corvus

I think some people are control freaks. I don't know if this is just me, but frankly, the main reason I have animals is because they are in a sense uncontrollable. I love that an animal is its own creature with an agenda and likes and dislikes, and I love feeding its likes and seeing it happy. I'm a bit simple that way. When I work out what they like, I give it to them if I can. Provided it's harmless. I love that when they interact with me it's purely because they want to. I am happy to tamper with that if it seems necessary for their safety, or if it's necessary to open them to new things for them to enjoy, but ultimately, I don't want to mess with it just to make training easier. That's cheating, which is fine if that's all you want from your animals. I just like the added depth I get from working around an animal's natural tendencies rather than just controlling them. I couldn't have been prouder when I taught my hare a meaningless trick just because it took me a long time and a lot of thinking to find a way to convince him to do it. It was so much more rewarding than teaching Kivi to down on signal. Anyway, there are always risks, but I think you can train a perfect recall without neutralisation, and I'd rather try that way first because of the way I enjoy my animals. I did end up having to withold treats from my hare to get him to co operate, but he only missed out for a few nights before he figured out what the game was and then he was coming out and talking to me and getting his head scratches and remembering how much he likes those. I wouldn't have persisted for much longer if he hadn't caught on. I always say just because you can train it doesn't mean you should. We spend so much of our time dominating our animals when all we need to do is learn to work with them and enjoy them for who they are and what they are.

You have no idea how glad I am to hear someone else say that! I've noticed with Penny over the years that she is calmer in the face of fear if I have a look at whatever she is frightened of, and/or get down to her level and put a hand on her and just talk to her quietly in a happy, soothing tone. Sort of like "Are you afraid of that old thing?? Aww, I know it's scary, but it's all right, no big deal." If I can, I would do that until she relaxed. Often all it takes it to acknowledge her and tell her everything is fine. If I don't acknowledge and just ignore, what should she think? Perhaps I haven't realised there's something scary there despite the fact she's trying to tell me! That's even more scary. She's all on her own, then. I'm not sure what you should have done, but for me fear comes first. Temple Grandin, famed autistic animal trainer, says the worst thing you can do to an animal is make them feel afraid. I think that is so important. Fear is how animals learn. It's such a powerful thing. So when my animals are afraid, I usually try to stick by them until they feel more relaxed. If I can soothe them so that they start feeling less fearful, then I've accomplished two things: my animal is relaxed, so big plus there, but I helped them get relaxed, so double plus. Now they have that little more trust in me that will help me next time they are afraid. I would have stopped and tried to calm her, but failing that, I would have high-tailed it out there and forgot about the training. She's not going to learn much about loose leash walking when she scared regardless. I would speed up my pace to try to keep pace with her, although outright running is probably not the message you want to send. Once I was out of there, then I would have stopped and talked to her to get her listening to me again. That's just what I would have done. No idea if it's right or not. Of course, I have a wild hare as a pet and sometimes the best thing you can do for his fear is to leave him alone. Penny is afraid of thunderstorms and fireworks. I find the best thing to do for her is to let her find a place she feels safe and hang out nearby reading a book or whatever. It all depends on the level of fear.

