alone. You can condition a punishment in a way. Like when you say "ah-ah" in a tone that isn't punishing to the dog, but follow it up with always shooing the dog away from whatever it's doing or something similar. Eventually "ah-ah" comes to mean the dog will be shooed away, and they start moving automatically as soon as you say it. Worked with my hare. I don't consider this very punishing unless you have an animal that is somehow terrified of being gently hustled away or distracted from something. Anyway, good for you for wanting to be positive. It's a little harder sometimes, but I think you feel better for it and a lot of crossover people tell me the dogs respond better. I'm a crossover person myself, and I believe it.

Kivi went through that stage, too. And for ages he wouldn't drop without sitting first. We just practiced and practiced. Getting him to drop for his meals broke his reservations about drop. My partner gets him doing it very enthusiastically by doing a big, exaggerrated hand signal using his whole arm. The hand starts well above his head and he says "Kivi" in this "get ready" tone he uses. Once he has Kivi's attention, he waits for a moment, then the whole arm comes down quite fast and Kivi hits the ground. Increasing the value of the reward, practicing, and making it a bit exciting has cured him of wanting a treat every time. He now hits the deck very nicely even for a verbal reward. Drop is one of those things a lot of dogs don't really like doing. It's a bit of a vulnerable position to be in. You've got to make it really worthwhile to do it!

Yeah luke! RRR is the greatest! Kivi Tarro is 6 months and currently his recall is good enough that he will stop in the middle of wrestling or chasing a doggy pal to tear across the entire dog park to us. He often runs before he even really knows where he's running to, so waving the arms over the head has become a must for him. We find we often have to give him a few nonsensical calls to tell him where we are when he's running, too, but we don't use our emergency recall more than once. I would further the idea of taking pup to strange surroundings by suggesting you take it not only to strange surroundings, but strange surroundings with a limited line of sight from the pup's level. It's great for teaching them to pay attention to you and stick close. Use that desperate puppy desire not to be left behind to your advantage while you have it! Long grass with tracks through it, or the bush, is great. Also play hide and seek and play the game where you toss them a treat every time they make eye contact after you say their name.

People are gonna disagree with me here, but I don't think he thinks he's alpha. I think he wants to control his own destiny but he's still a pup and hasn't figured out just how yet, and maybe sometimes he gets scared like a pup. Kivi is 6 months and he still gets pretty freaked when dogs bark at him. He wants to run away. Sure, he's a total wuss and has never so much as growled in all the time I've known him, but I think being scared of dogs barking or acting aggressively is natural for a pup. At least, most pups. Even if they bark and carry on back, that can be because they are frightened and don't know how else to respond to make them feel less afraid. If he's anxious about something, maybe you need to find a way to tell him it's all cool. If he's nuts about food, you could try sitting on the street in front of the houses with scary dogs and doing a quick and happy training session with loads of awesome treats. When Penny is anxious, sometimes the best I can do for her is to reassure her and give her a cuddle and move on, but sometimes the best I can do is ask her to do something she knows and then reward her highly when she does it. Depends on what she's afraid of. Of course, my dogs are push button dogs. Another thing you can try is free-shaping. Nothing wears Kivi out like trying to figure out what is going to make the clicker click. Just wait for Boh to do something and click it. One thing I got Kivi doing thorugh free-shaping was walking backwards. Just make sure you keep the clicks coming or he'll get bored. If Kivi does nothing for a good 30 seconds, I walk around or put something in front of him casually to try to prompt something I can click. Kodi is a tough one... If it were me, I'd separate them. KT has only been sharing a yard with Penny full time for about a month. I waited until I was confident they would leave each other alone. And until I thought Penny would be happier with him than on her own. It took a while. But Penny stands up for herself and Kivi respects her and the boundaries she sets. I knew a dog who would never gruff at a pup, and consequently he would spend hours standing in a wading pool where this pup couldn't get to him. It wasn't fair on him. It's not his fault he's a sweet gentleman and would rather stand in a pool for hours then gruff at a puppy. As far as I know, you can't teach a dog to stand up for themselves when they just don't want to. You can try to impose order yourself, but who's to stop him when you're not around? He's too clever in all the wrong ways to never try it and discover you are not omnipotent. Maybe I'm reading the situation wrong, and that wouldn't surprise me as I have some idea how much time you spend with Boh and he's not going to be like my human-fawning teddy bears, but I wonder if he has really bonded with you and trusts you. A lot of Kivi's moments evaporated once we had formed a bit of a predictable response to his various behaviours. There's nothing like predictability to instill a sense of trust in an animal, and a sense of what you expect of them. The more feedback you give them the better they come to understand you. I always find that when I spend time with Kivi training vocal directions on walks, for example, I feel so much closer to him than I do when he's just doing his own thing. He's listening to me and choosing to heed me. I think that our relationship has improved quite a bit for that. I think the swimming is a great idea and the frozen meals. We hide little frozen recreational bones around the yard for Kivi. I'm not sure if he finds them or Penny, but we hide enough that they should both have something. And they bury things in the garden all the time and dig them up when they remember them. I think they spend a lot of time every day just chewing old bones. And giving them something really hard is good exercise, too. Leslie Nelson's Really Reliable Recall dvd explains how to train difficult breeds like Mals to come when called no matter what. If Boh comes when called, you have so many more options for spending time with him and having fun and exercise. I have the dvd if you want to borrow it. My mother has it at Morisset at the moment. Teaching a good recall is also great for bonding, which might help you in other areas.