You know, lots of dogs don't even register that they are going through a door before or after you, and trying to mouth you can be a sign of affection rather than "testing". Some dogs are just excitable. There are plenty of dogs out there that test merely because they don't want to do what you asked them to rather than anything to do with dominance or social climbing. Just the other day KT cheerfully ignored his recall, then tried zooming home half a minute later with the expectation that he would get his treats still. He is the most submissive dog I've ever met. He's 7 months old and we still haven't seen so much as a growl or a hard stare from him. He goes belly-up at a sideways look. But you know, in wolf packs, submissive behaviour often actually gets the wolf what they want. Ever seen the way a mother wolf approaches her mate when he has food and she has pups? She's all ears flat and belly on the ground and licking his mouth like a puppy. Then she snatches the food and runs away. I've heard of submissive dogs always getting what they want through similar wheedling behaviour. There are so many reasons why one particular animal will behave in a particular way. I've known loads of dogs that don't give a fart about doorways, and my old corgi has only recently started caring as her eyesight has deteriorated, and she was only doing it when KT was still new in the household. She was nervous, not dominant. She doesn't care who goes through the door first as long as she can trust them not to wipe her out in the process. Anyway, you can always try a different way. It's not like you can't change back to the old way if it's not working. Try playing tug and actually doing fun things with the dog and see if she gets more attentive eventually. It's not hard to bring a dog in line with NILIF if it starts getting out of control. If my dog isn't doing what is asked, I usually assume I am not asking in the right way. How can I blame them for blowing me off when I'm nowhere near as interesting as something else? It's just a matter of making yourself more interesting. Incidentally, I like walking with my dogs for having fun and bonding. The both know a lot of verbal cues, so I'm always talking to them as we walk and they respond accordingly without even thinking. It's nice to see them with an ear open to my talk all the time. And it's good to set up habits in your dog that double as setting up good manners and attentiveness.

I know someone who rehabilitates aggressive dogs and she is of the opinion that sometimes frightened dogs can benefit quite a lot from actually offering them affection when they are afraid (I know, anathema!). Anyway, I have discussed at length with her how with some dogs it seems to help them manage their fear if their owners acknowledge it. I'm not talking cooing and coddling and making baby noises, but just calmly bringing them in close and putting a comforting arm around them or something. My dog is afraid of loud noises, and I have found over the years that if it's really loud, I may need to sit with her to keep her calm. If I ingore her completely, she's likely to become hysterical, but if I very quietly come and sit next to her and just put a hand on her and say nothing very much, she finds it calming. What I'm getting at is a bit convoluted and a fair bit of guesswork, but if you have a nervy, reactive dog, one thing you can do for them is show them that you see what is so scary and you don't find it scary. I think there's an exercise in the book Control Unleashed that involves getting the dog to look at what scares them, then look back to you. I have heard some really great things about it helping reactive dogs. Someone else I know went to a seminar by the author in the states. The demonstration dog was such a pro, the trainer would say "look at that" and he'd look at the scary thing, and then she'd say "look at me" and he'd look back at her and no reactivity.

Well, while I don't think any dog really does something specifically to please his owner, I noticed with our pup that he already knew what a happy person looked and sounded like when he came home with us at 8 weeks. Happy voice = happy pup. It took rewards to condition "good boy" as a reward all on its own with no accompanying treats or pats, but the reality is, both he and Penny are very happy when their people are happy with them. There is such a thing as social learning, and there is such a thing, IMHO, as an innate desire for harmony in the group. Thus, dogs learn what an angry/sad/negative human looks like if they are sensitive to "bad vibes" in the group, and they instinctively gravitate towards doing things that promote good feelings in the group. That, to me, is at the heart of what makes a dog particularly biddable. All right, here's my hare story: My hare is the only animal I've ever met who has seemed to do something enirely for my benefit. I was having a bad night one time and the dog knew I was cranky and selfishly thought it must be her that I was cranky with and was trying to appease me by sitting at my feet and giving me adorable looks. Of course, I just kept tripping over her, which made me more cranky. The rabbit was oblivious of my mood and was being particularly mischievous attacking cords from every angle with a variety of strategies to get past me. The hare sat in his cage all night and kept out of it. At the end of the night I put all the animals to bed. When I got to the hare, he quietly hopped over to me and covered my hand in hare kisses, which is something he might do twice a year if I'm lucky. My anger naturally evaporated and I relaxed and wished all my animals were so perceptive. As a non-social, wild animal with no real vested interest in my emotional state, there was no real reason for my hare to do anything. He could have sat in his cage and ignored me like he does most of the time. I will never know if he knew what he was doing or if it was just a coincidence, or if he had more of a vested interest in my emotional state than I believed. What I do know is that I've never seen a dog do anything remotely like it! They don't like us being sad because of its impact on them. They like us to be happy because of its impact on them. ETA: Oh, I thought of another one. One time the hare got his leg caught in a cloth and flipped out. I was able to get him free with some difficulty. His natural instinct is to run for the hills in such a circumstance, but he pulled himself up from fleeing and came back to me to again cover my hand in hare kisses. What the? Never done anything like it before or since. That hare has challenged a lot of things I thought I knew about animals. But then, wild animals are something else. They are grown ups next to our domestic furry kids.

If it were me, I would try training an alternate behaviour. For example, train him to sit when he gets near your son. It may be a little difficult with such a young puppy as they are still babies. You would just need to be really consistent. I would also think about putting a leash on him so if he gets too excited he can't get to your son to nip. You don't want him forming a nipping habit in spite of your training. It would be hard to break, I reckon. On the plus side, puppies do tend to get over nipping on their own eventually, but it can be a long time and you wouldn't want your son to grow to dislike Digi. Look up Karen Pryor on the web. She has a page, I think it's called Clicker Solutions or something similar. Lots of articles to read. There is also a couple of really good Yahoo clicker groups that are worthwhile reading through to understand how different people approach it and why. Best of luck. I think Newfies are a great choice for an autistic child. Unfortunately they all start as puppies. :rolleyes:

It is my humble opinion that you want to be really careful using corrections in this case. It sounds a lot like a dog my mother had a few years ago. Despite being raised in her home as a puppy and despite her doing everything right (socialisation, puppy preschool, training, NILIF) he got worse and worse as he grew older and eventually bit someone. By that stage he certainly was not allowed off leash, but someone came up to him and tried to pat him even though he was growling. Some people are idiots, but it doesn't help the dogs to blame people you can't control. Anyway, a professional was called to see this dog and we were told he had every kind of aggression under the sun and that if he was any bigger he ought to be put down. I think most of it was based in fear. He would come around to strangers, but ONLY if they ignored him. Sometimes dogs like that... if they get punished in any way shape or form while they are engaging in the aggressive behaviour, it can be sort of like a justification to them that they were right to be so worked up about it all. The professional that saw my mother's dog said he would never be trustworthy and she would be looking at a whole lot of management. She had kids in the house and other dogs and just wasn't in a position where she could have an aggressive dog, so he went back to his breeder. Both me and my mother wonder to this day if it would have been kinder to put him to sleep. Life was a big trial for that little guy. Every new person, every new dog, every new situation was a cause of deep anxiety for him. Socialisation just made it worse because it was too hard to keep it all below his threshold. At least it sounds like your dog is not this bad. It's hard to say what's going on from the internet, but I would just point out my usual mantra that most of training is forming good habits. A lot of problems are habit related as well. If she's only doing it to adults and off leash, it makes me think you're dealing with a habit rather than something real like the dog my mother had. I sure hope so. But I could be completely off the mark.

Maybe you could try wearing him out a bit first? KT was way more focused during training as a pup if he'd had heaps of exercise that day. Also good treats are important.

As I understand it, hunting behaviour is not just an on-off thing. There are different behaviours that make up hunting behaviour. Different breeds have different parts of hunting behaviour emphasised or bred out. For example, herders stalk, but don't get much further. Sighthounds just chase (although obviously they can and do kill if they get the chance). Some dogs have the full set: stalk, chase, bite, kill. You could even add eat and/or seek at either end. Anyway, a dog that just wants to chase is engaging in only one part of hunting behaviour. A dog that just wants to kill is usually engaging in the full set. My mother has a little Swedish Vallhund that I have seen literally tear a hole in a garage wall trying to get at a possum. If it smells like a prey animal, he just wants to kill it. He is so fast on those Blue-tongues he's snapping his mouth shut on them before you realise he's no longer plodding sedately at your side. My mother spent weeks trying to desensitise him to my rabbits when they stayed with her and it never happened. He could not forget for a second that he wanted to kill them. He's not interested in toys. When he's off leash, he wants to hunt. That to me is real prey drive. Everything else is just bits and pieces of it. You just have to think outside the square with these dogs. This little Vallhund would do anything if he thought you were going to help him bring home the bacon. But he's incredibly smart and you can't fool him more than once. What you've gotta do is find something he thinks is amazing and build it up. Keep it hidden so he only gets to sniff if he does the right thing and only gets to bite if he does something amazing. Get the real thing. A whole bird wing, or a birds nest is often pretty good, or I'll post you some rabbit fur. They might not want to chase something, but I bet they want to rip it to pieces. This Vallhund of my mother's would do just about anything for a mouthful of rabbit fur, too. Having said that, I know someone whose Basenjis thought she was insane when she went running around the yard with a bird nest on a rope.