Kivi Tarro bites the brush and my hand a lot during grooming. I forgive him because he's a puppy and doesn't really know how to restrain himself, but I've found shoving a favourite toy in his mouth to chew does a pretty good job of distracting him. Some days he's being really obnoxious and biting way too hard and won't be distracted so I walk away and try again later. It's not worth getting frustrated over and he likes the attention enough that he would rather it continue. When he's trying we compromise. If he gives me a little while brushing without trying to bite me, I let him have a chew of the brush and my hand for a few moments. If he's being good and plalying along, it usually means he's in a receptive mood and if he tries to bite me I gruff at him to tell him I don't like it. I don't have a grooming table and I'm not planning on getting one. When KT sees the brush he knows what we're about. It's just a matter of whether he's in crazy puppy mode or cooperative puppy mode. He gets brushed regardless because we're brushing twice a day at the moment, but if he's being crazy I will resort to treats if the toy isn't working. Treats always work, just really need another hand.

Voice control REALLY helps. Our two can be walked together by one person, but not easily. My older dog, Penny, is 12. I never bothered about where she was walking as I never had to walk her with other dogs until a few years ago. My mother and I both tried to convince her to pick a side and walk there, but she just never really got into the habit and would get all stubborn and stand rooted to the spot if you try to guide her to somewhere she doesn't want to go. Enter the puppy. He's nearly 6 months old, now. My partner and I walk the dogs together, so it's been good for training the pup. In the end we gave up on short leashes because he was constantly hitting the end before anyone had time to tell him to stop. So we have done the vast majority of our leash training on a 5m long line and concentrated on classical conditioning and voice control. When I say "this side" he moves towards me when passing an object so the leash doesn't get tangled. When I say "hold up" he slows or stops, depending on what he's doing and how much leash he has. I'm now teaching him that "hang about" means come in and walk close to my left side. I'm using treats to reinforce that one, but the others were just persistant classical conditioning. He is pretty good, and on the occassions I have had to walk both at once, we have achieved it without me getting cross, which doesn't take much if dogs are all over the shop getting tangled. The trickiest bit is that Penny dawdles and sometimes wants to walk at the pace of death and sniff every single blade of grass while the pup wants to run, naturally. That's another place where the long line is useful. Penny can walk behind and Kivi can range ahead up to 5m. It's actually easier to manage than it sounds, as long as the pup is paying attention to my constant verbal directions. I walk around the block constantly saying "hold up", "this side", "hold up", "wait", "come on", "this side", and I'm saying "good boy" every time he does the right thing. It takes a bit of time, but I have to say that classical conditioning is totally underrated. All you have to do is say the same thing and have the same stimulus after every time. So teaching him "hold up" just meant saying it just before he hit the end of the leash and then patiently waiting for the slack on the leash again, then saying "okay" or "good boy" and moving again. I'm hoping it will translate to off leash work as well. I will tentatively say "hold up" is something he is thinking about less and less and just doing, so I think we will get there. I use "good boy" every time he gets a treat, so he has come to view that as a reward itself. So if I say "hold up" and he slows before the leash goes tight because he knows he's about to hit the end, I can say good boy and we never stop, which is great as far as he's concerned. So I guess it becomes a bit of a combined classical and operant conditioning approach. Anyway, I really think teaching verbal directions is quite easy and extremely useful, and I think it would help you out. We haven't used leash corrections at all with the puppy, and he does pretty well. And knowing "hold up" means he can adjust to any length of leash without too much trouble. Recently we went back to the tiny one for an unexpected walk and it took him about 5 minutes to adjust from a 5m leash to a 1m leash. My mother taught one of her dogs to walk on the left and the other on the right. She just did it with persistance. She kept guiding them with the leash to their spots. Now they won't walk unless they can walk in their spots. Unfortunately, the same approach did not work on Penny.