Penny can't see very well anymore. She is nearly 13. Her eyesight has been deteriorating slowly for about the last 2-3 years. She doesn't often act like a dog that can't see very well. She sometimes gets nervous when people or dogs move fast at close quarters because she can't seem to follow them very well, or perhaps she can't see them at all. She sometimes snaps at children if they put their fingers near her eyes. But then, when she was younger a toddler poked her in the eye and she's been nervous about kids around her eyes ever since. The chief problem we have with her is that her hearing isn't as good as it was either, and if she is off lead in an open area she sometimes wanders too far away and can't see where we are or pinpoint where we are calling from. We have to go and get her. We keep her on long lines more and more. She doesn't normally want to wander far anway. I know someone who regularly takes in senior dogs. She uses essences and essential oils to teach her dogs to find their way around. For example, she might use an orange essence at the bottom of a step so the dog knows to step up. She uses another scent around dangerous objects like hot things or drop-offs so the dog knows to stay clear. She usually starts annointing things before the dogs go blind so they can learn with the help of their eyes to begin with. All in all, though, dogs don't need their eyes that much. Penny's eyes are very clouded, but apart from tripping over a bit, you wouldn't know it. She always knows where we are and where Kivi is and never runs into anything. I've seen a dog that was totally blind in one eye and nearly blind in the other and he still knew exactly where I was and looked right into my face. The owner told me he sometimes ran into things if she moved something, and she couldn't walk him off lead, but he was still a happy boy.

I want to go to your puppy class, Dory! One thing I have found with a lot of dog trainers in general is that they think they know everything about dogs - in general and yours - and that you probably know nothing. This hasn't bothered me so much in the past because I would just do my thing, but I was a kid back then and used to doing what I was told. Nowadays I can cope with it as long as the trainer is actually open to the notion I might know something about dogs, at least my dog. I have been to wildlife classes where the teacher has been saying a lot of things I (as a person with a degree in zoology) don't think is entirely accurate. Sometimes it's hard to keep from piping up and offering my interpretation, or what I have heard from other experts, however it occurs to me that just because I know a lot about wildlife doesn't mean I know everything about wildlife, and just because a mentor of mine said something does not mean there is no truth in anything that conflicts slightly with that. It can be quite interesting to see what other people know as facts and how they choose to pass their information on. Sorry, that was all a bit off topic, but I just wanted to say that I totally understand why trainers are often arrogant and think anyone who hasn't made a career out of dogs doesn't know anything about them, but keeping your mouth shut and listening even when you think you know it all can still teach you things. The trainer in our puppy class repeatedly used Kivi to demonstrate something and she would always ignore me if I told her we were using a slightly different hand signal and he didn't know that one, and also she would repeatedly drop the treat and walk off, which always confused him and left him wondering if he'd done the right thing and where his treat was. Instead of ignoring that, she could have turned it into a lesson about what a confused puppy looks like. It's exasperating when someone is so caught up in showing everyone how good they are at getting fast results that they won't admit when things didn't go perfectly to plan.

We taught Kivi Tarro down from a sit as it was the easiest way. Down from a stand was a while coming, but just took practice. He knew what down meant, just wasn't very enthused about doing it. He was more enthused about sit, so he'd sit, then down. We broke through this problem by making down a very cool thing for him to do. Chiefly we used his meals and he didn't get them until he downed. I thought at first he didn't know it well enough, but I would watch him and you'd give him the command and he'd think about it for a full 5 seconds or more (which seems like an age for a 9 week old puppy!) and then if you were still waiting he'd whine in frustration and go down real fast and bounce back up again. So he knew it, he was just holding out in the hopes I would give up. Once I figured that out we just practiced and practiced with really high value rewards, and also medium and low value rewards sometimes as well. Nowadays he goes down very fast from a stand or a sit. It's getting him to stay down that usually takes a bit of insistence! He does push-ups.

I second McConnell. Very good. I thoroughly enjoyed "Bones Would Rain From the Sky" by Susan Clothier. It was more about relationships than training. I am currently reading "Kicked, Bitten and Scratched" which is tales from a school for exotic animal trainers. It's as much a story about people and personalities than training animals.

No, to "correct" generally means to indicate or mark the errors in. Or perhaps we mean to punish in order to improve. Either way I don't even like the word correction. If I'm going to punish I call it by its name. I don't think -R fits into either of those categories, btw. ETA: Kavik, I never said I used the check chain correctly! As it happens, she did get praise, but it wasn't near good enough to override the unpleasantness of checking. As I said, a professional did tell me how to do it, but this was in the days when you had to have a check chain to enrol in an obedience class. The professional had one method and one method only. It was pretty bad for me and my dog.

KT went nuts the first time he set eyes on this dog puppet we bought from the pet store, and he's gone nuts every time he has laid eyes on it ever since. He loves nothing more than to wrestle with a hand stuffed in a big puppy-shaped glove that squeaks. Most toys he's luke warm about, but that one just gets him going so fast. You can push him with it and he'll push back so hard his front legs come off the ground, then he grabs it with his paws and falls over with it. We have recently stopped using it a as a wrestling toy due to it loosing half its stuffing and not offering much protection anymore, but he chases it with just as much enthusiasm as he ever wrestled it with. And he's a dog that doesn't really get games of fetch. Incidentally, anyone want rabbit fur? Bonnie is shedding something severe and there's plenty to stuff in a rag if anyone wants something that smells delicously prey-like.

Have you seen Leslie Nelson?? She has great recalls on her Afghans. Yes, that's right, Afghans, often considered one of the least trainable dogs. And she did it entirely with positive methods. Period. I think that is mightily impressive. To stay on topic, my experience with check chains has been pretty negative. I stopped using one after hanging my dog pulling her out of the way of the maniac mongrel next door that was charging her. She was okay, but it wasn't pretty picking between swinging her around on a check chain (all 4 feet off the ground) or watching this dog rip into her, which he'd been trying to do for months and finally had his chance. So please be aware that there are sometimes situations where check chains can be downright dangerous. Once I stopped using the check (which we never really needed anyway), I found that my dog gradually started walking closer to me. I believe the only thing I managed to teach her with a check chain was that walking close to me illicited random unpleasantness. I was shown by a professional, but obviously one that didn't know what they were doing. I honestly don't think I will ever overcome that block I put in my dog with a check chain. It was not an appropriate tool for my dog at least. I think I would have had the same reaction from Kivi if I'd used one on him. He's pretty sensitive. I once taught him not to come inside by loudly interrupting him in the middle of peeing inside. It took me all evening to coax him back in. I've never seen a dog that learnt to walk nicely as a puppy start pulling as an adult. Kivi tried it on a few weeks ago and has since given up on it. I do know a dog that didn't learn as a puppy and now only walks nicely on a halti. Take it off and she's all right for about 2 days, then she's pulling again. It's all about habits, people. At least 90% of training is establishing habits you like.

The one we went to was more puppy class than puppy pre-school. The classes often went for an hour or more, which I felt was just too long for wee little puppies. Pups were also expected to ignore other puppies and sit quietly, which was another thing I found a bit unrealistic. We would have been much more successful in the class if our pup had been allowed to play with the others for just 10 mins at the start of the class to get it all out of his system. What I did like about it was the use of games in training. Me and Kivi won musical chairs, which was defiitely the highlight of our puppy class experience for the humans. We also got prizes when we got things right, which was fun. I did like the way the trainer was open to me doing things marginally different, although as it came out several months later, the trainer had not been okay with it at all and had been very threatened by me daring to ask politely if I might do it slightly differently and ripped into me over it as soon as they got their back up over something. NOT shouting at your clients is a really good start!