Kivi Tarro has been on raw since the day he got here, really. He's 5 months old, now, and the picture of health. I don't really try as hard as a lot or raw feeders do. I figure, it's not rocket science. Dogs have been raising themselves on pretty much garbage for a lot longer than there has been dog food available. KT gets chicken wings or drumsticks once a day, some other form of bone, usually red meat such as roo shanks or lamb breast, and a meal of mince mixed with mushed vegies and organs with a touch of dairy. Since he went onto 2 meals, he gets a big hunk of bone for breakfast, usually lamb breast or a couple of smaller ones with chicken wings, and then for dinner he gets chicken mince or beef mince, sometimes some vegies, and usually an offal meal once a week. I also feed him fish sometimes. Just be careful with commercially available pet mince because it often has a preservative in it that can be harmful to the animals after a while. I get mine from Cliff at justfood4dogs.com.au. Advertised as preservative free. Oh, and mine also get porridge with an egg sometimes. They like porridge. Billinghurst says in his book "Give Your Dog A Bone" that if you try to get the meat to bone (calcium to phosphorous) ratio perfect, you will probably fail. He says you're better off relying on nature to get it right for you and feed meaty bones a dog can eat, such as chicken and lamb. He admits in his book to having raised puppies successfully almost entirely on chicken wings, although he doesn't recommend it.

Yeah, thanks everyone, I get it. And I'm not trying to prove anything. People were responding to my discussion so I kept on with it. If you don't want to discuss then that's fine by me, don't get involved. I don't believe e-collars harm dogs, for the record, but I'm bowing out seeing as my point of view is apparently boring and annoying. And I promise I'll never ever bring it up again, even should a newbie come along and ask.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. I ain't that stupid. I'm just offering discussion. What would be the point of a forum if people didn't voice their disapproval of something with clear reasons why? I've been very fair to a device that will never sit well with me thank you very much. Anyway, it's not you that I'm talking to. It's people who don't know about them or haven't used them. Both sides should be presented to any training tool. Think I haven't had my share of being accused of being too soft, using methods that don't work, have negatives I supposedly pretended didn't exist, and teaching my dog to wring me for every treat at my disposal? And that's just the start of it. There are always differing opinions. It wouldn't be a very interesting forum if those opinions weren't aired.