If I let Kivi set the pace we'd be running half the time. If I let Penny set the pace, we'd take an hour to walk around the block. We mostly let them do what they like as it's their time, but they've got to stay off the road unless we tell them we're crossing and no pulling. Penny doesn't actually know a heel command, but we are teaching Kivi "hang about" which is supposed to be like a loose heel just to keep him close. He's pretty good with it but we're still using treats. Penny is a bit arthritic and resists being hustled along, so most of the time she gets to go close to her own pace.

Haha, Miranda, we did all three. A professional was consulted, the dogs were separated and the messed up dog was eventually euthanised. It was horrific and I don't usually like to talk about it much. Unfortunately I was away at uni for the worst of it, so I wasn't able to help much. We certainly didn't "let" one dog viciously attack another. We did not understand what we were dealing with, but we still managed to prevent a lot more than we missed. And that's all I'm saying about that. I'm sorry you live in a world where apparently dogs are much more dangerous than the ones I routinely encounter. I have nothing more to say, either. I am never going to have two dogs of the same size and sex and I am never going to have a dog that I haven't socialised well. When I meet dogs like that I stay well away. This combination has worked pretty well so far! I am so over this topic, now. I'm sorry I ever brought it up. I'll wear a rubber band so I can snap myself next time I think "Hey, I wonder what DOLers think of that?".

But what's inappropriate, Erny? I don't think air snaps are inappropriate in certain circumstances (they are in others), but I think making contact is usually inappropriate. Other people think showing teeth or raising hackles is inappropriate. Some people think a fixated stare or a growl is inappropriate. I would interrupt a fixated stare but not a growl unless it kept happening or whatever countless other exceptions I might make to that rule. In the end, everything is a case-by-case basis. As the one that doles out all the good things and the one with the leash in my hand, I get to say when I won't stand for something and that's that, but that's not to say I won't take into account what the dogs are all saying. If it seems fair I'm sympathetic. If it seems unfair I'm not as sympathetic. If there are things to account for unfairness I'm somewhere in the middle. K9, I didn't think it would have because we were too close to the dog and too far from neutral territory when he showed up. If I could have made a safe escape I would have chosen that over a risk. But maybe now I wouldn't. Who can say? Depends on what all the dogs are doing and where we are. I wasn't actually asking for advice. I'm fine with the way things are here. I was asking for an opinion, which you have given. Thanks. As for dogs getting hauled across the road, I can't be bothered going down yet another side-path. Suffice to say my partner and I always stop when we see another dog approaching and pull our dogs in so we are not taking up the entire footpath. They are not sitting perfectly at our feet, but sniffing around in the grass, usually. It seems a shame to me that what could be a chance for us to meet some dog owners and the dogs to practice polite greetings or even walking past other dogs without reacting turns into the sound of dog claws scrabbling on the road as the poor things get dragged by very tense owners to the other side of the road. I'm sure you all know that tension breeds tension.

Miranda, after what we went through with Penny and the dog with no bite inhibition, I feel like I'm in a pretty well-informed position when it comes to dogs interacting. Seeing my girl hanging from another dog's jaws by her thigh was a horrifying experience. As was seeing tufts of her fur go flying when the other dog shook her. As was seeing how frightened she would be when she could see as well as we could that she was about to cop it and couldn't do a thing to stop it. It was all the worse because I loved the other dog dearly as well. If that dog had been bigger I have no doubt she would have killed my girl the first time it happened. But that dog was messed up. Really messed up. I don't often see dogs like that. Most dog spats I have seen have been all noise and might end with one dog lying on top of the other. The worst I've seen from a normal dog is a nick on the ear or nose. That's not to say I am in the least bit comfortable with dog fights. I'm not and I break them up if they are still going by the time I get there, and I step between the dogs if I think one is about to start in front of me. I haven't had to do that for years, though, and never with a dog I haven't known. It doesn't really take nerves of steel when it's all over with nothing but an air snap before you have a chance to do anything. Or better still, tension evaporates with an appropriate greeting. I've also seen a well-socialised dog do everything in its power to avoid a dog that is a bit messed up. They know. I don't have to tell them to stay away because they already are skirting around well outside the dog's range and carefully not making eye contact. I don't have nerves of steel, just trust that my dogs are not suicidal and don't want to start anything. Most dogs are not suicidal and don't want to start anything.