Well, Pyry at least has killed animals. He's basically the Grimm Reaper for Blue-tongues and anything of a similar size is fair game. He's definitely been harder to control since he's made a few kills. But just recently when he had a little bluey I called him calmly and he at least let me approach him and take the lizard off him. It was still alive, just, and I think it survived. Anyway, the point is, he's not even my dog, but if you set up a history of not being the enemy in these situations, then you can still do pretty well in a tight place with little lives on the line. I guess what I'm trying to say is that from my perspective at least, it's better to be your dog's friend when they're revved up and ready to kill than to stand back and introduce an environmental punishment. I wouldn't trust Pyry to heed anyone every time he felt a kill coming on, but then, I kind of like that about Pyry. It's a lot of fun to approach these problems from the perspective of "how can I get in on the fun" rather than "how can I stop the fun". It's a delicious challenge to find ways to be the one your dog actually turns to when they're trying to catch something. Of course, Pyry isn't very fast and if he could catch more things on his own it might be a different matter. And you have to be careful about tricking him because he catches on very fast when he's been tricked and it doesn't work anymore. But then, that's part of the fun as well. And here I am picking breeds with low drive for the sake of the bunnies that have to share the house with the dogs. Incidentally, I've heard of e-collars being used to increase drive. I think the idea was to use it on a setting too low to be a punishment, but high enough to act as a stimulant. Can't say I really bought the idea, though. I've also heard of them being used as a reward. I didn't quite understand it, but I think the dogs were conditioned to like the buzz and were buzzed when they were on the right trail. They were hunting dogs. I haven't met a dog yet that has not much drive and still somehow needs a punishment for... for what? My corgi has next to no drive and she's dead easy to train. We don't have any troubles to start with because she's not so easily seized by movement and such. Until I taught her to chase kangaroos. Don't ask me what was going through my head when I started doing that, but teaching her to chase roos was a lot easier than teaching her NOT to chase roos. But I guess she's proof that drive can be brought out even in non-drivey dogs. She doesn't ever give the wild hare running through my house a second glance, but kangaroos are for chasing. As for dogs that learnt to satisfy their own prey drive, I reckon 90% of training at least is just establishing habits. I've broken a lot of habits in my hare based on instinctive behaviours. It's not so hard. Of course, I did have the trusty tobasco and bitter spray when it was a habit set in stone and I was having trouble shifting it, so I guess an e-collar is the doggy equivalent of my tobasco/bitter spray. And yeah, his latest habit of peeing all over the cage instead of in his litter tray is a doozy and doing my head in. And my nose. And probably the kitchen floor because I don't think his cage is as waterproof as I'd like it to be. In the end, I usually leave habits if they're not potentially dangerous and/or I don't have a kind way to tackle them. Oh hey, another thought about drive. I've been encouraging drive in my little lappie puppy, which is a bit of a joke. He likes tug, but doesn't try very hard. He likes chasing frisbees and balls, but only if I've managed to rev him up a fair bit first and it's a bit hit and miss, but we've got this puppet toy that's a big padded boxing glove sort of thing with a big red mouth and a squeaker and ears and little legs dangling off. He goes absolutely nuts over that toy. It gets him into a frenzy and he will wear himself out wrestling with it, tugging on it, chasing it as I spin in circles, and fiercely subduing it. I haven't found anything yet that gets close to being as exciting as that puppet toy. And somehow it makes him more careful of accidentally biting me instead of the puppet. I've been trying to figure out what it is about this puppet that hits home. All the dogs in the dog park keep trying to steal it, too. It's extremely popular. Haven't tried it with the corgi, but she was brought up to believe teeth didn't belong anywhere near someone's hand. Don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

Okay, but even with a very prey driven dog you can find rewards to offer them that are pretty appropriate to the moment. I know people who have taught their very prey driven dogs to turn around for a hard game of tug rather than hare off after some fleeing prey animal. Even my mother's Vallhund, who once tore a hole in the garage wall trying to get at a possum, will leave it and come to you if he thinks you're going to help him get the possum. And he is SMART. As in, I didn't think dogs were capable of that kind of thing smart. And independent, as in you're boring, screw your treats, I'm going hunting on my own independent. If you ever went too far with the punishments with that little guy you'd lose him for good.