That's another interesting example, Kavik. I have never had that problem, but I did once have someone with a dog that seemed torn about whether it wanted to approach and say hi or make the other dogs stay away. It was one moment play-bowing and the next moment running away or lunging. It was pretty weird. The owners said she was getting over some sort of leash-related dog aggression, I think it was, and still had a ways to go. I'm not really sure what they were doing to help. They let the dog get close to mine, but increased the distance when she got funny. I won't say what I did or what my dogs did lest I be flamed for it, but I will say I wasn't the only one that was a bit confused. I'm don't think that one would have gone particularly well if the other dog was off leash. K9, I noticed how you quoted everything but the part where I said I didn't think me moving my dog would have made any difference. Smooth. The other dog was not on a leash and on his home turf. None of us saw him until he was almost on us. Believe me, I would have preferred not to be taking a leap of faith at all, but things like this happen sometimes. I don't promote taking arbitrary chances. I do promote trusting a well-socialised dog. How many people have I seen hauling their dog across a road as soon as they see another dog on the horizon? They are so frightened of something bad happening that if they do ever meet a dog inevitably their worst fears play out.

Thanks Miranda. Interesting. I have been charged in a similar way to what you have described twice. Both times I jerked my dog aside at the last moment and was rescued before the dog could recover, once by the dog's owner and another by haring it out of the dog's territory. I was very lucky. I don't think there is a lot anyone can do when a dog is charging. Unless you carry a stout stick.

K9: if they don't escalate past air snapping, what does this mean? I take it to mean they don't need to do anything else because whatever the pressure was has been removed. What do you take it to mean? Making contact? I would take that to mean the dog's warnings haven't been heeded. For the record, I don't personally see it go that far very often. Won't mention my own dogs as I've vowed off it. Why not? They are good terms and fair. More sensible than my terms, as it turns out. I was ready to break up a fight if it eventuated. I was ready to be bitten half to death in the process, in all honesty, because I wasn't sure how it would play but thought not well. I don't think pulling my dog away at the time would have made much differene except for perhaps presenting an easy target in an unbalanced dog, which is one of the reasons why I stopped doing it. I wasn't convinced at the time that my dog would not start a fight, as it happens, but sometimes I think it helps a relationship to take a leap of faith. I was right there if my leap of faith had fallen short, and ready to do whatever would have been necessary. The risk, I judged, was medium, no better or worse than if we did things my way. Well, I've heard from other people that there are better ways than the alpha way as well. You have to make your own judgements, which we all know. I do let my dogs call the shots sometimes. I am fully aware of when I do it and don't think that it's the evil a lot of people say it is. No more discussing my dog, but I would say I would be the best person to judge whether she is happy or stressed or whatever and why, seeing as she's been my best pal for the past 13 years. And that is the absolute last thing I'm saying on it.

Sorry, I think of starting fights and causing fights as different things. A hypothetical dog that is not one of mine or any I have known might start a fight by taking it beyond air snaps and making contact. A hypothetical dog that is not my own or any I have known might cause a fight they didn't intend by, say, staring directly when looking away might have made it all come to nothing. I think of starting a fight as deliberate and causing a fight as accidental. But hey, who am I to judge when the world is full of dog owners that think themselves better at reading dog body language than dogs are? Okay, that was unfair. I don't know what they think. I just accept my very human shortcomings.